| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 07:23:38
I've had a few further thoughts about the Aearee since my article in the Candlekeep Compendium Volume VII
So I thought I would start a new scroll here to record some further musings about the avian creator race. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:04:42
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Since green elves and avariel predate the presence of moon and sun elves on Toril, I could see the avariel being the product of Aearee experimentation on green elves. Avariel also almost went extinct due to the presence/emergence of dragons.
Same as with Aearee.
And then, there's "the maiden of Highpeak" legend...
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I was wondering that myself. The Aearee were close to the fey races. It strikes me that there could be some connection between the Avariel and the Aearee.
And this might be a stretch, but even their name could be a clue: could the name "Avariel" be a corruption of Elf-Aearee
"Aearee-Elf".  The whole "dual culture" feature dovetails into it perfectly, too.
I asked, but so far there's no answer.
quote:
Here is another possibility. If it is true that Krocaa is the son of Remnis and Akadi. And if it is true also that Aerdrie Faenya is an aspect of Akadi. Then Krocaa may be the son of Aerdrie Faenya. And Syranita may be Aerdrie's granddaughter. It may partially explain why the fey and the Aearee were so close. May also explain why Syranita was close with Aerdrie and was absorbed into her when she passed away.
I won't drag elemental lords into it, because... well, they are elementals. Also, for some reason avatars of Syranita summons elementals, while Aerdrie Faenya summons avians.
Aerdrie Faenya indeed seems to be closer to Syranita than to Seldarine. But - correct me if you have seen any - there's no evidence for their relations being anything but peers. Maybe, their status was much the same from the very start?
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
There's some interesting lore there! I don't think it precludes the possible origins mentioned above. In Savage Coast myth (and it is only handed down as a myth) an elf named Aeryl traveled to Faerie where she was given wings. She is the ancestor of all Savage Coast Avariel.
[...]
I think it very interesting that even her name Aeryl could be linguistically related to the Aearee. Also the Savage Coast avariel call themselves Ee'aar, which seems also like it could be related to the name Aearee.
Or their diaspora. Between the time when dragons kicked their butts and the time when they discarded planar travel because they get mistaken for Celestials without being willing or able to play this game seriously there had to be some Avariel emigrants. Aarakocra did manage to spread around too, after all.
quote:
Here's one other cool thing. The Savage Coast Ee'aar use glassteel weapons. Glassteel was used by the Aearee who learned it from the Batrachi [...]
The weather control towers of Phwiukree atop the Star Mounts were made from this material. The fragments of those towers still lie broken and scattered around the tops of the Star Mounts to this day.
Aarakocra everywhere are fond of (and more importantly, tend to be skilled with) this stuff too, for that matter. So, maybe Snow Eagles Aerie and Maiden's Peak ruins are old Aearee outposts too?
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Aarakocra were not actually created by the Aearee, but rather are descended from them. They don't look that much different than the Aearee would have back in the day.
As likely as not. There are descendants of Fey folk and Sarrukh, after all... But why it couldnt't be both? They could create another subspecies or remix of their own just as well. Much like Zik-Chil / Xixchil apparently did.
quote:
The name Aarakocra appears to be a corruption of the name of the Western Flock of Aearee, called the Aearee-Krocaa, who revered the god Krocaa, the all-father of the Aearee pantheon.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 22:43:14
This is an awesome scroll!
I recently added this scroll to Candlekeep:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16566
I added it here because I feel that the creator of the Vulturan could have easily gleaned some of his magic from that of the Aearee. I'll also be using this scroll to supplement how the Vulturan will begin to look for the secrets of the Aearee in their own quest to "become more" than they are.
Thanks for all the info guys! |
| Barastir |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 13:09:20
It's very good stuff, indeed! Thank you for sharing, MalariaMoon! |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 18:21:27
Wow. This is amazing lore. Thank you, MalariaMoon! |
| Saer Cormaeril |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 17:13:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Agreed, good stuff. Though I do have a quibble: a mythallar is little more than a power grid. What you describe is a mythal.
