| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 20:16:31
Does anyone know any details about the origins of Tempus? Faiths and Pantheons states that he was born of the conflict between Selūne and Shar, and defeated many co-existing war deities - being Targus/Garagos of Netheril the last one he beat - before he was stablished as the supreme war god of Faerūn. I also read some references of Tempus as a Talfirian god here at Candlekeep, but don't know from which references this info came. Anyone? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 22:37:41
I can't say with any authority whether Tempus is small, but he's certainly phallic. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 20:39:08
Which is probably why many early totems (small statues) of deities were phallic in nature.  |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 20:28:32
Finally some truth that the gods are shaped by mortals |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 08:24:34
quote:
Gray Richardson
I think Eric Boyd was a strong proponent, and Ed might perhaps agree with him, of gods being able to encompass multiple, conflicting origins that are (paradoxically) equally "true." There is some notion that gods don't have an "absolute" reality, but rather that, unlike mortal beings, their current reality and even their past history and continuity are dependent upon belief. Thus, their past history, and their memories of their past, may be a product on some level of what their worshippers believe to have happened.
Quantum philosophy? Not only are the events of the future definably uncertain, but also those of the past? Recorded history is exactly as approximate as future speculation, subject to change when present conditions indicate new probabilities?
That outlook has profound implications. |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 18:53:37
Besides, we're that database.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 17:56:53
Steven Schend mentioned that TSR once contemplated making such a database, but even then, it was deemed not worth it: the manpower and time needed to just gather all the data is pretty intensive, and cross-referencing everything would be even more difficult. |
| Razz |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 17:19:21
The 4E Realms got a "reset" practically, for the purpose of its authors and designers not to worry so much about delving into piles of Realmslore to make sure nothing contradicted itself.
Who's to say the authors of a lot of these snippets from all these FR sources were written without hardcore research? It's possible a lot of contradictions in the Forgotten Realms lore is due to the authors/designers lack of researching before they wrote (not all of them, but I fear at least half of them). And I believe it is continuing to this day.
Which leads me to wonder why they haven't created a Realmslore database yet, considering the technology we've had for it for almost 2 decades? Something to double-check facts, to index everything, to have their own Encyclopedia of sorts.
I mean, going back to the part about Markustay's finding of the dwarves speaking about the days the giants, he's left to form some strange theory about their writings. Whereas, all this time, that sentence could've just been written by someone that simply didn't pay attention to the lore.
It would be like some historian writing about the ancient Greeks, and instead of proper research, throws in some random thing like "their empire expanded unto lands as far as Spain, Egypt, and China" and you see the last part and think "Woah, so there might be some Chinese influence in Greece/China?" and then you're on some chase for nothing at all. (Not a historical scholar myself, just throwing that analogy as an example)
So, why then, don't we just find the true FACTS from wherever we can---Realmslore we're aware to be 100% true and that any contradiction to it will be met with real fury and a no-no from WotC---and then index that. Then followed up by theories in a separate format?
Mainly because, finding all this sort of info is...well...as confusing as finding anything in Star Wars lore. Let's not turn the Realms into that! |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 06:00:02
They are also metaphors for beginnings, middles and ends.
The portfolios were well established in the Netheril box-set. Amaunator had "the Sun" as his aspect, and Jergal had "Dusk." And, of course, we knew that Lathander had "the Morning."
While I agree it is an unusual situation, this solar trinity idea, I imagine it stems from the time that the first sun was swallowed by Dendar. The god of Death at that time (whoever it was, probably not Jergal, though) would have "taken" the god of the sun, and thereby claimed the portfolio of Dusk as the first Dusklord.
I reckon that the first Morninglord (probably not Lathander) was born from/created by/or the cause of the reforging of the 2nd sun. He probably had to challenge Death, the Dusklord, in order to claim the spark of godhood that Death had taken from the Lord of the First Sun, and in doing so, that Morninglord locked the three into a cycle that would repeat, again and again.
