| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| D-brane |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 06:52:43
I know there's the whole issue of "godlessness" for the Imaskari people for most of their history. But did they, at any time in their existence prior to their return in 4e, construct a pantheon of gods to worship? Or maybe some Imaskari-derived otherworldly-constructs/entities they might offer thoughts or oaths to in times of need?
Also, how would you handle the concept of divine worship among those Imaskari who might not wholly accept the "godless" doctrine of their rulers? What gods would you see these Imaskari (heretics I suppose you could call them?) praying to?
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| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 03:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dennis: The Imaskari Arificers challenged gods. So did the Sojournor (off-stage: He makes light of the fact that 'other beings' will come looking for the missing Celstials and Fiends). As an individual he may have been more powerful then any one Artificer, but I doubt his knowledge/power exceeded the culmination of ALL Imaskari knowledge and power. He was strong enough, I think, to have given Halaster or Larloch pause (IMHO), had they met.
Point taken. Much like saying one Elminster is unlikely to win against Larloch. But a hundred Elminsters surely will.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the Imaskari had devloped a similar magic to Weavetaps - the lore surrounding their interaction with Pandorym demonstrates their ability and willingness to bind immensely powerful extra-planer entities, and the lore regarding the Godwall seems to indicate they were able to adjust Toril's Weave (its set of rules) to their own ends.
It's a shame that so little is known of the lost Imaskar. Maybe the reason WotC 'resurrected' Deep and High Imaskar is to shed light to the ambiguities and mysteries of the old empire. |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 22:56:13
leucrotta, that's like the werebear pantheon |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 18:16:14
Weird that I missed that then - I've re-read that one numerous times (the Perytons are cross-referenced in at least three EE's).
The stuff in there on the Leucrotta pantheon is especially intriguing. 
@Dennis: The Imaskari Arificers challenged gods. So did the Sojournor (off-stage: He makes light of the fact that 'other beings' will come looking for the missing Celstials and Fiends). As an individual he may have been more powerful then any one Artificer, but I doubt his knowledge/power exceeded the culmination of ALL Imaskari knowledge and power. He was strong enough, I think, to have given Halaster or Larloch pause (IMHO), had they met.
I think the Imaskari had devloped a similar magic to Weavetaps - the lore surrounding their interaction with Pandorym demonstrates their ability and willingness to bind immensely powerful extra-planer entities, and the lore regarding the Godwall seems to indicate they were able to adjust Toril's Weave (its set of rules) to their own ends. |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 10:43:32
what's a Weavetap exactly, don't remember
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which EE was that in? 
the Thar part, origins of perytons |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 06:57:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
After all, if the Sojourner can build a Weavetap, why couldn't an Imaskari Artificer?
Simple: because compared to each of the deceased artificers, he's far older, wiser, and more powerful.
Oh, wait, here's a better answer: because he has three stupid, scaly pets.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 23:32:55
Which EE was that in?
Not sure about the Torm thing, but we do have a core Bane now, which is a pretty good 'out' for weird, conflicting lore (In other words, Bane the Unclean could be core Bane which an Imaskari could easily have been aware of).
Problem with that entry is that we have an Imaskari mentioned after there is no more Imaskar, and since that was written before the (silly, IMHO) lore about deep Imaskar was added, it obviously isn't a reference to them, either.
So he has to be a survivor, since anyone born after the fall would be called something else (Mulhorandi, Semphari, Shou, Solonese, etc, etc..) Considering how old Halaster is, without having to become a Lich, I think the Imaskari had figured out a way to copy the immortality of the gods.
'Forced Chosen'... hmmmm... that has possibilities...
If the Imaskari could block gods, and capture gods (Elder Evils), and perhaps even create gods, then stealing their power should have been an easy thing, I would imagine.
Now I'm picturing a younger Halaster standing in front of a protective circle and pentagram, arms outspread, drawing-in power from some lesser divine being (now long-forgotten), who is apparently in agony.
After all, if the Sojourner can build a Weavetap, why couldn't an Imaskari Artificer?