This is, of course, debated by some scribes, as Ed has described 'mythallar' (via THO) as:
quote:
In the second quote (Ed speaking), Ed speaks of a mythal, and a mythallar, by "mythal" referring to the large magical field, and by "mythallar" referring to the network of magical linkages (the internal structure or network/framework within the mythal). Which was his original meaning and published usage of the word, even if later writers have used it differently.
Here's a link to the original posting of that text:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14621&whichpage=37
However, I agree with Wooly that you probably want to use 'mythal' in this context, since 'mythals' are composed of 'mythallar'. |
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 12:44:58
Thanks all for the kind words. And thanks to Wooly on clarification vis-a-vis the mythal. I wasn't sure of the correct terminology, and in fact was using mythal in my original draft, when a recent posting at Candlekeep left me thinking I was wrong :-) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2011 : 02:10:53
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Wonderful lore! I really enjoyed reading that! I wish I had a "like" button to click.  I look forward to reading more!
Doubly so.
I'm dropping this [almost wholesale, minus a few tweaks to conform with my own take on the Rookery] into in my campaigns.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 20:44:51
Agreed, good stuff. Though I do have a quibble: a mythallar is little more than a power grid. What you describe is a mythal. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 18:08:06
Wonderful lore! I really enjoyed reading that! I wish I had a "like" button to click. I look forward to reading more!
|
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 12:50:52
In a later scroll, I'll expand upon the Pinioned Pilgrimmage, and the attempts of a small group of Dire Corbies to regain the worship of Quorlinn and the power of flight. |
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 12:49:10
The Rookery of Whispers
Many legends are recounted by the bards and orators of the South. There some of the oldest civilisations of the Realms still thrive, and yet they are but societies of children when compared to the long history of Faerun. Before the rise of man, the Realms knew empires of dragons, giants and genies. Few signs of those great kingdoms remain, and yet there are civilisations older even than those venerable races. Sages refer to these first beings as the Creator Races. Most folk have never heard of them, and scant few traces of their domains remain. Yet the Creator Races were the first to harness sorcery, and it is said their achievements put even the high magic of the elves into shadow. Scant few traces there maybe, but even a morsel of their ancient power would be a potent force today.
In this scroll I bring together rumour, conjecture and a few droplets of truth to describe one city that appears to have survived the millennia since the Days of Thunder. It was an enclave of the Aearee, who mastered the skies as the birds do. So secret, so legendary, so suspect is its existence that the few who have ever heard of it know if only as the Rookery of Whispers. Once, long ago, the Aearee knew it as Pyrrhocax-Shara.
Introduction
Once or twice each decade, cloaked and disguised strangers appear in the taverns and festhalls of Threskel, asking about lost cities in the Riders to the Sky mountains. The identity of these agents remains a mystery; many suspect magic-hungry Red Wizards, others meddlers from the North or even yuan-ti. One drunk of Messemprar even avows such a stranger had the head of a raven hidden in the deep hood of its weathercloak.
The Riders to the Sky are a towering, impenetrable range of peaks, home to giants, riddling sphinxes and numerous dragons. Yet long before Unther and Mulhorand built their now ancient empires south of these mountains, the Aearee founded one of their most remote yet influential outposts. Pyrrhocax-Shara was concealed in an awesome mantle of spells, which kept it hidden from the world for countless centuries. Now this spell-mantle is broken, yet the Rookery of Whispers remains undiscovered, walled in by the reaching peaks and covered by sheets of scudding clouds.
History
Here I will recount the history of Pyrrhocax-Shara. Listen well, for it is a story older than most gods.
The Aearee of the Days of Thunder were formed of three flocks. Pyrrhocax-Shara was built by the Aearee-Quor, the People of the Dusk, whose features were that of the crows and rooks, and who settled in the South. From their homelands in the Orsraun mountains, their floating rookeries floated far and wide. Their arcanists learnt from and bettered arcane secrets stolen from the other Creator Races, the Batrachi and the Sarrukh. Quorlinn, their patron god was a thief and a sneak, and his people much the same. As a magpie is forever tempted to bring shiny baubles to its nest, the Aearee-Quor were enticed by magic. A specialised caste emerged amongst the arcanists – the spellfilchers, experts at appropriating the most curious and powerful magic from the other races inhabiting Faerun.
