| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 16:53:39
So, Cloak and Dagger mentions that Khelben ran across certain of Alaundo's prophecies that led him to believe that he needed to be ready to combat (IRRC, I am AFB) 'the darkness below and the 3 Prefects'.
Has any source ever elucidated what these cryptic evils might be?
If no other work of Realmslore clarifies the nature of this, do any scribes have any good ideas? To me, they sound like Elder Evils: I don't know why, but the wording sounds vaguely 'Lovecraftian' to me. Thanks in advance. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 02 Dec 2020 : 05:43:51
Great Reader Brimstone,
Agreed! Especially when you get someone like Mr. Schend working on something as cool as that. :)
Best regards,
|
| Brimstone |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 07:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Curious that this thread should resurrect itself spontaneously just as I was looking at detailing info on Those Formerly Referred to as Prefects (whose name rankled George Krashos unto fits).
Yes, I'm blowing the dust off my keyboards and hoping to get some new stuff out into the world whether for free on my website or for sale via DM Guild.... More soon, gentles and less-than-so's...
Steven
I just love Synchronicities... |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 07:22:44
Mr. Schend,
quote:
I've reread the thread/topic and I'm having trouble sussing out the actual question that Knight asked, honestly. Could be painkillers fogging my brain or I'm just tired. Suffice it to say I'll reveal what I can when I can...
Fair enough. I only meant that as a little good fun there. It had just been quite some time, haha.
Best regards,
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 01:24:52
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Mr. Schend,
I am sort of curious if answering the question of Senior Scribe Knight of the Gate from 2009 is still on the plate, assuming it hadn't been, as a follow-up to the Sage's response: quote:
17 Oct 2009 : 10:32:47 Of course. You can post the question now, if you wish. I'm sure Steven will address it upon his return.
? lol
I had to ask in light of the age of the scroll. ;)
I've reread the thread/topic and I'm having trouble sussing out the actual question that Knight asked, honestly. Could be painkillers fogging my brain or I'm just tired. Suffice it to say I'll reveal what I can when I can...
Steven
who knows NDAs last as long as lawyers breathe...and notice things....so best to assume they're still in force until noted clearly otherwise.... |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 22:00:19
Mr. Schend,
I am sort of curious if answering the question of Senior Scribe Knight of the Gate from 2009 is still on the plate, assuming it hadn't been, as a follow-up to the Sage's response: quote:
17 Oct 2009 : 10:32:47 Of course. You can post the question now, if you wish. I'm sure Steven will address it upon his return.
? lol
I had to ask in light of the age of the scroll. ;)
Best regards,
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 21:30:55
PS: To George and others
When I named them Prefects, I'd not been that familiar with the term's use within private schools, but in the more broad sense as a leader: "a chief officer, magistrate, or regional governor in certain countries."
Chapter 18 of BLACKSTAFF has the best and most coherent look at the Prefects of the Three In Darkness.
Are there hints of more to come? Sure, but even George doesn't know everything I'm planning with them, and Palron Kaeth in particular.
Can't recall--have I ever let slip exactly (or even hinted) at who the Three in Darkness are that they serve? Might be Leira and two other Powers...or it could be something else entirely that just falls in step with Leira's faith to draw in Luuthis Fharren, the so-called Lord High Obfuscator.
There. That enough hints and mysteries for a week of misdirection before our Friday conclave on magical items?
Steven |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 21:23:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Curious that this thread should resurrect itself spontaneously just as I was looking at detailing info on Those Formerly Referred to as Prefects (whose name rankled George Krashos unto fits).
Yes, I'm blowing the dust off my keyboards and hoping to get some new stuff out into the world whether for free on my website or for sale via DM Guild.... More soon, gentles and less-than-so's...
Steven
It wasn't the best name you've come up with  but Ed let us know in his Herald novel that "the Prefects" was an archaic name for the Keeper of Tomes and Great Readers of Candlekeep. So your "Dark Prefects" smack of an individual there who went rogue and set up his own group. So Steven, when was Palron Kieth at Candlekeep?
