| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Milith holder of HB8 |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 18:51:34
So, I'm an aspiring novelist and I plan to involve Amaunator in my writings, since his return to the Realms has sparked some interest about him. I think I have a good deal of information on him already, mostly from Netheril: Empire of Magic and by extension (sort of), Faiths and Pantheons where it delves into Lathander.
However, is there any other sort of information I should know about him? I have an idea of how I want to bridge the gap of going from Amaunator LN to Lathander NG to Amaunator LG, but I just want to make sure it doesn't mess up any already established information.
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ether between shelves. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 05:28:29
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
<chop>
Anyway, entertaining the notion that Lathander acquired the Day portfolio sometime around the Year of Risen Elfkin, that would have cleared the way for the Dusk portfolio to come back. Now if Cyric got a hold of the Crown of Horns, or somehow coaxed the Dusk portfolio to inhere in him (he is the Dark Sun, after all, a monicker uniquely suited to a god of Dusk) then that might go a long way towards explaining how he was able to kill Mystra. Perhaps the Dusk portfolio helped him to secretly engineer the death of many gods, including the War of Gold and Gloom, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc. The Spell Plague seems very Dusky to me.
Alternatively, we don't have to assume that Cyric actually fully acquired the Dusk portfolio, but maybe the Dusk portfolio was locked in the Crown of Horns, and mere possession of the artifact would allow Cyric to access the Dusk portfolio, if only on a temporary basis.
Not sure if this reflects any of what actually happened, but it seems plausible to me--and it's certainly a fun scenario to think about. 
 Gray, this is very cool stuff... I'll have to take some time to investigate the entire body of lore regarding these three more carefully, but for my Realms and my reimagined Spellplague, I'm looking at having the Spellplague break this cycle wide open, causing all three aspects to coexist, with only their relative power levels changing in cycle (one greater, one lesser, one demi-). That's all I've got right now; it's late where I am, and I work at 6AM. 
Edit: Nice job on the NDA Jergal lore, BTW. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 05:39:35
Ah, gotcha.
That'd actually make for quite an intriguing campaign hook... with Myrkul ensuring that the Crown of Horns evades Cyric's possession by "falling" into the hands of individuals that would make claiming it, somewhat difficult for the Prince of Lies.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 05:00:00
I was thinking more along the lines of not letting the Crown come into Cyric's possession. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 00:54:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Anything Myrkul does is not a divine development, though, since he's no longer divine. And we know he's not interested in being a deity any more.
That is, unless he starts working toward the path of the divine again. And Ed's made it quite clear that that is always a possibility for fallen deities. So, for whatever reason, the divine development will always remain.
quote:
If anything, I think Myrkul would do his best to simply stay away from Cyric.
Aye, which is a part of what I've been saying. Myrkul understand how deities *see* other deities, and he could even use part of that knowledge to keep well out of Cyric's way for a time. But it would amount to very little. Cyric is still a god, after all, and Myrkul only has limited opportunities and "room" to hide in the Crown. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 18:28:36
Anything Myrkul does is not a divine development, though, since he's no longer divine. And we know he's not interested in being a deity any more.
If anything, I think Myrkul would do his best to simply stay away from Cyric. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 17:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage.
Myrkul wouldn't need to hide from Ao, though -- Myrkul is no longer a deity, so Ao wouldn't care about him.
Oh, I don't think he'd care. But, at the same time, I doubt Ao's the kind of Overgod to simply ignore such a situation forever. He should well remember what his inattentiveness brought him the last time he ignored divine developments on Toril. And while Myrkul doesn't really need to worry about hiding from Ao now, we all know and appreciate what Ed's said in the past about dead gods never truly being considered "dead." There's always the possibility that Myrkul could once again attain deityhood.
quote:
And I simply don't think a non-deity is going to have enough power to conceal himself in the presence of a deity -- especially a deity of deception and illusion.