Of course, such behaviour was bound to make enemies. The Aearee-Quor’s spellfilchers needed a stronghold, a place where they could cache their ill-gotten treasures without discovery. In the valleys beneath the Shara mountains they began to build a city. Rocs and other great birds were sent south. They returned with lianas and vines from the jungles of Chult, creepers as thick as tree trunks. These were woven into three mighty nestholds, which were bound together with cables of flexible steel. Finally came the greatest magic of all; a trio of magic thrones stolen from the stars themselves.
Three mighty wizardesses sat upon each throne, and through the strength of their Art raised the city of Pyrrhocax-Shara into the sky.
Yet Pyrrhocax-Shara had been floating amongst the clouds for less than a year when Aedes, the greatest of the Quor’s spellfilchers fluttered into its first helm hall. In his claw he held a massive golden scale covered in arcane writing. Aedes had stolen one of the Nether Scrolls, mightiest of the magical texts of the Sarrukh.
The Quor sang praises to the Twilight Trickster in celebration of Aedes’ daring. However, their songs were songs were tempered with concern for their own audacity. If the Sarrukh discovered the architect of the theft, it could lead to war between the Quor and the Scaled Ones. The three wizardess lords of the Pyrrhocax-Shara decided that for the good of their people, their entire city should go into hiding. Thus as the sun set on the eve of midwinter on a date that was itself forgotten tens of thousands of years ago, the wizardess lords took their seats on their helm thrones as a flock of thirty rocs were harnessed to great chains on the city’s perimeter. Together, tremendous wings and staggering magic bore Pyrrhocax-Shara northwards.
The city reached a range of massive mountains on the northern borders of the Quor’s empire. These would one day be known as the Riders to the Sky mountains, and during the Days of Thunder they stood even taller than today. Amongst those reaching peaks, the spell-filchers hid their city.
There Pyrrhocax-Shara silently flourished. Its inhabitants delved into the mountain flanks, mining precious metals and carving out great caverns wherein they regulated the temperature to best incubate their eggs. Meanwhile its agents continued to gather magic from across the Realms. These treasures were scrutinized by the arcanists of Pyrrhocax-Shara, who mastered their secrets and oft-times improved upon them. Pyrrhocax-Shara’s creations were surreptitiously shared with the rest of the Aearee-Quor. Their innovations included the process by which the plumage of a roc could be sheened in impregnable adamantine, numerous enchanted monocles that allowed their wearers to employ various gaze attacks, and various advanced instruments for measuring magical fields, astrological movements and weather patterns.
Yet whilst Pyrrhocax-Shara experienced its clandestine renaissance, sinister changes were sweeping through the Aearee-Quor. As their empire became increasingly expansionist and militant, the People of the Dusk began to turn from their time-honoured worship of Quorlinn in favour of a mysterious power known as Pazrael. Corrupted by the demon prince, Pazrael ushered the Aearee-Quor from dusk into full darkness.
Under Pazrael’s urging, the Sharan empire brought war to their northern cousins, the Aearee-Syran and the Aearee-Krocaa. Only two of Quor’s rookeries refused to partake in the hostilities, or to accept the ascendance of Pazrael over Quorlinn. The city of Tienkoo-Shara was borne east, across the continent of Faerun, away from the tragedy that was befalling the Aearee. The inhabitants of Pyrrhocax-Shara were equally appalled at the warmongering and decadence of their brethren, but they did not flee.
