| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 19 Sep 2009 : 01:54:28
Hello, all.
The 4E FRCG states that Netherese agents have "shadow infused flesh". I'd like to know if anyone can present evidence on whether or not "shadow" from the Shadowfell is a tangible or detectable substance.
Here's why I want to know:
I'm reworking the New Moon Pact, for 4th edition. The NMP is a secretive order of Selūnite lycanthropes dedicated to apposing Shar and Malar. The NMP appeared for the first time in the FR novel Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross, and was subsequently turned into a Paragon path, "New Moon Hunter", in Bestiary of the Realms: Volume 2 by Thomas M. Costa and Eric L. Boyd.
The Paragon path includes a number of powers and enhancements confered by Selūne to members of the NMP. I would like to adapt these enhancements for 4E. It occured to me in the post-Shade, post-Spellplague Realms, that it would be useful for lycanthropic servants of Selūne, who“s vocation it is to root out Sharran sleeper cells, secret shrines, safe houses, etc., to be able to smell shadow.
Thoughts?
Cheers, |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 16:13:35
Also, I rather think you should write this up as a pitch for a Dragon article. Drop me a PM/email and we can talk more about it, if you like! 
Cheers |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 16:12:03
Hmm. I think I understand where you've coming from.
On this point:
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I agree, Erik, that this does not give the player much information. A Shade could pass by in the ally behind the tavern where the PC is having a beer and she would sense it, but she wouldn't know where it was. It just tells the character that she has work to do; it serves as an adventure hook. I figure that if I keep it low powered, it can be a divine gift from Selune to NMP members, even at lower levels.
In that instance, as you originally posted (a channel divinity power that heightens your senses with regard to your foes), your PC would have to know to use the channel divinity power at exactly that moment that the shade was lurking there--and why would you burn a power unless you already suspected something was there to be sensed?
I think what I'm getting at is that you're building an *active* power for a *reactive* effect. Plus, it only has the one limited effect, and then it's over--or it lasts all day, in which case basically you're using up your channel divinity for a daily effect, which breaks the mechanical rules for CD. Channel Divinity effects are supposed to be encounter powers, and most are specifically geared toward combat.
I would suggest, if you're going with a paragon path anyway, that you drop the concept of a channel divinity power altogether, and just build a feat or two to cover the appropriate powers for an NMP PC. Selune already has a channel divinity power, and so PCs who follow the NMP should be able to take it if it works for them, or not if it doesn't. Also, not requiring folks to take a particular CD ability allows PCs of other-than divine classes to follow the path. (NMP seems appropriate for rangers, rogues, and possibly star warlocks? Particularly if the NMP is a little more ruthless than the norm. Hmm.)
I think it makes more sense for NMP characters to have a constant effect that they don't need to activate to *heighten* their senses. If you want it available in heroic tier, then make it a heroic tier feat.
Consider the following:
[Heroic Feat] New Moon Senses: You gain a bonus on Insight and Perception checks against creatures with the shadow template equal to your Wisdom modifier.
To explain: As written, this bonus applies equally to active and passive checks. Sensing someone reactively is a function of a passive perception check. Identifying someone as a shadow creature is a function of a passive insight check.
quote:
As you suggested, I would eventually like to develop Tom Costa and Eric L. Boyd's New Moon Hunter Prestige Class as a Paragon Path. At that point, I think the powers and feats would be more related to combat.
That sounds like a great way to do it. They'd get bonuses against shadow creatures, and maybe their utility power would be something like what I suggested, removing shadow creatures' invisiblity or concealment?
Measure it against the Wizard's True Seeing 10th level utility--it could either be comparable (and let you see everyone; a striker-esque or controller-esque ability) or it could purge the invisibility/concealment of shadow creatures (and thus benefit your allies as well as yourself; a leader-esque ability). Of those, I recommend the latter.
Consider the following:
Shadow Sense (11th level New Moon Pact Hunter ability): Your attacks that target creatures with the shadow template ignore concealment. You suffer no penalty to hit a shadow creature with invisibility, but you must make a perception check to locate the creature as normal.
Shared Shadow Sense
New Moon Pact Hunter Utility (Daily)
Minor Action Stance Close burst 10
All creatures with the shadow template in the burst lose the benefits of invisibility, concealment, and similar effects until the stance ends.
Cheers |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 20 Sep 2009 : 05:45:40
Fantastic input! Thanks, Erik.
Thanks for the heads up on the fixed DC. I hadn't thought of how it would be affected by increased levels.
I don't think of this as an ability directly related to combat, though. So defeating the invisibility, concealment, etc. of attackers is not really what I'm after. Not at this point anyway.