I'm not saying that Myrkul would succeed. Just that he's enough deity-experience to give Cyric a difficult time trying to "find" him. At least for a while. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 17:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage.
Myrkul wouldn't need to hide from Ao, though -- Myrkul is no longer a deity, so Ao wouldn't care about him.
And I simply don't think a non-deity is going to have enough power to conceal himself in the presence of a deity -- especially a deity of deception and illusion. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:04:35
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 07:25:05
Faiths & Pantheons actually gives Cyric's wisdom as 24, it doesn't list Myrkul's. However, Faith's & Avatars give Myrkul's avatar a wisdom of 23. However, that resource states also that Cyric's avatar has wis 16. So it's hard to tell who is wiser. Perhaps Myrkul, being no longer a god, has a wisdom penalty. Perhaps Cyric has "wised-up" during the period between publication of the two sources. Perhaps Cyric, currently a god, gets divinity bonuses to wisdom rolls and saves. I would still give Cyric the advantage. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 04:56:35
Cyric had a wisdom of 20 did he not? what was Myrkuls? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 04:40:49
Who knows! That might be what happened! Although, given Cyric's ego, in a battle of wills, I'd think he'd have a little edge. But a fun twist nonetheless! |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 02:38:51
if Cyric acquired the crown of horns, he'd have to contend with Dark Lord Myrkul."Lord Myrkul would put cyric in the crown and take over his body. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 01:43:49
Thinking about this today, I found myself intrigued with the idea that Lathander might have started to metamorphose into Amaunator earlier than we had thought. In the same manner that economists can't tell when a recession has ended until many quarters after it actually ends, I wonder if Lathander's transformation might have occurred before the Spell Plague, before Mystra's death.
The "Risen Sun Heresy" and the "Three-Faced Sun Heresy" were established in Power of Faerūn p.47. There were adherents of Lathander who believed that Lathander already had become Amaunator or that his transformation was imminent. What if, say, the events surrounding the re-founding of Myth Drannor and Cormanthor marked Lathander's ascendancy into the Day portfolio. I know that the Grand History of Faerūn indicates "Lathander" was still extant in Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR) but what if he was only "Lathander" in name only, or word just had not gotten out yet about his change? Heck, he might not have had to even change anything yet, maybe it was his porfolio that transformed, he suddenly woke up one morning with the Day portfolio instead of the Dawn portfolio and then the portfolio effected a change upon him over the next few decades.
Anyway, entertaining the notion that Lathander acquired the Day portfolio sometime around the Year of Risen Elfkin, that would have cleared the way for the Dusk portfolio to come back. Now if Cyric got a hold of the Crown of Horns, or somehow coaxed the Dusk portfolio to inhere in him (he is the Dark Sun, after all, a monicker uniquely suited to a god of Dusk) then that might go a long way towards explaining how he was able to kill Mystra. Perhaps the Dusk portfolio helped him to secretly engineer the death of many gods, including the War of Gold and Gloom, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc. The Spell Plague seems very Dusky to me.
Alternatively, we don't have to assume that Cyric actually fully acquired the Dusk portfolio, but maybe the Dusk portfolio was locked in the Crown of Horns, and mere possession of the artifact would allow Cyric to access the Dusk portfolio, if only on a temporary basis.
Not sure if this reflects any of what actually happened, but it seems plausible to me--and it's certainly a fun scenario to think about. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 14:23:12
Day follows the dawn, and dusk follows the day. Netheril was Amaunator's Day. Dusk came when Netheril fell, and Myrkul was ascendant then for a good long while. Then the dawn came sometime around the start of Dale Reckoning--give or take a century or two, sometime between -238 DR and 183 DR, with the founding of Dale Reckoning to perhaps be even a likely birth of Lathander. Then Myrkul died and Lathander became supreme for a time, and now the dawn has turned into day with Amaunator emerging. Dusk will rear it's head shortly, have no fear.