Instead, its aging wizardess lords cast a mighty spell, conjuring a mythallar, a spell mantle that enveloped the entire city at the price of its creators’ lives. Thereafter, an ever present shroud of mist and cloud shielded Pyrrhocax-Shara from view. Intelligent beings that came within a mile of its location lost their way, being unwittingly misdirected until they had passed safely on by. Flying creatures were buffeted unceasingly by powerful gusts that forced them to turn away. So powerful was the magic that those who left the city forgot its name, and even forgot that they had ever visited its halls.
The rest of the world collapsed. Hard on the heels of the war of the Aearee, the first flight of dragons swept across Toril. The might of the dragons was too great for the weakened cities of the Aearee, and their civilization disintegrated. The few surviving outposts abandoned Faerun, heading west across the ocean or even fleeing to the stars.
One city endured. Wreathed in its protective spell-mantle, Pyrrhocax-Shara was forgotten. Yet its inhabitants did not dare leave the borders of their home, lest the mythallar’s curse of forgetfulness work its magic on them. The Quor had been made prisoners by their own defences. Thus Pyrrhocax-Shara became the Rookery of Whispers.
However, the mythallar’s powers only pertained to the world of Toril. Whilst the arcanists of Pyrrhocax-Shara dared not venture outside the physical borders of their city, the endless mysteries of the planes were theirs to explore. Thus the last of the Aearee-Quor became consummate planar travellers. Far and wide they wandered through the multiverse, witnessing great sights and pilfering even greater magic.
However, times passes differently across the dimensions. Quor planewalkers would return from a month long jaunt in the Astral plane to discover a decade had passed in Pyrrhocax-Shara. Inevitably, the population of the Rookery of Whispers dwindled. Many planewalkers never came back, lost to demons or devils or simply choosing not to return to their ailing city.
On Toril thirty-thousand years passed, but Pyrrhocax-Shara saw only a score of generations. Nonetheless, its population had halved, then halved again. Eventually, events in Faerun conspired to put a brutal end to the city’s isolation.
In -339 DR Karsus’ Folly brought a dramatic end to the human civilization of Netheril. His endeavour to supplant Mystryl as goddess of magic brought about a momentary cessation of magic across the Realms. It was enough to bring the floating enclaves of Netheril crashing to the ground, and it also broke Pyrrhocax-Shara’s ancient spell mantle. When magic returned the mythallar was warped and intermittent. Although still sufficient to misdirect most, it could no longer repel investigation by more powerful creatures.
Thus it came to pass that in -338 DR the mighty dragon Rauthstokh “Redbones” stumbled across the Rookery of Whispers and fell upon it. The red dragon destroyed the city and immolated the last of the Aearee-Quor. For a brief time he laired amongst the ruins, but soon discovered a side effect of the corrupted mythallar made him forgetful and confused. On several occasions he vowed to leave but dawdled, forgetting his earlier decision. Eventually however he mustered his wits and departed the ruin he had made, although he left most of Pyrrhocax-Shara’s magical treasures where they lay.
The empty ruins of Pyrrhocax-Shara lay undisturbed for another two centuries until the the arrival of a team of yuan-ti treasure hunters and their pterafolk minions. The yuan-ti managed to track down the Nether scroll stolen by Aedes several epochs before and escape the city, although they abandoned their pterafolk allies, who have laired in the Rookery of Whispers ever since.
As the years have passed, the spell mantle has continued to weaken. As yet, the Rookery of Whispers has not been discovered, yet rumours of such a place circulate the taverns of the Old Empires every decade or so. It seems somehow must have visited it, or at the very least seen it from afar. Eventually the day will come when Pyrrhocax-Shara emerges once more from its cloak of mist. Pierce its defences, defeat the monsters that have laired there ... the first adventurers to escape its ruins will return with magical treasures the Realms have not seen for thousands of years.
Layout
The Rookery of Whispers spans upon the upper slopes of a three peaked mountain in the centre of the Riders to the Sky range. Although the mountain has never been given a name by men, the Aearee-Quor called it Korakah-Crassiri, which can be translated roughly as “the Sheltered Perch”.
