| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 14:31:15
So there was this book called Tome of Magic which states that some parts of Karsus' soul remained in the material plane, and that few binders are able to access his powers.
It was also stated that his powers are known as real-magic, in other words, magic that is different from the Weave/Shadoweave, and cannot be broken by ordinary means.
Does anybody have more info. about this?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 11:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertSakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Me I'm not saying they introduced Amaunator with the intent of bringing him back, just that they started planting the seeds for his return before it happened (late 3E FR products) - (which is a good way of doing things IMO)
If they had planned it all along, they would have talked to the guys making the Baldur's Gate CRPG game, cause your character gets to meet the restless divine spirit of Amaunator and put it to rest, so that would have probably been done in a bit of a different way. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 01:33:21
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I find fleshy reshaping of loose unexplored lorestrings to be more "consistent" than inventing entirely new lore from scratch. The rules and settings must evolve, better to add depth to what exists than create new material which would undoubdtedly be even more objectionable to fans. Sakkors and Amaunator were a few of the old potholes that needed filling.
Agreed ---to some extent. A well-executed expansion of an old or lost lore is fun to read. Though I am not averse to occasionally seeing new materials. What really matters is how it is done and if it makes any sense. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 00:11:05
I find fleshy reshaping of loose unexplored lorestrings to be more "consistent" than inventing entirely new lore from scratch. The rules and settings must evolve, better to add depth to what exists than create new material which would undoubdtedly be even more objectionable to fans. Sakkors and Amaunator were a few of the old potholes that needed filling. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 23:58:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Ditto for Sakkors -- its first mention was building on existing lore (the Fall of Netheril) and adding a bit of nifty detail to a newly-described area. I highly doubt that when Steven Schend wrote Sea of Fallen Stars, he knew that WotC (not TSR!) was going to hire another writer more than a decade later to lift that enclave back out of the water.
Indeed. These were largely lingering pieces of Realmslore back in 2e. As I see it, they've just simply been selected to be expanded upon now. It's really not all that different from when other pieces of background lore have been updated into 4e.
I think it's just because of the relative "Netheril-ness" of Sakkors, that some are immediately inclined to believe there was "some deep purpose" behind it's prominence in 4e.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 20:45:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sure that each new piece of lore has some inkling of an idea behind it - I VERY rarely ever throw and idea 'out there' without having a little thought as to where it might lead.
The idea that they 'just make stuff up' is pretty scary, to be honest - I sure hope that isn't what happens. The Realms are very logical and consistent (for the most part) world, and nothing should ever be added without looking at both where that lore may have come from, and where it may go.
Now, I am also equally sure that 90% of what they think-of never makes it into the official sources (and in Ed's case 99%). The usual 'cut for space' applies, but so does just plain self-restraint (a designer and/or author can't put every little detail into there stories, even though they've probably thought it all through). They may have it in the back of their minds that they left a certain 'thread' hanging somewhere that they can go back and run with later, but in many cases most of those never get used (which is why we have a back-log of NDAs several miles long).
What's wrong with them just making something up? Some bits of lore can exist without a grand plan in place, and it doesn't detract from the setting at all.
Why can't we mention a mysterious happenstance occurring to Bahb the NPC, without it having to tie into some grand plot? They used to do that all the time in 2E, with the Current Clack offerings.
Sakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Ditto for Sakkors -- its first mention was building on existing lore (the Fall of Netheril) and adding a bit of nifty detail to a newly-described area. I highly doubt that when Steven Schend wrote Sea of Fallen Stars, he knew that WotC (not TSR!) was going to hire another writer more than a decade later to lift that enclave back out of the water. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 20:08:32
I'm sure that each new piece of lore has some inkling of an idea behind it - I VERY rarely ever throw and idea 'out there' without having a little thought as to where it might lead.
The idea that they 'just make stuff up' is pretty scary, to be honest - I sure hope that isn't what happens. The Realms are very logical and consistent (for the most part) world, and nothing should ever be added without looking at both where that lore may have come from, and where it may go.
Now, I am also equally sure that 90% of what they think-of never makes it into the official sources (and in Ed's case 99%). The usual 'cut for space' applies, but so does just plain self-restraint (a designer and/or author can't put every little detail into there stories, even though they've probably thought it all through). They may have it in the back of their minds that they left a certain 'thread' hanging somewhere that they can go back and run with later, but in many cases most of those never get used (which is why we have a back-log of NDAs several miles long). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 19:08:23
There's a difference between looking at where the 4E groundwork was laid, and assuming that every extant bit of lore was planted with the specific intent of following up on it years (if not a decade or more!) later. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 18:49:32
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
Well they did start putting more info and prestige classes about Amaunator being reborn through Lathander, or however it is they relate them, in the later 3E FR products, which coincides with production of 4E, so it's easy to assume that it was likely part of the plan to bring back Amaunator in 4E.
