| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Asharak |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 20:09:25
1346: Naval Battle of Lisen Sands.
Does anyone know more about this?
That's occur on the River Lis, but what else?
Who are the fighters? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Halidan |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 04:04:58
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Ed's reply about The Battle of Lisen Sands with three awesome post on "Ed 2010 thread p.102".    
Color me absolutly stunned. Very happy, but stunned by all the information that I missed at the end of 2010. That's what I get for having yet another procedure done on my back before our insurance co-pays reset on Jan 1.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention Asharak. I'd have certainly missed it otherwise. Now all I have to do is find a way to re-write my player briefings for my Harrowdale 1348DR campaign, and figure out a way to add much of this information to several of the character's backstories.
Fortunatly, the campaign has been more off than on this fall as I tend to my health, so I think I can manage to accomplish both without too much trouble.
Many thanks also the THO for serving as a most able information conduit and to Ed himself, who gave us such a wonderful sandbox to play in. |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 11:52:06
cool, many thanks for the notice!
Edit: wow, 6 + 3 postings! And it starts on page 101 for the scribes interested in more lore about River Lis region. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:11:04
Ed's reply about The Battle of Lisen Sands with three awesome post on "Ed 2010 thread p.102". |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 14:16:22
OK I got the source wrong but I was right about the battle....... |
| Asharak |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 18:44:48
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Time to ask Ed about this, in his thread. I have vague memories of this being discussed in a hallway at a Milwaukee-era GenCon (vague because I didn't take notes, darn it), and Ed saying then it was part of the struggle between Mulmaster and the other Moonsea ports (e.g. Zhentil Keep, Melvaunt, etc.) for control of the River Lis, but that both swamp monsters AND elves were involved in the fighting, because both of those groups quite rightly (Ed's opinion) were of the opinion that the Lis and its swamps were THEIR territory, not human. Barges and shallow-draft ships went up and down the Lis, aided by magic and sometimes hampered by magic (e.g. cast by the elves).
Anyway, that's what I remember, but Ed obviously knows all about this (hardly surprising, being as he created everything I've mentioned, probably including the battle).
BB
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Blueblade is dead-on correct, according to Ed (who is writing a proper reply for us all, but got delayed by that "rush" Realms work I mentioned).
More from him, ASAP.
love,
THO
|
| Halidan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 18:28:19
Like so many other of Ed's "throw-away" citations, I suspect that he intended the DM's to use this event as they like to improve their campaign. I doubt that Ed has some sort of master list of which ships particpated in the battle, which were sunk, who captained those ships, what acts of heroism (or desperation) were performeed during the battle, and what magic and treasurers can still be dug out of the sand banks of the River Lis at any given date.
This is what we, as DM's, are suposed to provide. It is, as they say, an excersize for the student. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 03:34:19
None of the Living City books has any references to the Lis that I could find. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:21:35
The River is only mentioned once in all three Raven's Bluff products, in the main sourcebook and the entry is in regards to the Orcs of Vastar and the Elves, who also apparently fought over the river. That conflict was too far back in the past to be what we are looking for. There is also this -
quote:
From the ToT Tantras Module
In the Dragon Reach area, Sembia will move quickly to seize Scardale from the Zhentilar, and both Hillsfar and Mulmaster will try to exploit the lack of Zhentish naval superiority in the Moonsea by attacking her shipping, blockading her harbor, and mustering warriors for attacks upon her. Mulmaster will firmly block the northern end of the River Lis by sinking old barges and rotting cogs and stationing six ships crammed with catapults and archers nearby. Passage from the Dragon Reach into the Moonsea will be temporarily impossible.
That would have been during the Avatar crisis, and probably immediately following the destruction of Zhentil Keep (not sure though - haven't really checked the timeline of the modules or those stories). Either way, it is about a decade late (again) for that battle.
I still think it is an errant entry that was supposed to be set in 1357, but whatever. Hopefully Ed will be able to clear this up.
|
| Snowblood |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 11:03:51
check in the old Ravens Bluff stuff from 2nd ed. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 11:03:16
In my researches on Lisenaar I vaguely remember a point where Mulmaster tried to establish a strangle hold at the Lis Mouth and the other Moonsea Cities ganged up & sank the fleet & pulled down the fortress. maybe this was that battle??? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 09:06:36
Questions for Ed Greenwood (2004) - Page 55quote:
Athenon
I have another geography question ... What's the River Lis like in the home Realms campaign? I've envisioned it as similar to a slightly cleaner, shorter Mississippi in terms of current and width (I'm from Louisiana so it's what I know). Would this be accurate at all?
quote:
THO
Athenon, you have the Lis correct. Let me quote from Ed’s unpublished ‘What Your Character Knows’ notes:
Much blood has been spilled over control of the Lis, but the terrain itself has defeated any longterm control beyond the “as far as the point of my blade/reach of my spells extends” sort.