Beneath each peak rests one of the original nest holdings; the halls which held the spelljamming helms that bore Pyrrhocax-Shara aloft in its earliest days. Each nesthold equals the size of a modest castle. Originally woven from gigantic lengths of creeper, the interlaced vines were petrified by magic to create a unique structure. The ways inside the nestholds are twisted and confusing. Large chambers with organic, latticed walls can be found, but there are also countless tiny cubby holes, crawlspaces and secret paths intertwined with the walls and rooms.
Around these halls, further buildings were constructed – open sided, stairless affairs suited to the wings of their former occupants. Dizzying ravines split the city into three huans (wards). The steel cables and chains that bound Pyrrhocax-Shara together when it floated in the skies still exist, linking one huan to another. Flightless creatures might use such connections to traverse between huans, although the reinforcing spells that prevent rust and corrosion have not been cast for well over a thousand years. Such ways might well be sunder if put under any strain.
The northern huan is the largest. Its central hall still contains a major spelljamming helm; the only one to remain in the Rookery of Whispers. It is also the lair of an enormous behir that has gathered many of the city’s treasures to its nest.
The southeastern huan is inhabited by pterafolk who first came to Pyrrhocax-Shara as cronies of a group of yuan-ti. Over many generations, the dilapidating influence of the corrupted mythallar has blunted their minds – they’re a barbaric and bestial lot. Above the huan’s central hall is the corpse of an enormous roc, its mighty wings mantling the building. This battle-roc had its feathers sheened in adamantine by the Quor arcanists, now only this metal plumage and its bones hold together its form. Enterprising adventurers could make magical longswords from its flight feathers.
The southwestern huan has no living denizens, but the restless spirits of a few Aearee-Quor continue to haunt it. Mighty arcanists in life, they can summon deadly creatures from the elemental plane of air to defend their realm. The southwestern huan also features a large temple to Quorlinn – perhaps the only one that exists in the western Realms.
Finally, the Rookery of Whispers also extends underground. Several subterranean levels incorporate enormous incubation caverns, summoning chambers, alchemical laboratories and stashes of stolen treasure. The deepest depths connect with the Underdark.
|
| MalariaMoon |
Posted - 28 May 2011 : 12:38:44
I've really enjoyed reading about the Aearee, and Grey's work has inspired me to incorporate a ruined city of the Aearee-Quor into my Chessenta campaign. My adventurers have yet to find it, but there's been some enticing hints.
As follows is some further information on Pyrrhocax-Shara, the Rookery of Whispers. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 12:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would like to expand on K'ooriall at some point. I do think he works as an Aearee version of Koriel. Although I haven't quite got a bead on him yet. His lore is tricky.
I'm working on a little lore about the Great Bird of Night, the Aearee conception of Shar, and the offshoot of the Aearee that looked like owls, the flock of night, of which she was patron. I'm trying to track down all the owl-based D&D monsters that might be modern descendants of that race.
I've also got some Aearee linguistics lore on the Aearee language(s) including an Aearee dictionary.
Any news about this, Gray? I'm still intrigued about the relation between Shar and the Aearee, and curious about how K'ooriall/Koriel will be further developed. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 02:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Speaking of Chronomancy, I vaguely remember some type of 'magic' that allowed you to evolve or devolve a critter. Then again, I may be getting confused with Marvel's High Evolutionary.
Markustay, I found a spell called "Evolve", not in Chronomancer, but in the Pages From the Mages 2e sourcebook. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 03:36:11
We do seem to have wandered a little astray of the topic. You should definitely start a new scroll. That way other people can see it and participate. Also, that will leave room in this scroll for more Aearee related lore. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 15:43:32
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I think Poseidon may indeed be Deep Sashelas, but using "Poseidon" as an alias only. Consider that some Greco-Roman slaves of the Imaskari prayed to Poseidon, but Poseidon was barred from connecting to Toril. Deep Sashelas might have answered prayers in Poseidon's name. Claiming their worship either out of pity for his worshipers on behalf of the absent god, or as a power grab looking to score some additional worshipers by taking an unclaimed name.