Some sages might argue that the Morninglord was the first of the three, having been created as a result of Selūne forging the First Sun; but I like to think that the Sun portfolio was the first, and that the Morninglord was technically the last of the three created by the dawning of the New Sun. And I am sure it's the kind of question that Faerūnian sages and religious factions debate among themselves; one of those esoteric points of dogma that is argued endlessly.
There is probably an epic tale to tell about how the three came to be entangled; but that is a myth that is yet untold. It is, however, a myth we can guess at and one I feel confident is there for the telling--whether or not it ever has an official revelation in lore. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 02:45:05
In reference to that last part, I'm simply assume that it has to do with the fact that "morning, noon, and dusk" are largely universally acknowledged sections of one single day. We [and perhaps the inhabitants of the Realms as well--given that the majority usually don't have as intimate relationship with time {based on past commentary from Ed} as people in the real-world] don't concentrate as much on defining proper concepts for "midmorning" or "afternoon" since most people would generally tend to interpret those times of the day in very different ways. However, we all usually agree on when morning, noon, and dusk begin. They are typically recognised as the major transitional periods of a single day. Midmorning and afternoon, at least from my perspective, aren't as definitive, and simply mark the mid-point between either morning and noon -- for midmorning, and noon and dusk for afternoon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 02:37:48
I guess my biggest problem with the tripartite sun deity idea is that to me, it doesn't make sense to have deities for different times of the day -- and especially to have this without a different deity for each phase of the moon. The tripartite idea also leaves out some of the times of day -- we've got morning, noon, and dusk. What about midmorning, or afternoon? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 01:19:41
Ah, well, if you are asking when the rules were originally set? Hmmm... not sure if there is specific lore. But logical points in time where initial rules (or subsequent rules) may have been set for gods suggest themselves: 1) when Ao first created Realmspace; or 2) after the War of Light & Darkness between Selūne and Shar, when peace was negotiated at Cynosure; or 3) after the first war of the Primordials and Gods; or 4) following the Tearfall and the conclusion of the last war between the primordials and gods that saw the splitting off of Abeir; or 5) following the Dawn Cataclysm; or 6) whenever Ao first inscribed the Tablets of Fate.
Note that the gods have Cynosure, a special demi-plane accessible only by gods where the Circle of Powers meet to discuss/negotiate/adjudicate disputes among the gods. (Faiths & Avatars p. 4). Some of the rules defining godhood in the Realms may have been established over eons as a result of these meetings of the Circle of Powers, tantamount to a sort of divine Common Law.
Not to mention that some of the rules of godhood may just be a matter of the particular metaphysics of the D&D multiverse, common to all Crystal Spheres. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 16:19:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Is there any reference about the rules being placed before it - in an event older than the ToT or the Dawn Cataclysm?
Yes, Faiths & Avatars p. 27: "Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became Atar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerūn and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage."
There is also lore regarding the death of Auppenser due to the destruction of all (or nearly all) of his followers in the Vilhon Reach with the deluge of Jhaamdath.
There is also lore supporting the diminution to near extinction of Gorellik, patron god of gnolls, as his followers shifted their allegiance to worship of Yeenoghu, demon prince of gnolls. You find this information in Monster Mythology and in the few mentions in FR lore you find of him. I believe he was last seen in the Realms a few centuries before the ToT, but I can't find the reference just at the moment.
Well, those occurences show that it HAPPENED before the Time of Troubles, not when or why the rules were presented. That's why it looks like an inconsistence to me (considering the text of Mr. Denning's book). But then, Dalor Darden's theories also occurred to me.
Now, about Lathander and Amaunator, I've always seen their relation like Helius and Apollo in the greek pantheon. And the phoenix theory is also very good, in the metamorphosis point of view. After all, phoenixes are the same alignment of Lathander in the 2e, and the temple dedicated to this deity in Shadowdale HAS (have?) the shape of a phoenix. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 22:43:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, saying he died of neglect and that there's a corpse kinda clashes with the whole tripartite sun deity thing (a theory I've never liked).