THIS
You will note that during the final four years of the 3e product line, we saw the products starting to shift (both in lore and mechanics - ToB: Book of Nine Swords was actually cited as such a product by official types) toward what we got in 4e. In fact, the entire 3-part adventure arc at the end of 3eFR was geared to get people into the "Shar is after Mystra" state-of-mind.
In hindsight, its pretty easy to go back through everything and see where they started their 4e agenda.
Not a rant, just an observation. It really doesn't matter anymore... 'spilled milk' and all that. |
| Kno |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 16:23:39
Only what is in Serpent Kingdoms, creyzi if you think about the Serpent that appeared to Vecna, they don't seem the same. Zehir is poison, the other is magic. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 13:16:35
Let's just refer to him/it as "The World Serpent", that was it's original name...I dunno, but are there any more lore related to "The World Serpent"? |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 18:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
Well they did start putting more info and prestige classes about Amaunator being reborn through Lathander, or however it is they relate them, in the later 3E FR products, which coincides with production of 4E, so it's easy to assume that it was likely part of the plan to bring back Amaunator in 4E. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 17:32:49
Well, they also brought in Asmodeus as a god, who is known as 'The Serpent' (I believe the final real issue of Dragon Magazine covered this point). So while trying to eliminate 'unnecessary redundancy', FR got TWO MORE 'serpent gods'.
Because 47 just wasn't enough...... 
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I played through the Storm of Zehir, he's an interloper
THEY LIE. 
This is why I have never played any FR VG games - they are full of false-lore (none of it is considered canonical). I don't need my head filled with that garbage - I have enough trouble keeping my own views separated from canon. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 14:38:27
INterloper? Does that mean that he's the Serpent? Or some other god in the FR?
From what I know, the Serpent was divided into two gods....one in FR, the other one in Greyhawk setting.
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| Kno |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 17:07:10
I played through the Storm of Zehir, he's an interloper |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 23:56:36
They Did.
His name is Zehir.
'Nuff said. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 11:55:27
Woopie, maybe they'll resurrect the Serpent (sarrukh overgod) next time...I certainly hear that quite often. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:07:00
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Skilled designers always plant seeds which might eventually bear fruit. Ed has a famous quote about creating three new questions for every one you answer (though I can't find it at the moment). I wonder where that other Netheril city floated off too ...
True. But not everything is a seed... If it was, every single kingdom that ever existed in the Realms could potentially come back, because they all still have ruins!  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 00:41:58
Back to Karsus (sorta) -
What's the deal with Wulgreth? Who was he before he got airbombed and liched by a glob of heavy magic? Was he already an arcanist? Or "just some guy"? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:32:46
Skilled designers always plant seeds which might eventually bear fruit. Ed has a famous quote about creating three new questions for every one you answer (though I can't find it at the moment). I wonder where that other Netheril city floated off too ... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Karsus is sure to come back. Why would WotC leave a residue of him in the form of stone if they deem otherwise?! We've already seen the pattern: the discovery of the ruins of Imaskar heralded the return of empire in the forms of Deep and High Imaskar; the surviving Netherese enclaves - Sakkors, that one in Neverwinter, and others - had been mentioned before, hints given before Shade returned to Toril. WotC usually leaves a part of something (however small or big that part is) evident when they see the need to use that something again in the near or distant future...
Besides, I got a 'tip' that Karsus's return is nigh.
One of which was the return of Amaunator. 
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
a) sheer coincidence that a bit of prior lore could be connected to a current event.
or
b) someone looking at existing lore and deciding to expand on one of the countless random bits of lore left in play by skilled designers such as Ed or Steven Schend.
I think any other interpretation is reading too much into it. Sakkors, for example, was mentioned several years before 3E was even mentioned. I doubt they were planning on Sakkors being raised 10 years later when it was first mentioned. Kemp wasn't even writing for WotC when Steven wrote Sea of Fallen Stars -- so it's pretty unlikely they asked Steven to write that into there so a guy they'd not even looked at yet could use it in his second trilogy.
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| Dracons |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 21:33:04
Eh. I use to see threads about people bragging about killing Larloch or Eliminster or various gods. Long ago, and on other messageboards. Most responses were ether
1: Your DM didn't do it right.
2: So?
3: OMG! THAT SO COOOL WHAT BUILD! Can I worship you now!?