My take is that they were always one and the same (and since we don't really know the history behind the Seldarine/Fey/Celtic pantheonic connections, it is plausible (I actually think Deep Sashelas is a far older power then the other Seldarine, and perhaps a fey deity).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I haven't researched the timeline for the Imaskari slave abductions. Grand History says that twin gates were opened in -4366 and the god barrier was erected shortly after, presumably in the same year. Not sure how that works in relation to the 3-4 peoples that were taken. Slaves were taken from Mesopotamia, Egypt, and probably Italy and maybe Greece. There are 2 portals, but at least three source regions for slaves.
I recently read a book about ancient India, and items from both ancient Greece and ancient China were found there, indicating that the ancient peoples 'got around' a LOT more then we thought (it is now assumed that there was a fairly well-established global trade going on). If they grabbed ships in the Mediterranean, they could have been a good mix of folk (sailors have always been notoriously 'multi-national').
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Note that the Imaskari need not have taken folks directly from Greece. There were Greek colonies in Italy beginning in the 8th century BC and after. It's possible that the slaves were taken from that area.
See my answer above. I also theorize moving-portals, that 'scooped-up' folk.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
You don't really need 3 portals I suppose. Egypt is close enough to Italy and to Mesopotamia that one portal could have been used to take slaves from both areas. Slaves could have been transported for some distance before traveling through the portal. Not sure if the Imaskari could use flying ships, carpets, or other magic tech on Earth. And can't rule out conventional modes of transportation either. Either way it could be easily done.
Yes, I have often though that the Dathite (Grecco-Romam interlopers) were just a handful of traders that were unlucky enough to get caught-up when the Imaskari were collecting folk from 'elsewhere'.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Or, the portal address could have been reassigned at some point. Jumped to a different location or time. Which would make slightly more sense if it were possible.
I also addressed this point above as well - I think the Imaskari had special 'people-gathering' portals that could move about and scoop-up large groups.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I should also mention it seems pretty clear that the portals were not aligned directly to Toril's timeline or even to each other's time. The cultures from which the slaves were drawn were not around over 5,600 years ago. But there's no requirement that portals be aligned chronologically. They can connect to any point in time as easily as they can to any point in space.
Agreed.
I also have another theory - the place all these folk came from was the fictional, D&D Earth, and not the 'real one'. Ergo, I postulate a place that doesn't exist now, that may have existed then, that could account for all the nationalities. What if the Imaskari encountered the Atlanteans? there may have been a place where people from all over congregated in the ancient workld - a place that rivaled Imaskari itself. there may have even been a war (wouldn't it be a hoot if imaskar sunk Atlantis? 
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
As for Kara-Tur. I don't have a lot of thoughts on the matter, save one: Kara-Tur was said in 3e to have a Spirit World plane instead of an Astral Plane. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the Spirit World of Kara-Tur was never any type of Astral Plane. Rather, it was the Feywild. Or at least the portion of the Feywild that was contiguous/coterminous with the lands of Kara-Tur.
The god barrier may have rendered Kara-Tur completely unable to connect to Toril's Astral Plane. Spells that tried to access the Astral may have shunted the users sideways into Faerie. I would submit that the gods of Kara-Tur may have established portals or what has been called a "soft border" from their divine realms in Toril's astral to the feywild. Then the god barrier could, in that manner, be bypassed.