Nothing was skipped. Each portfolio had it's time in the cycle in order. I am sure this cycle also extends backward in time going back to the Creation of the Sun by Selūne, and I am sure it has turned many times. There was certainly someone to hold the dawn portfolio back before Amaunator rose to ascendancy with Netheril. And a dusk before that, and a day before that, and a previous dawn and so on. |
| Strife026 |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 08:54:03
Gray, the problem I see with your theory is that the newest campaign guide says that Amaunator transformed into Lathander on purpose, and did not die off. Of course, Im not sure if this falls in line with Ed's original idea but its canon now.
But it kind of makes sense that the dawn, highsun, and dusk portfolios might have belonged to one god originally. Sort of like a three faced god, similar to how Selune is seen in different forms with different phases of the moon or Angharradh in the Elven pantheon being three distinct Goddesses, and one side or persona takes charge depending on whatever phase is dominant at the time.
Maybe dusk originally belonged to Amaunator/Lathander but was stolen from them by Shar. She gives the portfolio to Jergal in return for an alliance of some sort, like to create Kezef the Chaos Hound who kills worshipers of the Gods which benefits Shar's final goals. The theft causes Lathander to appear early. The problem I have is that the dusk time of ascendancy seems to be skipped somehow. Why was the natural order skipped? Because of the theft Amaunator was able to disregard the natural order?
One thing that might have been the reason for Jergal giving Myrkul the Dusk portfolio is because of the worthlessness the portfolio had since Dawn took Dusks place as ascendant. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 05:38:25
Why thank you lovely lady The Hooded One! I endeavor ever to be an attentive student of Realms lore, although at the moment I must confess I find myself somewhat giddy and distracted by teacher...  |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 20:21:55
grey, that is scary, good but scary. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 20:01:25
Gray, you're very close to some of Ed's root (and NDA) lore on Jergal.
Bwoohahahaha, and so forth.
love,
THO |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 17:38:58
So if Jergal is really that old he must have dodged the bullet many times? Or, we know of Jergal's attraction to Shar, maybe Dusk was sort of a ''gift'' she uses to manipulate and kill gods. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 16:16:24
Gray... ... impressive as always! 
I'm dropping this [with a few slight tweaks to reflect my own take on it] into my Realmslore. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 16:14:43
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 09:26:57
I think the timeline works. Here's how: Eric Boyd had said the trifold sun portfolio of dawn, day and dusk rotates in cycles, where one is always ascendant, another waning, and the 3rd has set, hidden "below the horizon" so to speak. For a brief while, when a portfolio sets, the remaining god is at his zenith, before the next god arises and the previously ascending god begins to wane.
I think Eric described it as looking at a rotating 4 sided die edge on, where you can see at most two faces, but never 3, with one face getting bigger as it rotates towards you and the other shrinking as it rotates away, then for a moment all you can see is one face as the receding face moves behind and then the hidden face rotates into view.
It is important to note that at the end of each cycle the bearer of the portfolio always "sets"--either dies or transforms into the new version. This is unavoidable.
Okay, so I think Jergal saw the writing on the wall; he saw that Amaunator was waning and Jergal was about to peak, and although it is hinted that Jergal was bored or suffering from ennui, my theory is rather that he was simply afraid; Jergal didn't want to exit gracefully when his dusk portfolio's time came around.
So Jergal "opted out"; he played hot potato or "tag, your it!" with the Dusk portfolio by gifting it to Myrkul. Like in "The Ring" where you can avoid your death by getting someone else to watch the video tape.
Grand History of the Realms indicates that Jergal surrendered his portfolio circa the Year of Boiling Moats in -359 DR, about 20 years before the Fall of Netheril. By doing so, he ensured that Myrkul would have the portfolio and ascend to the zenith of Dusk in the place of Jergal. Arguably, the Fall of Netheril WAS the height of Dusk and the setting of Amaunator's Day.