-- George Krashos
Gee, George, Palron Kaeth may never have been at Candlekeep...but at least some of those with whom he associated were there or touched the minds and souls of those who had..... :D
Steven
Who's playing cards close to vest as it's more fun that way... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 29 Nov 2020 : 09:34:43
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Curious that this thread should resurrect itself spontaneously just as I was looking at detailing info on Those Formerly Referred to as Prefects (whose name rankled George Krashos unto fits).
Yes, I'm blowing the dust off my keyboards and hoping to get some new stuff out into the world whether for free on my website or for sale via DM Guild.... More soon, gentles and less-than-so's...
Steven
It wasn't the best name you've come up with but Ed let us know in his Herald novel that "the Prefects" was an archaic name for the Keeper of Tomes and Great Readers of Candlekeep. So your "Dark Prefects" smack of an individual there who went rogue and set up his own group. So Steven, when was Palron Kaeth at Candlekeep?
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 20:29:01
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Curious that this thread should resurrect itself spontaneously just as I was looking at detailing info on Those Formerly Referred to as Prefects (whose name rankled George Krashos unto fits).
Yes, I'm blowing the dust off my keyboards and hoping to get some new stuff out into the world whether for free on my website or for sale via DM Guild.... More soon, gentles and less-than-so's...
Steven
Ooh, you know I'm interested!  |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 20:01:45
Curious that this thread should resurrect itself spontaneously just as I was looking at detailing info on Those Formerly Referred to as Prefects (whose name rankled George Krashos unto fits).
Yes, I'm blowing the dust off my keyboards and hoping to get some new stuff out into the world whether for free on my website or for sale via DM Guild.... More soon, gentles and less-than-so's...
Steven |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 23:33:11
Master Rupert,
A hearty thank you for pointing that out! I have no idea how I missed that. Especially since I've referred to that very tome on several occasions. I think I was experiencing tunnel vision so much on the novel, that I just didn't see the forest through the trees!
Do you know of any other identified clergy of Leira, such as the Lord High Obfuscator?
Thanks again.
Best regards,
EDIT: Adding question
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 23:24:04
Page 94 of Faiths & Avatars:
quote:
Leiran clergy members (of all kinds) are called whatever they choose to be called, and official titles vary from day to day and from person to person. Pompous titles are often followed by misleading ones, and this tenday's high pontiff is next tenday's acolyte. This wild, constantly changing array of grandiose, silly, frivolous, and obviously spurious titles ranges from Supreme High Lord of the Heights and Depths to Most Holy Guttersweeper. Within the faith, specialty priests are known as mistcallers to distinguish their capabilities from those of clerics and illusionists, but they sport the same diverse and ever-changing titles as others of their kind when asked publicly what their duties and positions are.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 23:08:29
Master Rupert,
Haec mando volumine et resurgere a Domino iussus scientiarum studiosi virtutis!
I'm doing some additional research on Leira for my current and next campaign. As you know, specialty clergy of Leira are called, Mistcallers and Mistwalkers. However, in the novel Blackstaff, there is a character referred to as Lord High Obfuscator. Are you familiar with any sort of ranking system in that faith? As far as I can tell, such a ranking system would be anathema to that faith.
Best regards,
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 10:32:47
Of course. You can post the question now, if you wish. I'm sure Steven will address it upon his return.  |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 08:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You can certainly try. Just remember, Steven's occupied for most of this month, and maybe longer, so any reply may still be weeks in the coming.
Thanks, Sage- I'd heard about Steven's exile from the various Internets, which is why I didn't sprint off to do just that; I'll likely post it in the next few days and wait patiently. Not that I honestly think he'll be free to speak on the subject even when he returns, but it can't hurt to ask, eh? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 08:16:15
You can certainly try. Just remember, Steven's occupied for most of this month, and maybe longer, so any reply may still be weeks in the coming.
|
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 17 Oct 2009 : 08:09:48
Alright, some insomnia and some persistence have yielded this: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2258
I'm pondering posting to Mr.Schend's scroll in hopes of asking what he 'might have done' with these plot threads. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 15:05:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can dig gods not being able to interfere... But ignoring that restriction, we're still talking about mortals doing something gods can't do. That's kinda like the idea of me climbing on a bicycle and out-pedaling Lance Armstrong: theoretically possible (if Lance has some sort of handicap and a really bad day), but about as likely as a community of Malarite vegans. There's a hell of a difference between "can but won't" and "can't".