So many Realms, so little time...... |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 12:08:00
I'd like to see your take on it Sage, if you find the time lol
I forgot the Deep Imaskari gods, but they just confirm the speculations above (Mystra, Shar, Grumbar, Chauntea - fits with the Rashemi tradition theory)
Edit: I've found something weird about Bane in Elminster's Ecologies
quote:
... and so it was that the Khala of Imaskar did serve
Bane the Unclean ...
Obviously this was post-Imaskar cause Torm is also mentioned, then it possibly confirms Bane's connection with Druaga ... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 08:14:14
I'm looking forward to it, Sage... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 06:48:19
I've been allowing both Quale's and my own thoughts on the nature and concept of a construct-god for the Imaskari foster in the dark depths of my mind for the last few days.
Along with a few ideas I've drawn from elsewhere, I'm starting to put together an alternate model for such an artificial deity, which I hope will be of either interest or use to some, when I eventually present it here.
More to come. Just remember to take into account the random effects of SageTime!  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 05:08:59
Just a thought....
I think it was Troy, or Clayton in one of their books, or perhaps someone else, who once said that the Netherese stood on the shoulders of giants (figuratively and literally). If the Imaskari are more powerful than the Neths, I wonder on whose shoulders did they stand? The gods, mayhap...? The lesser ones at least? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Oct 2010 : 06:46:00
Canonically, the Imaskari may not have worshipped gods, but they were certainly aware of MANY gods, some not even native to Realmspace. The Desert of Desolation supplement has several ruins with 'shrines' and 'temples' (museums and research facilities?) to a slew of gods from a dozen different pantheons.
HOWEVER, those ruins date from the period of the 'survivor states', and what we could have had there was a cultural pendulum effect; after their problems with divine beings, survivors may have turned to religion with a new fury.
In my own homebrew, I also did something with Aoskar. However, I have it where 'skar' is a Mujhari word for 'child', and the tribe that wandered into the Raurin basin followed their leader Ima and established a new settlement at the sight of an ancient batrachi temple. Ergo, Ima-Skar literally translates to "Ima's Children", which is how they viewed themselves.
I'll let you guys figure out what Ao-Skar means. 
And no, that wasn't his original (unpronouncable) Batrachi name - that's just what the Imaskari called him.  |
| Quale |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 15:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril and dennis
I like this alot.
Good examples, Quale. I wouldn't rule out the possibilities. If the Netherese, who were predominantly atheists, had among them the worshipers of Selune and Shar and perhaps some other gods as well, I don't see any reason why the Imaskari wouldn't have the same, considering that their culture - which put the experimentation and use of magic above all else - was much like Netheril's.
Thanks.
Actually, I don't think the Netherese were predominantly atheists. First there was quite a difference between Low Netheril and the flying cities. Then the flying cities were divided cause every archwizard had their own personal thoughts on the matter. In lots of the flying cities ''atharism'' was fashionable among the elite, usually reserved for the archizard's close circle of followers. Imaskar was more easterly despotic, where such philosophy was decreed by the ruler.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, this kinda mirrors my own thoughts for possible "gods" that the Imaskari can worship. It plays on Voltaire's "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him." Plus, it's an inherent showing off of the Imaskari contempt for all-things sacredly divine. It makes a mockery of the concept of gods and faith.
...
Any chance you could elaborate further on your idea for this, Quale?
Voltaire, that is brilliant Sage. I've already posted small parts of that campaign, explaining it more would take dozens of pages. So not mentioning the connections between Aoskar, Imaskar, Shekelor, the Faction War, the Avatar Crisis, the Dawn Cataclysm, Ao, the phoenix-like planewalker god mentioned in Planes of Chaos, the Black Diamond myth, the Far Realm, Inphirblau ...
Aoskar was designed by the Expansionists. I've added that their origins are in Imaskar, later when we bought Golarion, their history was expanded to Azlant. They believed that Sigil needs to evolve and improve for the future. The Aoskar construct tapped in the Astral conduits accumulating divine essences, which they considered just as another form of energy. Then the joining of a fey spirit and an imaskari soul possessed the constuct (kind of kalashtar-like). Only when they improved the construct to draw the energy from the corpses in the Astral, they were noticed by Anubis. And from there the troubles started. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 01:35:32
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Aoskar, this one must be, in my games I made him into a god-like construct of the Imaskari.