Not sure how long Dusk was at its zenith, but certainly the subsequent Fall of Jhaamdath was part of that period. Myrkul got to see the sun set on 2 fantastically powerful civilizations, and the collapse of civilization that led to the Chondathan diaspora, not to mention anarchic successor states that needed the Procession of Justice led by Tyr to restore order to a devastated land. That is some major dusk if you ask me! I think it safe to say that Dusk was in full bloom from around -339 DR at the Fall of Netheril, until around -238 DR when Tyr's Procession of Justice starts to clean things up and pacify Southern Faerūn.
But when did Lathander come along? We know Lathander was revered in Athalantar which was founded in 183 DR. He might have been around for awhile prior to that, but we know he couldn't have appeared much later. We don't know when Amaunator died, but seems like the Fall of Netheril was his likely demise, mythologically speaking. In Faiths & Avatars, I believe, it says something to the effect that Amaunator lingered for almost exactly 1000 years after the fall, before he died from lack of worship, which doesn't quite make sense, since Lathander was on the scene. But we could surmise that it was 1000 years before he was forgotten and his body turned up in the Astral Plane, but he really died for all intents and purposes in the Year of Sundered Webs.
Or alternatively we could postulate some sort of time-zone metaphor, where even though the sun is set in New York, it is still afternoon in California, such that Lathander had "risen" in the Heartlands, but his worship had not traveled North yet to the geographic sphere where Netheril had been to supplant the dwindling faith in Amaunator until some centuries later.
But the way it all shakes out, it seems pretty clear that Jergal dodged a bullet. All he had to do was lay low for awhile. Now that Lathander has left the building and Amaunator is back, Jergal is free to reclaim the dusk portfolio (which I think may still lie within the Crown of Horns with the remaining essence of Myrkul.) Or maybe Jergal really is done with all that. But that leaves Myrkul free to make a comeback, or some new guy, perhaps Cyric, or Kelemvor to try and take up the Dusk mantle.
But if you look at it in this way, the timeline still tracks very well. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 01:12:52
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The cycle should have gone from highsun to dusk with the fall of Netheril, but Lathander somehow engineered his return to preeminence early.
Did he just?
-- George Krashos
Or not, given my earlier post... if Jergal simply refused to ascend in his role as Lord of Dusk, Lathander would be the only candidate left to fill the post being vacated by Amaunator. Of course, if Jergal's ennui was the result of the Morninglord's manipulations... that's a whole different scenario, and one that someone with more knowledge of the specific powers of the divine than I possess should handle. Generally, I'm satisfied with the way my theory works, but as I mentioned, I don't currently have all of the published lore at my fingertips, so if there are any discrepancies between my scenario and established pre-Spellplague lore, I'd like to know.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 07:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The cycle should have gone from highsun to dusk with the fall of Netheril, but Lathander somehow engineered his return to preeminence early.
Did he just?
-- George Krashos
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 13:30:04
quote:
Originally posted by JakkFall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
Thoughts on this? Ashe? Sage? Others?
Amaunator's Fall and Lathander's rise is probably seeded by the Fall of Netheril but didn't fully occur until years after (exact year unknown) but Amaunator was still around during the time of Anauria. I think they switched around the time of the Dawn Cataclysm. So yeah, as you said, it was a gradual occurence. Same thing for Amaunator's re-ascension, which was also gradual (as evidenced by the later 3E FR products) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 07:10:19
It's not the way I would've liked to have taken it, but it's intriguing nonetheless.
Good stuff! |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 06:41:21
As a couple of guys drinking a fine beer once said, "Brilliant!" |
| Jakk |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 04:56:43
The Dusk portfolio was Myrkul's, yes, but the timeline doesn't add up.
Fall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
Thoughts on this? Ashe? Sage? Others? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 04:12:05
At the time of his death, "Dusk" was among the many aspects of Myrkul's portfolio. |
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