Though my personal fave rant was by my friend D, who's lies.... all the time. From his claims that Wizards of the coast crowned him the world's greatest DM, that Wizards of the coast sell DnD books under a different label on east side of USA titled Wizards of the EAST coast, and they have a bunch of new rules for the hard core gamer, like you must roll this way or you die, then there was the rant about how Akira Toryama loved his short story so much about the Saiyans making robot bodyguards that are always ten times more powerful then the person they're guarding, and how one came back and forced Vegeta to always work out so he be more powerful, that he even sent D a notice declaring it as offical lore and that's how it is, just Akira doesn't have time to anime it at all. (I know bulk of you have no idea what the above means. To put it in Forgotten Realms term, a saiyan loves being strong and fighting all the time, that the likelyhood that they'd allow someone to just be that much more powerful all the time based on their strength with no chance of winning is like Szass Tam giving up magic and allowing first level fighters to boss him around. It's like Bane going ordering his clerics to leave Tormites and all LG and CG people alone. It's like Zhentarim allowing a pheasent nobody more sales and profits from selling sheep dung then they can. It just doesn't happen.
That being said, Tarrasque, especally from 3.5 is easy to beat. Even tenth level people can beat him if they're prepared. Trio of dragons? Maybe.
This is of course, assuming all people are keeping an eye out for this. Karsus did it without any knowing about it, not even the Goddess of Magic herself. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 19:12:52
The Karsus's Avatar spell in itself isn't all that useful; it's 12th level, so you need to be a level 40-something supragenius just to understand it, and you'd need to reshape the laws of the Weave to allow 12th level magic (even if just for a one-shot spellcasting), and, incidentally, you'd need some rather exotic components like body parts harvested from a number of gold dragons and the Tarrasque. The other gods (most especially the current version of Mystra) would likely oppose you every step of the way. You won't be fighting three gold dragons, you'll be fighting thirty, maybe with Bahamut cheering from the sidelines. As terrifying as the Tarrasque is, it'd be a whole lot worse with an avatar of Talos or an angry Titan chained to it's back. You'd already have to be a god by the time you accomplished all these minor chores, casting the avatar spell would probably be a useless formality.
I haven't seen any PCs bragging about slaying Fzoul, Szass, or Larloch, though undoubtedly some have tried. I have heard reports, in the earliest days, of PCs attacking Asmodeus ... though it's quite unlikely they'd attempt anything so brashly idiotic today.
Karsus might already be an active god, just a dreaming one without an avatar. Maybe his Avatar spell (subject to Wish-spell sorts of complexity, and more) was perfectly successful; he does indeed have a divine avatar, it's just a big dumb object carved out of stone. His body may sleep like those of lost gods floating the Astral seas, but unlike them he's in an "active" world with some inhabitants who still remember him ... he could be sipping energy from "his" Weave (or even subtly manipulating or "tainting" it, so he might seize control when he awakens) and subconsciously researching his Karsus's Reawakening spell as we speak. The Karsus Interregnum will soon be ended ... and he might "default" back to his role as God of Magic and the Weave (leading to a bit of an Ao Referee call, another unravelled weave, and a fight to the death between gods) - a perfect pretense for introducing the 5E/RSE game mechanics.
For all I know, it is in fact Karsus who maintains the shaky Weave during RSEs like ToT and Spellplague. Mystra's Not Home, right? But good old Karsus is still connected, still has all the admin passwords (or has hacked his way in), and is still sitting right where we (or Ao) left him. Maybe wild magic might be a symptom or even an invention of Karsus's dreaming being manifested on a divine scale (and thus an unpredictable recurring nuisance beyond Mystra's ability to permanently eradicate). Maybe wild-magic goes through long periods of dormancy followed by periods of brief but intense activity ... and maybe it is a sign that Karsus is slowly awakening. Larloch might be using Karsus's Weave as his hidden source of power whenever Mystra's not around.
(On this note, I really hope we don't ever get some kind of Karsus-Larloch hybrid being, a Realmsified Raistlin-Fistandantulus creature regurgitated from previous lore. I'd take up the habit of book burning if I read about that, I tell ya.)
Karsus might also be insane or permanently stoned. Karsus 2.0 may not be at all recognizable, he might even be a crazy unique sylvan druid/archmage kinda god who's portfolio and very essence are shaped more by his millenia of weave-connected slumber than his puny few centuries of human lifetime or his brief popcorn flash of ascension. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 18:59:32
I don't want this thread to degrade, but I have to really look a all this 'bringing back stuff that's long gone' with a heavy sigh.