The term ‘the Lisen Sands’ refers to treacherous marine navigation and flooded areas, not broad beaches or desert area. You recall brackish water from the freshwater swamps (fed by local streams and springs) emptying into a broad, shallow, VERY silty saltwater river that generates lots of oxbows, side-channels, quicksand, dunes (that unlike ‘desert dunes’ change only by water action, not wind, as they’re well-anchored with vegetation), standing dead ‘drowned’ trees, lots of choking vines and stunted wetland living trees (in short, large marshes with lots of ground cover for lurking outlaws and critters) . . . and everywhere insects, insects, clouds of stinging insects.
Through the heart of it all winds the broad, slow, mud-opaque-water Lis, sometimes impassable to deep-keeled ships, but never choked so much that water cannot pass from the Moonsea to the Dragonreach. Indeed, spring storms in particular (and fierce winds blowing up heading-south waves at all times of year) can generate ‘Scourings’ of the Lis that briefly give it depths of more than forty feet and a clear, straight channel. Usually, it’s 12 to 15 feet deep (with a soft-chocolate-mud bottom that will allow solid objects to readily pass or sink through it for about another six feet or so), and permanently cloudy ...
Questions for Ed Greenwood (2004) - Page 56
quote:
THO
The Lisen details came from Lanseril’s notes [Lanseril Snowmantle], because he spent some time in a hut very close to the west bank of the River Lis, being trained by a senior druid (and so knew all about the fauna, flora, and natural processes and cycles of the terrain right in front of him during his instruction). At a later time, we Knights journeyed to this area, and Ed agreed that Ian Hunter (who played Lanseril) could share this portion of his notes with the rest of us, to game-simulate Lanseril Snowmantle telling his fellow Knights what they were heading into.
So the Notes WERE encyclopaedic, but also had big gaps. I’ve seen the ‘Player Pack’ that Ed prepared for The Company of the Stag (one of his later library program groups: a chartered band of PC adventurers whose careers were fated to last for thirteen weekly four-hour play sessions), and it was some forty pages long, with an index. He gave the TSR designers a copy of it, as I recall ...
Many sources footnote "The Naval Battle of Lisen Sands" in 1346DR but otherwise provide no description. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 06:15:47
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
(dead link, Markus)
I like that idea. Is goot.
Thanks. I fixed the link soon after posting (it was one of those weird, two-part URL's that Candlekeep gags on). Its working for me now - I happen to really like that pic - I would use that to frighten some of my players.
Still trying to find more info on the OP, BTW.
I have a feeling this is an 'artifact' left-over from some of the early (1e) Realm's 'clumsiness' regarding dating. I thought (at first) it could have to do with the difference between CR (Cormyr-reckoning) and DR (Dale-reckoning), which IIRC was implemented in 2e in order to cover some of the historic discrepancies.
EDIT:
I 'think' Ed's home campaign started in 1347 - that's the year of the battle AND the year the Knights of Myth Drannor were commissioned. HOWEVER, reading through some of the history sections of the 1e/2e booklets it appears that most of the events surrounding his players (which are detailed in the novel series of the same name) were assigned to 1357 in the official, TSR-owned setting.
I think this is a problem of some of Ed's home-campaign dates slipping through the cracks, when there seems to be a ten-year discrepancy between the two.
In 1357, there was FIERCE naval fighting throughout the Moonsea, and Zhentil Keep emerged the winner after a decisive victory against Melvaunt and Mulmaster, leaving them in control of the moonsea waters (and obviously the outlet of the Lis into the Moonsea). Also note at least four ships 'went missing' just prior to this naval war, all traveling up the Dragonreach toward the Moonsea. Three ships mentioned in one entry, and the fourth later-on.
Ergo, I think the '1347' date is a carry-over from Ed, and its actually supposed to be '1357' in the published Realms, and is a reference to the naval war held between all of the Moonsea cities.
Just my opinion, of course - hopefully THO, or someone more knowledgeable then me about the FR dating-snafu's, could spread some more light on thsis |
| Asharak |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 13:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dewaint
BTW: Looked at the WoTC "Grand History of the Realms" found nothing about this Battle. Currently the only source appears to be 2e TSR1085a Running the Realms, right?
Yes, I've seen that nowhere else. |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 11:25:07
intriguing idea.
Maybe a forgotten old elven graveyard guarded by a baelnorn? Who in turn created or summoned a strange fey creature to take care that no one can get hold on the region and by chance find this graveyard/ imprisioned thing or whatever?