I don't see it as a conflict. The way I understand it, the tripartite sun deity concept is more of an office that rotates between 3 portfolios held by different office holders, kind of like the Presidency of the European Union. Once the office comes back into rotation, it does not need to be filled by the same office holder each cycle. And in fact, the office holders historically tend to die at the end of their terms; their deaths seem to be the usual way of things.
Jergal ceded the portfolio of Dusk to Myrkul like a hot potato so that Jergal would not be holding it at the time it was time for that portfolio to "set." Myrkul then "died" in Jergal's stead. Amaunator likewise died at the end of his cycle and ended up as a god corpse in the Astral Plane.
Now the big question is whether the current Amaunator is the same Amaunator as the one that died, or simply Lathander transformed into a semblance of him using his name. I personally think the later is true. I think Lathander underwent a metamorphosis, transforming like a caterpillar into a butterfly, so he could have a second bite at the apple. He was able to avoid a cosmic "term limitation" by exploiting a loop hole and changing his name so he could take office again as the new god of Day under a new identity. My suspicion is that the other Amaunator's god corpse is still lying in the Astral. But it would be very telling if someone went to look and found it to be missing.
Jergal found a way to avoid his death by cheating (or at least creative use of the rules). No reason that Lathander should not have taken a queue from Jergal's playbook and found his own loophole.
Alternatively, it could have been Amaunator that found the loophole, planting a seed of himself in Lathander so that he could come back after a time, in a similar manner to the way that Bane planted a seed in his son Iyachtu Xvim, and burst out of Xvim after sitting out a few rounds. Now that would be an interesting twist!
What would be even more interesting is if Jergal and Amaunator colluded together and executed a plan to assure their mutual survival. While I find that idea doubtful, it was intriguing enough to me to mention it as a possibility. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 21:20:06
There is a distinct difference in a God losing power from losing worship...and a God existing because he has NO worshipers.
If a God can exist in Pre-ToT with few worshipers as a Greater God...but vanish if he has NO worshipers; then this dictates that there are TWO different rules from Ao at play...not a variation of one rule.
My idea is that a God in the FR may exist prior to the ToT based on his own power...so long as he/she has worshipers at all. After the ToT there is a STRICTER new rule put in place by Ao. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 20:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Is there any reference about the rules being placed before it - in an event older than the ToT or the Dawn Cataclysm?
Yes, Faiths & Avatars p. 27: "Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became Atar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerūn and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage."
Of course, saying he died of neglect and that there's a corpse kinda clashes with the whole tripartite sun deity thing (a theory I've never liked). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 20:21:39
You also have examples like Tyr's hand. It got bit off by Kezef (a Realmsian echo of the Fenris myth) when the gods chained down the elder evil in the Barrens of Doom & Despair.
Tyr could have healed his hand, gods can take whatever form they wish. But public cognizance and acceptance of the myth required that Tyr's hand stay severed. People believed it so, and so it was. Gods are limited by and conform to the beliefs of their worshippers. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 20:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Is there any reference about the rules being placed before it - in an event older than the ToT or the Dawn Cataclysm?
Yes, Faiths & Avatars p. 27: "Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became Atar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerūn and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage."
There is also lore regarding the death of Auppenser due to the destruction of all (or nearly all) of his followers in the Vilhon Reach with the deluge of Jhaamdath.
There is also lore supporting the diminution to near extinction of Gorellik, patron god of gnolls, as his followers shifted their allegiance to worship of Yeenoghu, demon prince of gnolls. You find this information in Monster Mythology and in the few mentions in FR lore you find of him. I believe he was last seen in the Realms a few centuries before the ToT, but I can't find the reference just at the moment. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 19:47:07
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
[quote]If deities always needed worship, how could they survived the dawn of the world, just after their creation, when there were no worshippers around? This rule should be a "new" one - in cosmological terms - and canon seemed to place this rule at the Time of Troubles... Is there any reference about the rules being placed before it - in an event older than the ToT or the Dawn Cataclysm?
That is a really good question, one which leads some sages to speculate that Selūne and Shar were really some kind of primordial.