It almost leads me to believe that the century time-jump was intended to give them more 'past' from which to milk from. 
What ever happened to 'imagination' and 'originality'? Weren't they once part of D&D?
{Heavy Sigh}
(I told you that was coming) |
| Dracons |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 18:47:31
Hm. I wonder how many posts are going to happen the day Karsus is released bragging that they slayed him.
Plus, are they going to include his most famous spell...? Allowing PC's to become Gods?
Maybe that's how 4th edition is going to have god characters play out. kill karsus to get the ultimate spell, now improved to include knowledge on how to use your divine post. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 17:39:26
quote:
dennis
Karsus is sure to come back. Why would WotC leave a residue of him in the form of stone if they deem otherwise?! We've already seen the pattern...
Well, it could very well be that Karsus is going to return. Of course, given Karsus's unexpected popularity with the fans, it might turn out that he'll only be as a tool to reinvoke interest in D&D when sales are down; until then he causes plenty of speculation and interest simply by remaining where he is.
Most of the information about Karsus was set in stone, so to speak, by the Netheril freebie campaign. I note that the product included a number of other carefully planted seeds ... for example, one of the (two) cities that escaped Netheril's destruction returned as Shade. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 11:31:54
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Karsus is sure to come back. Why would WotC leave a residue of him in the form of stone if they deem otherwise?! We've already seen the pattern: the discovery of the ruins of Imaskar heralded the return of empire in the forms of Deep and High Imaskar; the surviving Netherese enclaves - Sakkors, that one in Neverwinter, and others - had been mentioned before, hints given before Shade returned to Toril. WotC usually leaves a part of something (however small or big that part is) evident when they see the need to use that something again in the near or distant future...
Besides, I got a 'tip' that Karsus's return is nigh.
One of which was the return of Amaunator. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 07:09:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My own little chirp on OP:
Karsus's magic (certainly his Avatar spell, at least) actually worked. As brief as it may have been, he did indeed use arcane magic to become a god. This suggests to me that 1) Netherese Arcanists were right in believing that the divine power of the gods was just advanced wizard magic...
Of course they're right. They're nearly always right when it comes to magic-related things. Only their deaths are not right.
Karsus is sure to come back. Why would WotC leave a residue of him in the form of stone if they deem otherwise?! We've already seen the pattern: the discovery of the ruins of Imaskar heralded the return of empire in the forms of Deep and High Imaskar; the surviving Netherese enclaves - Sakkors, that one in Neverwinter, and others - had been mentioned before, hints given before Shade returned to Toril. WotC usually leaves a part of something (however small or big that part is) evident when they see the need to use that something again in the near or distant future...
Besides, I got a 'tip' that Karsus's return is nigh. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 19:05:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Zireael[/i
I wonder why the bloodletting. The abilities are neat and the arrogance is just perfect!
Likely because alot of fan art has shown Karsus to be melting with blood, oozing, rathern then turn to stone like lore.
Easilly reconcilable.
The power-surge made him swell to immense size, but when that power fled his mortal form, it 'bled out', turning him into a lifeless (dessicated) husk.
Quite literally, blood=life - what we see in those pieces of art is the physical manifestation of the Radiant energy 'bleeding' out of him. Then when it was all gone (and he died), all that was left was an inert chunk of rock... which is what every 'dead god' becomes.
The one major difference in what happened to Karsus and what happens to other gods is that Karsus did not perish in the Outer planes, where such thing are supposed to occur (gods can only be permanently killed within their domains). Karsus never got the chance to create a domain of his own - his domain became the prime material, which is usually just reserved for demi-powers.
Symbolically, the Netherease Empire could have been his brief Domain, and it collapsed with his death. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 18:06:30
My own little chirp on OP:
Karsus's magic (certainly his Avatar spell, at least) actually worked. As brief as it may have been, he did indeed use arcane magic to become a god. This suggests to me that 1) Netherese Arcanists were right in believing that the divine power of the gods was just advanced wizard magic, and 2) the 12th level Weave magic that Karsus accessed had reached (or passed) the threshold where arcane and divine magics blur together (each so powerful and versatile that they can no longer be distinguished, perhaps both drawing from the same cosmic "source"). Real-Magic (whatever it may be called) is not shackled by the limits imposed on present Weave and divine magics, it could certainly be thought of as a "third magic" which isn't required to play nice with the other two. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 17:39:59
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Zireael[/i
I wonder why the bloodletting. The abilities are neat and the arrogance is just perfect!
Likely because alot of fan art has shown Karsus to be melting with blood, oozing, rathern then turn to stone like lore. |
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