My new theories about the 'Shou' and Anok-Imaskar actually shoe-horn into all this quite nicely. I no longer think the original 'Shou' (who I am going to refer to as 'the Anok' to avoid confusion) were human at all - I think they were spirit-folk. I think they either brought the Celestial Pantheon with them (unlikely), or the CB already had a presence in Realmspace through the indigenous Lung (Haltai) peoples. I feel this second theory is the superior one, because Shou-Lung literally translates to "followers of the dragon", and if those 'Anok' couldn't bring their gods with them (because of the Godwall), they may have embraced the religion of the local folk (as in the Kara-Turran natives, since the Imaskari themselves did not worship any gods). Note that the published GHotR entry does NOT say the dragon lead them 'from elsewhere', as the one in Brian's original did. Therefor, the interlopers (Anok) could have 'met the dragon' after their arrival (and hence, "followed him"). Since I think celestial (Lung) dragons are related to the spirit realms, this all works out. also, the very first paragraph in the k-T boxed set would indicate that Mei Lung Cheng Shan had been a round a LOT longer then the final days of Imaskar (or rather, his family-line existed for a long time in Realmspace).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Alternatively, the gods of the Shou slaves could have lived back over on the Great Wheel, not actually interloping. Unable to connect directly to their slaves on Toril due to the god barrier, instead of sending spelljammer ships like the Mulan gods, their solution was to establish portals to Kara-Tur's feywild and bypass the barrier that way.
I had something like this for the Vedic Pantheon as well (in the WotC Utter East thread), where I theorized that the few vedic gods present on Toril had traveled through 'the Realm of Dreams' to bypass the Godwall. Since I now think the 'Sea of Dreams' (Dreamtime) is actually the medium in which floats the Feywild, and I concur that the Feywild is also the 'Spirit World', then it all comes full-circle.
I also think the Sea of Dreams is the same as the Astral - just different names for the same misty, silvery 'sea'. This shoe-horns nicely with the stuff you and I discussed once before, about the ethereal actually being the 'Mists' of the Plane of Shadows (and also the Phlogiston, which would be the prime-material manifestation of that 'empty area' between crystal spheres/Worlds).
So Faerie sits in the Feywild, and all of that floats in the astral/dream sea (like a chain of islands, not unlike Ravenloft), and the Shadow Realms (Ravenloft, amongst others) mirror that, but in the Ethereal Sea, like some sort of 'dark opposite'. The ethereal sea is also the place from whence nightmares originate (the 'night terrors', not the horsies).
I see the ethereal and astral as 'dimensions', rather then planes, and would be likened to 'over-planes', in the same manner that demi-planes/domains/Spheres/etc sit within Planes (like a cosmic hierarchy). Also, the Border-ethereal becomes the mittlemarch - the 'Wood between the Worlds' - and is the place where all three realities meet (the material, shadow, and Spirit worlds). You enter the Border-area, and then travel 'up' or 'down' (figuratively - we are talking about 4-5 dimensional space here) to travel deeper into either the Feywild or Shadowfel.
So all the 1e/2e cosmology stuff was really (in hindsight) just an over-complication of a rather simple tier-system, and we had multiple names for the same places (which were actually 'planes within planes').
Now that I think about it, I think the Aboriginal Dreamtime would fit better as the border-Ethereal, since you can access both dreams (Astral/Feywild) and nightmares (Ethereal/Shadow) from there. It works better as a place which only gifted mortals - those with 'the Sight', or Shamans - could enter and interact with the Spirit world.
So the k-T/Oriental concept of 'the spirit World' would include all three - the border-area, the ethereal, and the astral. Weaker spirits/Kami would dwell near the prime material, in the Border-region, but more powerful 'spirits' (Fiends, Celestials, Archfey, Primals, etc) would be 'deeper' into the other two realms.
In fact, the Border-Ethereal could even be The Beastlands (Happy Hunting grounds), now that I think about it. It would make some sense that the Primals (beast Totems, etc) would want to stay fairly close to the Material World.
As for the 'great Wheel' - that was just a clueless prime's abstract model of how things really worked. The Outlands are just a 'hub', and the gate-towns are really just that - GATES.
And now this thread has gotten me to rethink another aspect of my over-cosmology - the great spire. What if that is the physical manifestation of that which killed Ymir? the spire itself is like a stake driven through the heart of an elder god (Ed's 'Watching Gods'), and thus, is the cause of the world's pain (and guess who lives there?) 
The Outlands are at the center of the material plane in my cosmology - quite literally, The Heart of 'the world'. I wonder if I have accidentally stumbled upon one of D&D's 'deeper truths'.