But I feel strongly that Selūne and Shar count as gods; they coalesced out of the Astral, we are told. Though they do seem to be a special case. I cannot say definitively how they formed, but I can suggest several possibilities:
1) they formed from incarnum that was leftover from or created as a by-product of Realmspace forming.
2) Ao created them.
3) Ao indirectly created them by setting up the conditions for them to form spontaneously.
4) they don't predate life, but rather were the first gods formed after life emerged in Realmspace. Note: this need not be sentient life, but perhaps the collective energy radiated by all the lower life forms.
5) God's timelines are susceptible to belief, so maybe Selūne and Shar were created by the belief of the first sentient life in Realmspace, that radiated back in time and created them in the past. Sort of a chicken or the egg paradox.
6) Incarnum or the essence of pre-incarnate souls leaked from the positive energy plane and interacted with the newly formed Astral Plane in the early universe. Selūne and Shar coalesced from the resultant reaction.
These are theories. No way to test them, so no way to know if they are true or not. I could probably think of other explanations, but I think the answer lies somewhere along those lines. |
| Quale |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 08:14:46
The Ymir-Chronos-Ptah idea is interesting.
I'm for for an Athar-like (and Netherese/Imaskari) take on the gods, they're powerful beings, whether they are considered ''gods'' or ''demigods'' depends on how much their religion is influential in a local area. The power is in the portfolios, pantheons have a shared interest against outsider powers. The rest is like in Eberron, better to leave as a mystery, overgods are not needed. If the Tablet of Fate were an artifact capable of storing a portfolio, e.g. something like Finnests in Malazan, that'd be more useful than the Denning story. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 04:21:21
Found some interesting info in the last book of the "Avatar Trilogy", Waterdeep:
Ao studied the tablets for several minutes. In a hundred places throughout the Realms, the avatars of the surviving gods fell into a deep trance as Ao summoned their attention. "On these artifacts," the overlord said, sending his voice and image to all of his gods. "I have recorded the forces that balance Law and Chaos."
"And I have returned them to you," Cyric said, daring to meet Ao's gaze. Ao looked at the thief without approval or disapproval. "Yes," he said, stacking the tablets together. "And here is what it amounts to!" The overlord of the gods crushed both tablets in his hands and ground them into dust.
(...)
"The tablets mean nothing," Ao said, addressing all of his gods, no matter where they were. "I kept them to remind you that I created gods to serve the Balance, not to twist it to your own ends. But this point was lost on you. You saw the tablets as a set of rules by which to play juvenile games of prestige and pomp! Then, when the rules became inconvenient, you stole them . . ."
"But that was," Helm began. "I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altarsall so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had never created you."
Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers." From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsurlagoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened wide in outrage and shock.
"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them." In sunny Tesiir, a beautiful woman with silky scarlet hair and fiery red-brown eyes looked as though she were going to retch. "Serve them?" Sune asked.
"I have spoken!" Ao replied.
By Troy Denning |
| Barastir |
Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 20:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
[Arrrggg, either I'm suffering from a strange case of paramnesia or I just read this somewhere else...like at the WotC FR boards in the 'What's the difference between primordials and demons?' thread.
Well, not all of us access the WoTC boards, so thank you very much, Gray... I just wanted to check if your theory of a reorganization was true, or if it was the revision of an inconsistence (like powers dying of neglect BEFORE the rule of worshipping was there).
If deities always needed worship, how could they survived the dawn of the world, just after their creation, when there were no worshippers around? This rule should be a "new" one - in cosmological terms - and canon seemed to place this rule at the Time of Troubles... Is there any reference about the rules being placed before it - in an event older than the ToT or the Dawn Cataclysm? |
| Bakra |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 12:45:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Not necessarily. It is documented that Amaunator died of neglect sometime around 1000 years after the Fall of Netheril. Likewise, Aupenser nearly died from lack of worship after Jhaamdath was drowned, although it is said that Mystra sustained him in some sort of stasis or god coma (if you will) to preserve him from death. Both of these events occurred before the Time of Troubles.