Well if we use sports as a metaphor, huge upsets do happen and those are the best stories to tell (when the underdog team wins the championship by defeating the clear-cut favorite). I know that this is comparing apples to oranges, but that's what would make it such an epic accomplishment that would be told for centuries after. Stories of people "surpassing" their limitations - especially since its not something that is expected and is a once in a era thing. How much time do the gods wpend trying to vanquish these entities anyways? |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 14:59:31
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Well-said on all sides, gents. I think what really rankles about the NDA issue is its complete lack of common sense; as Allisttair said,it's not as though ANY of that stuff is now going to be used, and yet here we sit (having spent untold sums of money on the setting) with myriad unanswered questions and access to the people most qualified to answer them. But despite how willing the authors/designers/etc. are to share these things with us, they are hogtied by a legal fiction- fiction because we know that these are areas of FR which will never see the light of day. In reality (and others have said this before) if WotC was savvy about this, they'd get a handful of the ppl who've signed these NDAs together and publish a 'Secrets of the Realms' book, consisting of 200 pages of previously NDA'd stuff written by the original authors of same. As none of it is 'new' material, I have to think that they could produce this pretty cheaply and quickly, and how could it NOT sell? But then again, I don't really have a working knowledge of the publishing industry in this regard, so I'm likely oversimplifying. But a boy can dream, can't he?
How about getting all the realms fans to do a fund-raiser to pay for the sorting of the NDAs. Someone with a lot of influence would have to organize this of course, but before they would have to maybe have someone at Wizards calculate the approximate man-hours of sorting needed and have the cost calculated by an accountant and then it can be done in phases. I doubt this would happen, but its an idea.
|
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 08:29:18
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
In reality (and others have said this before) if WotC was savvy about this, they'd get a handful of the ppl who've signed these NDAs together and publish a 'Secrets of the Realms' book, consisting of 200 pages of previously NDA'd stuff written by the original authors of same. As none of it is 'new' material, I have to think that they could produce this pretty cheaply and quickly, and how could it NOT sell?
Sadly, I think that the majoity of WotC's new 'target group' wouldn't be interested in purchasing such a tome. While people like us would love it, it would not contain any new combat features (what are the feats / attacks of the 4th Edition called?), epic destinies, and whatnot. But indeed, one should have his dreams... |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 19:34:17
Well-said on all sides, gents. I think what really rankles about the NDA issue is its complete lack of common sense; as Allisttair said,it's not as though ANY of that stuff is now going to be used, and yet here we sit (having spent untold sums of money on the setting) with myriad unanswered questions and access to the people most qualified to answer them. But despite how willing the authors/designers/etc. are to share these things with us, they are hogtied by a legal fiction- fiction because we know that these are areas of FR which will never see the light of day. In reality (and others have said this before) if WotC was savvy about this, they'd get a handful of the ppl who've signed these NDAs together and publish a 'Secrets of the Realms' book, consisting of 200 pages of previously NDA'd stuff written by the original authors of same. As none of it is 'new' material, I have to think that they could produce this pretty cheaply and quickly, and how could it NOT sell? But then again, I don't really have a working knowledge of the publishing industry in this regard, so I'm likely oversimplifying. But a boy can dream, can't he? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 15:57:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
As far as the NDAs go, it would be nice if they could at least make it a slow process to go through them and one at a time put the ones that can be freed up aside in a "different pile" from the ones that are to remain NDA.
There's a problem with that perspective, however. And that is, designers/writers can't really know what they can and will be able to use in the future in terms of NDA material. What might be feasible for inclusion at one point, might later be withdrawn before publication of a particular source.