Actually, this kinda mirrors my own thoughts for possible "gods" that the Imaskari can worship. It plays on Voltaire's "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him." Plus, it's an inherent showing off of the Imaskari contempt for all-things sacredly divine. It makes a mockery of the concept of gods and faith.
...
Any chance you could elaborate further on your idea for this, Quale? |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 19:00:22
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Aoskar, this one must be, in my games I made him into a god-like construct of the Imaskari.
I like this alot. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 18:33:40
Good examples, Quale. I wouldn't rule out the possibilities. If the Netherese, who were predominantly atheists, had among them the worshipers of Selune and Shar and perhaps some other gods as well, I don't see any reason why the Imaskari wouldn't have the same, considering that their culture - which put the experimentation and use of magic above all else - was much like Netheril's. |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 16:58:43
According to GhotR the Imaskari turned against their gods during the period of Shartra, which was around - 4000 DR. I don't follow that canon, but that would mean that for over 4000 years they had some gods, at least on the fringes of their society. There are numerous possibilities who could have been worshipped. e.g. the planar powers
Certainly Demogorgon, probably just a cult. If the the origins of the Nar religion come from Imaskar, that would mean possible cults of Grazzt, Orcus, Fraz Urblu etc. as well. Another possibility is that the Demogorgon cult spread from the batrachi ruins.
during their alliance with the leshay, possibly some respect was given to the fey powers, or who knows how did the Yuir pantheon spread
elemental lords, particularly Kossuth (Thayan tradition), possible origins of the Raumathari religion
fiendish powers that hate gods, like Asmodeus (less likely) and Anthraxus (the Oinoloth could be the source of the plague immune to the divine magic, possible pact with Shar), the Lady of Pain (j/k).
Far Realms entities, we know they'd made some contact with them cause of Pandorym and the kaorti.
Aoskar, this one must be, in my games I made him into a god-like construct of the Imaskari.
Shar and Mystryl, the dark period of Imaskari history is called Shartra. At least Halaster was involved with them, possibly Madryoch and the Shadow Stone. What if Mystryl was the Hidden One, a tradition that survived in Raumathar and Rashemen. What if Khelliara (today Khalreshaar) was from the Imaskari-fey union.
these are less likely:
The Entropy of Luthcheq (called the Swallower of Gods) or even Hoar (what if he killed Assuran and pretended until ToT).
Durpari gods Zionil (the artificer), Lucha and Curna.
Savras, nothing canon, think he planeshifted by altering his senses. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 14:28:18
I feel strongly that the Imaskari probably did not have any gods. Although I had speculated at one time that Aoskar, the god of portals from Planescape, was an ascended Imaskari.
I figure that Aoskar ascended to godhood, but could not foster enough belief among his own people and so took to the planes to garner more worship.
If "Im" is some kind of prefix in their language perhaps meaning "people" or simply "of", and "i" some kind of genitive suffix, then the Imaskari could have been named after Aoskar = Im-aoskar-i. With the "o" becoming lost due to vowel suppression, or some sort of grammar rule, or perhaps over time due to linguistic drift.
Aoskar could have been the guy who discovered portals, or advanced their knowledge among his people, or who exploited the technology to become leader of his tribe, and so the people took their name from him.
Alternatively, he could have been named after them, taking his godly name as a tribute to the Imaskari, the paragon of their ideals as a race. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 11:41:36
Hmmm. That sounds like a possibility.
Edit:- And it was... The "Lost Empires of Faerun" scroll -- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7896&whichpage=4 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 11:39:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm. There was a scroll floating around a few months ago that dealt, slightly, with the topic of Imaskari worship, gods, and the nature of Imaskari "godlessness" as you called it.
I can't recall which scroll that was though, ATM.
I think it was the scroll on favorite ancient empires. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 08:06:53
Hmmm. There was a scroll floating around a few months ago that dealt, slightly, with the topic of Imaskari worship, gods, and the nature of Imaskari "godlessness" as you called it.
I can't recall which scroll that was though, ATM.
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| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 07:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
What gods would you see these Imaskari (heretics I suppose you could call them?) praying to?
Any gods who can grant them MORE power. And of course at some point in time, they, too, would wield that given power to defy their gods. They're too conceited to be forever tied to some gods ----mayhap more conceited than the Netherese themselves. |
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