Am wondering if this idea can be supported by anything mentioned on maps of the Arcane Age, Empire of the Elves?
ok, but how to link it to the Naval Battle of Lisen Sands 1346DR?
BTW: Looked at the WoTC "Grand History of the Realms" found nothing about this Battle. Currently the only source appears to be 2e TSR1085a Running the Realms, right?
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 05:27:25
(dead link, Markus)
I like that idea. Is goot.
Something fey lives in the Lis and makes the river it's home. Maybe it's an old elven graveyard? Maybe it's a bunch of swampy dryad things. Or just a territorial druid circle. Maybe even Aquaman ... I'm not a superhero geek but old AM seems like a terribly useless superhero (wow, he swims well and talks with fishies), import him into the Realms and give him a job on the Lis. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 05:18:36
I would hazard to guess that something maintains the 'swampy' conditions around the River, which is why no-one - archwizard or wealthy warlord - has been able to create a stable surface to build upon. I picture MANY trying, over the years, just to watch whatever they build eventually sink into the mud like everything before it.
And now I'm picturing some kind of 'Archfey of the Marshes', either dwelling in this region, or having made some sort of bargain with the Elves of Cormanthyr in times-past.
Egads! I think I just invented a Feywild version of Swampthing.
(Yes, I know that's a picture of Manthing, NOT Swampthing, but am I the only one that thinks those two need to exchange names?)  |
| Malcolm |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 21:32:22
I'd say it's past time to nudge Ed about this, in his thread. The battle is obviously something he devised, that not much has been said about in official printed Realmslore...but I'm pretty certain it's sitting there in Ed's head. Or notes he sent to TSR, that never got published. He sent them a LOT, remember, and they have always cherry-picked this or that tidbit to publish for whatever project they're currently doing...
|
| Halidan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 18:02:56
I've struggled over this one for years. I have never found any citation for the event other than listings in FR timelines.
While it of course appears in the Grand History of the Realms, it's initial appearance is in TSR1085a Running the Realms by Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grub. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 17:49:33
tsr1085 2E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting - book: Running the Realms p. 18 |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 13:51:27
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
1346: Naval Battle of Lisen Sands.
mhhh... where does this date and event cames from? So far was not able to find the source of this note. Can you help Asharak?
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 16:57:31
For fortifications, there isn't anything in canon, however the sea elven nation of Selu'Maraar takes up the entire Dragon Reach, up to the southern terminus of the Lis. They're described as a militaristic, somewhat paranoid culture, so I find it inconceivable that they wouldn't have fortifications along their northern border to guard against an attack by the aquatic creatures of the Moonsea. Exactly how big and well-maintained those forts would be would differ from campaign to campaign, depending partly on how often groups from the Moonsea sortied south, and other factors. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 23:03:30
After a bit more thought about the Lis (and looking at the map linked near the top of this page) ...
Do massive volumes of moving water create tidal surges and whirlpools (twice) each day in or near the river?
How about strong winds across large bodies of water being funnelled into this narrow river passage bordered by trees?
Does the river swell and washout during storms?
Do any watery creatures or little gods claim, inhabit, or patrol (on or in) the river?
Is there any exciting loot (or shipwrecks!) buried under the watery swampy muck?quote:
Hoondatha
... given the re-worked Lis geography described above, what might be some plausible reasons no bridges or cities have been built? ... it's entirely possible that the naval battle developed out of someone trying to do just that, and at least one other someone violently objecting.
No large cities because:quote:
The Hooded One
... Ed set it up this way ... (that is, the Lis having swampy surroundings [so no large fortifications possible on or near it], and shallow, many ever-shifting channels) ... ships DO get through ...
Cause of naval war? I think probably exactly what you said, Hoondatha. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 22:30:23
I find all of this discussion fascinating, because I was never able to find any references whatsoever as to what kind of river the Lis was, or the surrounding territory. I ended up making it a deep, fast-flowing river pouring down from the Moonsea into the Dragon Reach, with the surrounding territory being rough but dry.
I did this primarily just to be annoying to the group I was DM'ing, since they were a bunch of sea elves of Selu'Maraar trying to get to the Moonsea. In this version, a wide river, very strong current, and complete lack of fords provides an equally-effective barrier to land caravans, but now that I think of it doesn't answer the question why someone hasn't built a bridge across it, or founded a city at the Moonsea mouth.
If I might be permitted to slightly derail the thread for a moment, given the re-worked Lis geography described above, what might be some plausible reasons no bridges or cities have been built? And to bring things slightly more back on-thread, it's entirely possible that the naval battle developed out of someone trying to do just that, and at least one other someone violently objecting. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 19:45:03
Hmmm. Thanx for your input, THO/Ed. I appreciate the Ed's logic, it is well thought out and consistent, a fair implementation of a good idea. It does make overland/caravan adventuring more vital.