I think that divine power was always related to the level of belief in the deity. However, what might have happened is that by the Time of Troubles the gods had learned to game the system to a degree. Banking belief in artifacts, shrines, temples, number of petitioners (deceased souls) in the god's planar dominion, perhaps even siphoning of belief away from other gods through creative use of aliases, and tricks, that sort of thing. I think what Ao did was simply reform the system, eliminate some "tax dodges" from the divine accounting system and mandate that the gods should be more service oriented to their living worshipers. In that sense, I don't think it was a new rule, per se, just a revision of the existing rules.
Arrrggg, either I'm suffering from a strange case of paramnesia or I just read this somewhere else...like at the WotC FR boards in the 'What's the difference between primordials and demons?' thread. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 07:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Not necessarily. It is documented that Amaunator died of neglect sometime around 1000 years after the Fall of Netheril. Likewise, Aupenser nearly died from lack of worship after Jhaamdath was drowned, although it is said that Mystra sustained him in some sort of stasis or god coma (if you will) to preserve him from death. Both of these events occurred before the Time of Troubles.
I think that divine power was always related to the level of belief in the deity. However, what might have happened is that by the Time of Troubles the gods had learned to game the system to a degree. Banking belief in artifacts, shrines, temples, number of petitioners (deceased souls) in the god's planar dominion, perhaps even siphoning of belief away from other gods through creative use of aliases, and tricks, that sort of thing. I think what Ao did was simply reform the system, eliminate some "tax dodges" from the divine accounting system and mandate that the gods should be more service oriented to their living worshipers. In that sense, I don't think it was a new rule, per se, just a revision of the existing rules.
EDIT: I, haha, forgot to paste in my actual reply at the time.
When Ao made his decree, I've always struggled a bit with it - case in point, Mystra - why would the deity of magic be a Greater God, if her power depends on her number of worshippers; for all her qualities, by sheer number, Mystra is not likely to have many worshippers. Even in the Realms, the "target demographic" of magic-users is not likely to be enormous, and certainly not enough to place her on the same level as, say Chauntea, on whose portfolio the bigger part of the Realms' population still depends.
When the Planescape line came out, with the "Belief is Power" idea, I went over to the notion that a deity's power is not necessarily based on the number of worshippers (though it probably helps) but on how powerful everyone thinks that deity should be, taking into account their portfolio. In the case of Mystra - not many people might be magic-users, but almost all the people would know or feel that magic is a very powerful force - that belief would propel Mystra higher up the charts than her number of worshippers would indicate. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 04:41:07
Not necessarily. It is documented that Amaunator died of neglect sometime around 1000 years after the Fall of Netheril. Likewise, Aupenser nearly died from lack of worship after Jhaamdath was drowned, although it is said that Mystra sustained him in some sort of stasis or god coma (if you will) to preserve him from death. Both of these events occurred before the Time of Troubles.
I think that divine power was always related to the level of belief in the deity. However, what might have happened is that by the Time of Troubles the gods had learned to game the system to a degree. Banking belief in artifacts, shrines, temples, number of petitioners (deceased souls) in the god's planar dominion, perhaps even siphoning of belief away from other gods through creative use of aliases, and tricks, that sort of thing. I think what Ao did was simply reform the system, eliminate some "tax dodges" from the divine accounting system and mandate that the gods should be more service oriented to their living worshipers. In that sense, I don't think it was a new rule, per se, just a revision of the existing rules. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 17:42:51
The need of a God for faith of their worshipers and in numbers was to me a strange thing...but Ao imposed it after the Time of Troubles.
Before that, there were no such rules the Gods needed to worry about. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 17:15:37
Actually, Markustay, my question was made because, when you set a diferentiation between primordials (physical matter) and deities (live matter), I thought you were stating that there was an intrinsec association between "life" and worshipping.