I think of it more as an ability that helps the New Moon Pact in their efforts to root out Sharran secret shrines, sleeper cells and agents. I imagine it as the ability to get some sensory cue if there is shadow nearby, whether or not the creature is in visible range. However, I don't want it to be a overly powerful, which is why I would not want the character to be able to the sense direction or intensity.
I agree, Erik, that this does not give the player much information. A Shade could pass by in the ally behind the tavern where the PC is having a beer and she would sense it, but she wouldn't know where it was. It just tells the character that she has work to do; it serves as an adventure hook. I figure that if I keep it low powered, it can be a divine gift from Selune to NMP members, even at lower levels.
As you suggested, I would eventually like to develop Tom Costa and Eric L. Boyd's New Moon Hunter Prestige Class as a Paragon Path. At that point, I think the powers and feats would be more related to combat.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 20 Sep 2009 : 02:06:51
I suspect that shadow by itself is just that--shadow. "Shadowstuff"--such as that used in spells or conjurations--is a magical creation and more of an energy than matter (like lightning or thunder).
Shadow-infused flesh may indeed have a distinct smell, so I think it's totally reasonable you could train yourself to smell shadow-related beings. It being a function of a feat is great, but to me it would make more sense as a virtue of a paragon path. I.e., at 11th level you gain the ability to "sniff out" creatures with the shadow template. Don't put a hard and fast DC on this, because character level and enemy level wreak havoc with that--rather, you should make it something more scalable like "all creatures with the shadow template take a penalty to bluff and stealth checks against you equal to your Wisdom modifier." If you wanted to be a little more generous, you could say, "all creatures take a -2 penalty; creatures with the shadow template instead take a penalty equal to 2+your Wisdom modifier."
As for the channel divinity feat prescribed, I would suggest that its teeth are too blunt to measure up to other channel divinity feats, and as worded, it tells you virtually nothing about potential attackers, other than that they are there. It isn't a combat feat, either, and the other channel divinities generally are.
I like the idea, though, and in keeping with it, I'll suggest something like this:
Selune's Shadow Sense
Encounter (Channel Divinity)
Divine * Close burst 10
All shadow creatures within the area of effect lose the benefit of concealment, invisibility, or similar effects, until the end of your next turn.
Just a thought!
Cheers |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 19 Sep 2009 : 22:34:41
Good ideas, thanks.
Okay, here's an idea for a 4E feat based version that is based on a binary sensing of presence rather than smelling:
"FEAT:
Channel Divinity: Selūne“s Shadow Sense
Prerequesites: Channel Divinity class feature; trained in Arcana; must be member of the New Moon Pact.
Benefit: You are granted by Selūne the power to sense, by a distinctive prickling on the skin, the presence of shadow matter. You may roll an Arcana skill check (with a +3 bonus) to sense if there is a creature with the shadow keyword, or a creature that possesses powers with shadow in their titles, within 20 squares (100 ft). You cannot sense the direction or the intensity of the shadow matter, only its presence. The DM sets the DC based on the number of creatures with shadow matter in the radius. The base DC is 26 for a single shadow creature. With every additional shadow creature within the radius, the DC is reduced by 2."
The radius of the shadow sense is particularly open to debate. If the radius were very large, one could enter a town and sense shadow but not have clue where to look. On the other hand, if the radius were extremely small, one would have a better sense of the shadow's location, but you might miss the presence of shadow in a town altogether.
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| Wenin |
Posted - 19 Sep 2009 : 19:09:57
It all depends on how you the GM wants to use utilize the "shadow" substance. If you're going to be using bad guys with shadow infused skin, and want them to be able to hide from PCs, then I'd suggest that the "shadow" substance is detectable like smell. It requires a spot check by someone that has Smell Shadow feat/ability. Allowing someone with shadow infused skin to hide from people with a spot vs hide.
shrugs |
| Afetbinttuzani |
Posted - 19 Sep 2009 : 18:52:24
Hmmm, no takers?
I haven“t read any of the novels in the Twilight War trilogy, but I thought that maybe someone who has might be able to offer some insight into how the properties of "shadow" are presented. Obviously it can be seen, but can it be felt?
Here“s what I“ve found regarding the properties of "shadow" in the 4E FRCG:
"shadow" can infuse flesh (FRCG p. 164), slow aging, allow one to become insubstantial, and be conjured as a "disk of solid shadow" by Shades (FRCG pp. 260-1) or as a "tentacle" by Dark Moon Monks (FRCG p. 240). So, it is something visible, that is potentially either insubstantial or substantial with the capacity to grab or deal damage (force & necrotic).
One possibility would be for Selūne to grant New Moon Pact lycanthropes the ability to "sense" the presence of shadow as an unpleasant physical sensation, like the way animals can sense the approach of bad weather. I wouldn't want it to be too precise, though. I wouldn't want it to be a game wrecker like the 2E Paladin ability "detect evil intent".
Thoughts? |
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