Though I can't help quipping in that a city (or indeed, two cities on opposite banks or even underwater) attempting to maintain a military/economic hold across the Lis would provide plenty of juicy adventuring opportunities as well. Do the players submit their vessels to Lissian inspection, confiscation, paperwork, delays, and taxation or do they dare to run the gauntlet? How difficult and risky (and expensive) would it be to hire a smuggler willing to take them or their contraband/valuable cargo upriver? Would the Moonsea cities ally in the cause of preventing Sembia (Yhaunn), Calaunt, or Tantras from attempting to strangle the Lis?
Swamps have never been enough to thwart the dreams of elves and men before (especially those who command magic and elementals and Thayvian Bombards) - not when endless shiploads of gold can be gained for the effort. The city of Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul has been a rather exciting place to be throughout history, strategically dominant, difficult to seige, and openly coveted by all her neighbours. I'm wondering if aggressive Sembian-Shadovar expansion up the coast might make an interesting follow up for my neo-Phlan campaign ... it could all start so easily with building a wall around Elmwood and establishing a permanent garrison "for their protection" ... |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 18:59:12
Strange, perhaps, but Ed set it up this way, Arik (that is, the Lis having swampy surroundings [so no large fortifications possible on or near it], and shallow, many ever-shifting channels) to keep overland caravan trade heavy and vital throughout the region, because it makes for so many more adventuring possibilities (without taking away the naval ones, and the Mulmaster vs. Calaunt or any/all of the Moonsea cities ones, either, because ships DO get through).
Ed works all of this out, which is why the published Realms always "works best" when designers and writers work with Ed. He planned it all...
love,
THO |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 14:30:40
I couldn't find any real mention of the River Lis in any of the sources I cited above. A Grand Tour of the Realms (Faerûn) and The Moonsea do describe some activities along the Lis, largely concerning lucrative trade and piracy across it (mostly forged metals, raw minerals and ores, gemstones, exotic furs, and slaves), and the significance of pastoral Elmwood as an occasionally garrisoned waystation port. But very little of a military nature is described, nothing indicating any great naval battles across this river. Mulmaster and Hillsfar and Zhentil Keep have historically maintained dominant naval presences (and naval conflicts) throughout the Moonsea; most piracy is indeed carried out under the flags of these cities, pirates from the Sea of Fallen Stars are rarely seen in the Moonsea region.
This seems strange, as this river should be as strategically significant as the Panama or Suez (well, maybe not quite that important, but I see the mouth of this river being an ideal place to position a city like Istanbul) - I'd think militant city-states above and below the Lis would make some effort to establish real fortifications along this riverway so they might control (or tax) all traffic across it. No doubt there's always a pile of military ships to accost vessels entering the Moonsea. |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 10:17:33
from the top of my head Lashan's raids were aound 1355/56 DR.
Agreed, most likely pirates were involved.
But maybe it was a clash with Elves? I mean 1344 The Retreat from Cormanthor was decided, a year after the Battle of Lisen Sands. And it is known that Sembia tried many times to start ruthless activities against the elves. Maybe the battle of Lisen Sands has its origin here?
Sembia hired pirates vessels to raid on Elves encampments or traderoutes, and Mulmaster geting nervous?
BTW: We had the Battle of River Rising about 1340 DR with Sembians, dalelands and a Cult of the Dragon Cell.
Just a bit of brainstorming
|
| Quale |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 15:00:25
likely that the local pirates were involved, or it was a part of Lashan's raids (too early?), or that stagskulled lich raised the ramshackle ghostships from Vastar |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 13:50:34
no worries
Was a bit surpised to have found only one tidbit of lore related to the River Lis Region:
Moonsea Shores :
"... From Mirrormoss Bay (to the elves, Neirthoura, "Stars-In-The-Water"), where the Dragon Reach narrows to its northern end, ships of even deep draft can sail up the broad river Lis (to the elves, Nuathlis) to Lisenmouth, and to the deeper, darker waters of the Moonsea. ..."
Am afraid nothing about the Naval Battle of Lisen Sands
Maybe there are more EEE's that I don't have knowledge of ?!
Everwinking Eye copies I actually possess:
* As Cold as Bare Fingers
* A Visit to Melvaunt
* Moonsea Shores
* Sevenecho, Then and Now
* Inside Thentia
* Temples, Cults And Idle Gossip in Thentia
* The Pride of The North
* Adventures in Zhentil Keep
Am wondering now if more columns were made public at Polyhedron?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 18:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dewaint
Will post the relevant paragraph this evening, if it is ok.
As long as it's not too much text, and is properly cited. |
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