But the idea of gods depending on their worshippers for their living and thriving was originally stablished on the transition between 1st and 2nd edition, marked by the Time of Troubles - otherwise, how could some gods have created the world and mortals? However, later 2nd edition products seemed to work based on this principle, even when revelating divine stories transcurred thousands of years before 1357 DR. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 22:01:50
GODS:
I use them all - before I erased much of it from another post, I had quite a bit of my proto-proto-pantheon laid out, and the concepts they represented. Kronos {time), Ptah (Space), Vishnu (Life), Thanatos (death), Ymir (matter), etc...
They in-turn created the first of the primordials, known as the 'high primordials' - those would be the Overgods. Then, after the Overgods had fashioned Crystal Spheres for their worlds, the Elder Gods created another group of primordials, known as the Titans, or 'Jotuns'. these 'low primordials' are the ones some mortals are familiar with. These primordials created the deities, in some cases on-purpose, and in others by accident.
All of these beings, and the few above them, along with a few that came from an alternate line (Dragons come from that branch), would all be considered 'gods'. The Krynnish 'High God', Io of Greyspace, Eternity of Marvelspace, Eru of MiddleEarth, Celestial Emeperor of Jadespace, etc, etc are all examples of 'High Primordials', or 'Spheric Gaurdians', more commonly referred to by mortals as Over-gods. Every sphere started out with one, but not all have them, and not every OverGod has a sphere; Some, like the Lady of Pain, rule other regions of the multiverse.
Pretty much all homebrew, in my attempt to unite all the religions into a 'Unified creation theory' that also takes into account current RW religions and science.
And yeah, I did tie Set to snakes and the Sarrukh, and their later creations the Yuan-ti and Nagas - after all, Yuan-ti and Nagas are present amongst those cultures that have had more run-ins with Rakshasa. Had a whole thing going on down in primordial Zakhara wherein the Djinn were originally summoned by Rakshasa as their minions, who eventually broke-free and forced the Rakshasa to flee into the Yehimals. Covered a lot of territory in the Utter East thread - that was where all the various histories needed to be blended together. Had to fudge quite a bit in the Larang valleys (Ronin Challenge) because the Vedic Pantheon should be present there, and yet we have some myths about the Kara-Turran pantheon in that same region. The east is very strange, religion-wise - no religion is exclusive to any other, unlike our real world religion of the west (but not really so in FR - the same technically holds true - everyone believes in ALL the gods).
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I believe when Markustay says "Faeru-tur" he is referring to the big land mass that encompasses Faerūn and Kara-TUR. Something like Earth's "Eurasia"...
Precisely. 
Its a lot easier to type then "the Faerūn/Kara-Tur/Zakhara continent.
Also, Brian's pre-Sundering name for the landmass wouldn't be applicable post-Sundering (plus it is also a mouthful to type). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Note that the 4e FRCG states explicitly that "Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants." Tempus was no doubt born at that time, and in fact was probably a manifestation and personification of the very idea of war engendered by this conflict, created as a byproduct of sentient beings becoming aware of "War" as a concept.
Especially note those words "summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight..." I take that as strong support for the idea that demons and devils and interloper gods immigrated to Realmspace at the behest of Realmspace deities in order to fight in these wars.
Well, the maybe Tempus and some of the other Realmsian gods we don't know from Earth could also be interlopers... Being called from other worlds, and that's why we don't recognize them as interlopers.
And according with Markustay theory, the High God of Krynn would also be one of those "greater primordials", like Lord Ao, and at least some of the gods would be interlopers, right? Do you guys associate Paladine and Takhisis as aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat?
Another question for Markustay, getting back to the Realms and this a tricky one: weren't the deities forces linked to their worshipper's veneration only after the Time of Troubles? This was one o the greatest statements of Lord Ao at the end of the Avatar Crisis, IIRC. |
| Quale |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 20:37:23
I'd use the slap-head smiley now.
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| Barastir |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 14:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
What does ''Faeru-turran'' mean, something with fey and Turami? Reminds me also about the Thurian age from Howard.
I believe when Markustay says "Faeru-tur" he is referring to the big land mass that encompasses Faerūn and Kara-TUR. Something like Earth's "Eurasia"... |
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