Indeed. And this still involves getting multiple people to go thru all the NDAs, when it costs nothing to simply let them be.
I'd assume that each NDA came about as a need for it was noted, and that none of them have expiration dates attached... There's no need, for example, to NDA something that no one's touching, but as soon as author/designer A says "hey, let's do something over here!", then NDAs get whipped out for anyone else who might even peripherally affect it. And by not having expiration dates, they don't have to go back and re-NDA something if plans change or schedules get smoked.
And also, as an effect of how they're implemented, I'd imagine that there's no master list of NDAs, either. There's prolly still multiple filing cabinets full of NDAs at WotC headquarters, and I wouldn't expect there to be an easy organization system for them.
This isn't a knock at WotC; how would one properly organize NDAs in a shared setting? By region/subregion/critter/entity/event/object? By author? By date signed?
The latter two would be easiest to sort thru, but you'd have to wade thru everything to find who signed NDAs about something.
If it's the first option... Say that an NDA covers a mysterious murder in a Waterdhavian alley. Everyone touching Waterdeep at that time would be under an NDA on it. If the victim was a particular NPC, people working even peripherally with that NPC (friends of the NPC, relatives of the NPC, other members of the same group, etc) would be under an NDA. If it was the work of a specific power group or NPC, again with the NDAs... One minor event, and yet potentially dozens of NDAs on a very wide selection of stuff. How would you properly classify it, if the victim was an expatriate Cormyrian agent of the Lords of Waterdeep and a Harper, the murderer was an nobleman-turned-assassin with Zhent connections working for the Knights of the Shield, and it was somehow related to a particular temple?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that they should be actively going thru NDAs and seeing what can be discarded and what needs to ride. But I'm also looking at it from the business side, and seeing why they're not doing it. I personally think the fan goodwill for releasing some of this info would be worth it, in the long run, but I'm not one of those making decisions at WotC. Suffice it to say much would be different about D&D right now -- particularly for the Realms -- if I called the shots at WotC. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 14:25:06
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
As far as the NDAs go, it would be nice if they could at least make it a slow process to go through them and one at a time put the ones that can be freed up aside in a "different pile" from the ones that are to remain NDA.
There's a problem with that perspective, however. And that is, designers/writers can't really know what they can and will be able to use in the future in terms of NDA material. What might be feasible for inclusion at one point, might later be withdrawn before publication of a particular source.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 12:25:50
I can dig gods not being able to interfere... But ignoring that restriction, we're still talking about mortals doing something gods can't do. That's kinda like the idea of me climbing on a bicycle and out-pedaling Lance Armstrong: theoretically possible (if Lance has some sort of handicap and a really bad day), but about as likely as a community of Malarite vegans. There's a hell of a difference between "can but won't" and "can't". |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 12:04:51
As far as the NDAs go, it would be nice if they could at least make it a slow process to go through them and one at a time put the ones that can be freed up aside in a "different pile" from the ones that are to remain NDA.
And about mortals doing what the divine can't, Knight of the Gate expressed it better with the "Gods can't interfere - cue the mortal heroes" scenario...this is how I also see it best working for mortals to accomplish what the gods cannot (with a bit more "prevention" rather than direct confrontation with the EE). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 05:00:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by coach
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Officially, it's all under an NDA-cloud, as I recall, according to Ed.
see this i don't understand
with 4e and 100 year time skip, why can't NDA be lifted when talking about pre-1385 lore?
Because it takes time and effort, and therefore money. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands, of NDAs in effect. To review them and see which ones could be lifted and which ones couldn't would require a joint effort by the folks planning everything and the legal department.
On the other hand, leaving them in place costs nothing. And since WotC is basically ignoring everything pre-4E, there's no reason to worry about those NDAs from before.
And I'm sure that, if things were to change in terms of the NDA for this, Ed would share any info he may have with us here at Candlekeep. As a kind of follow-up to the previous questions he's been asked about them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 04:32:17
quote:
Originally posted by coach
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Officially, it's all under an NDA-cloud, as I recall, according to Ed.
see this i don't understand
with 4e and 100 year time skip, why can't NDA be lifted when talking about pre-1385 lore?
Because it takes time and effort, and therefore money. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands, of NDAs in effect. To review them and see which ones could be lifted and which ones couldn't would require a joint effort by the folks planning everything and the legal department.
On the other hand, leaving them in place costs nothing. And since WotC is basically ignoring everything pre-4E, there's no reason to worry about those NDAs from before. |
| coach |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 04:23:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Officially, it's all under an NDA-cloud, as I recall, according to Ed.
see this i don't understand
with 4e and 100 year time skip, why can't NDA be lifted when talking about pre-1385 lore? |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 20:38:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
A bunch of heroic mortals working cohesively could bring one down...at least it would make for a great epic story (for a home run campaign at least)....mortals suceeding where gods have failed. Aren't there stories like this (or similiar) somewhere, perhaps in greek mythology, where heroic mortals surpass their limitations like this? It kind of rings a bell in my head 
It still doesn't work for me... How could mortals do something that vastly more powerful deities can't do?
I think its more likely that the Three in Darkness are something else... Maybe they've got traces of divinity (more than a Chosen, but less than a demigod), maybe they're just the closest you can get to divinity without becoming a deity... Maybe they're rogue divine agents, or some sort of nasty extraplanar critter... Something like that could be reasonably opposed, without the mortals doing it being on a level at or near the gods. It still makes for an epic challenge, without invoking implausibility.
Not to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, Wooly, but- I have to disagree.
There are a number of scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head where this could in fact be the case, with the most common being the fantasy trope of 'the gods can't interfere directly, soo....' and cue the epic party. The one I've actually used in pitting a party against the EE is better, I think: The Evil has not yet escaped its prison completely. It can interact with the outside world a bit (enough to have gathered its cultists, as well as servitor beasties) and the PCs have to fight to keep it imprisioned, which they ultimately fail to do, but have one last chance to stuff the EE back in its hole by defeating the just released/reawakened (and not yet fully operational) baddie.
I understand (and generally agree with)your feeling that anything that the gods themselves fear is likely to be unassailable by mortals, but mythology is full of just that sort of scene. After all, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul dealt with Haask and Haargut (sp?) while still mortal, not to mention any number of gods. AND these aren't just any mortals; the Moonstars are a group led by a pair of Chosen, allied to several others, and with a membership littered with epic characters. More importantly, Khelben is quite the forward-thinker. I can think of few threats, that given a few centuries to prepare for, these folks couldn't handle.
Back on topic- I, too, agree that the Three in Darkness are likely something else. Given the source of the prophecy, I am inclined to believe that it might have something to do with the Trio Nefarious. Then again, it's just as likely something completely different. In the context of my game, I might use some really Cthulu-esque elder evils, just b/c I think it's fun- but then again, my PCs will come nowhere near these guys; they'll be totally off-stage.
EDIT: On further review, Wooly, I like your idea about the 'Rogue divine agents'. I'd already worked Malkizid into the narrative, so the concept of 'fallen' divine agents is already present in the campaign.... Food for thought. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 18:48:06
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
A bunch of heroic mortals working cohesively could bring one down...at least it would make for a great epic story (for a home run campaign at least)....mortals suceeding where gods have failed. Aren't there stories like this (or similiar) somewhere, perhaps in greek mythology, where heroic mortals surpass their limitations like this? It kind of rings a bell in my head
It still doesn't work for me... How could mortals do something that vastly more powerful deities can't do?
I think its more likely that the Three in Darkness are something else... Maybe they've got traces of divinity (more than a Chosen, but less than a demigod), maybe they're just the closest you can get to divinity without becoming a deity... Maybe they're rogue divine agents, or some sort of nasty extraplanar critter... Something like that could be reasonably opposed, without the mortals doing it being on a level at or near the gods. It still makes for an epic challenge, without invoking implausibility. |
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