Thanks for not minding the side-chatter - I would create a separate thread, but I'm not sure what to even call it - "Lets talk about cosmic stuff?"  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 23:05:01
I think Poseidon may indeed be Deep Sashelas, but using "Poseidon" as an alias only. Consider that some Greco-Roman slaves of the Imaskari prayed to Poseidon, but Poseidon was barred from connecting to Toril. Deep Sashelas might have answered prayers in Poseidon's name. Claiming their worship either out of pity for his worshipers on behalf of the absent god, or as a power grab looking to score some additional worshipers by taking an unclaimed name.
I haven't researched the timeline for the Imaskari slave abductions. Grand History says that twin gates were opened in -4366 and the god barrier was erected shortly after, presumably in the same year. Not sure how that works in relation to the 3-4 peoples that were taken. Slaves were taken from Mesopotamia, Egypt, and probably Italy and maybe Greece. There are 2 portals, but at least three source regions for slaves.
Note that the Imaskari need not have taken folks directly from Greece. There were Greek colonies in Italy beginning in the 8th century BC and after. It's possible that the slaves were taken from that area.
You don't really need 3 portals I suppose. Egypt is close enough to Italy and to Mesopotamia that one portal could have been used to take slaves from both areas. Slaves could have been transported for some distance before traveling through the portal. Not sure if the Imaskari could use flying ships, carpets, or other magic tech on Earth. And can't rule out conventional modes of transportation either. Either way it could be easily done.
Or, the portal address could have been reassigned at some point. Jumped to a different location or time. Which would make slightly more sense if it were possible.
I should also mention it seems pretty clear that the portals were not aligned directly to Toril's timeline or even to each other's time. The cultures from which the slaves were drawn were not around over 5,600 years ago. But there's no requirement that portals be aligned chronologically. They can connect to any point in time as easily as they can to any point in space.
As for Kara-Tur. I don't have a lot of thoughts on the matter, save one: Kara-Tur was said in 3e to have a Spirit World plane instead of an Astral Plane. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the Spirit World of Kara-Tur was never any type of Astral Plane. Rather, it was the Feywild. Or at least the portion of the Feywild that was contiguous/coterminous with the lands of Kara-Tur.
The god barrier may have rendered Kara-Tur completely unable to connect to Toril's Astral Plane. Spells that tried to access the Astral may have shunted the users sideways into Faerie. I would submit that the gods of Kara-Tur may have established portals or what has been called a "soft border" from their divine realms in Toril's astral
to the feywild. Then the god barrier could, in that manner, be bypassed.
Alternatively, the gods of the Shou slaves could have lived back over on the Great Wheel, not actually interloping. Unable to connect directly to their slaves on Toril due to the god barrier, instead of sending spelljammer ships like the Mulan gods, their solution was to establish portals to Kara-Tur's feywild and bypass the barrier that way. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 19:39:21
We also have a t least one mention of Poseidon, who I assume is the same ancient power as Deep Sashelas (my assumption is that just because a certain power is venerated by a certain race, it does not mean that power 'belongs to them').
I think the Grecco-Roman peoples were an early (and failed) attempt by the Imaskari. I think they did start grabbing a few, but that alerted their gods, some of which decided to interlope-in.
Which is why when the Imaskari later decided another attempt at 'cheap labor', they first erected the Godwall to stop the same problem from happening again. My assumption here is that Godwall wasn't in-place until after the Dathite (Chondathan) broght there gods with them.
Io didn't challenge it then, because he probably figured it was a good idea at the time ("We're not hosting an intergalactic kegger down here." --- Zed from MiB)
So in my version, it was more of a cause-&-affect. You will note that in the Desert of desolatuion series, there are libraries FULL of information of 'other gods' (many of whom have no presence on toril). I assume this was done as research before the Godwall was erected, and also when they were narrowing down 'choice candidates' for abduction. One can further assume that the Mediterranean peoples were only the largest group we know about.
I'm re-doing my HB lore right now concerning Anok-Imaskar (which I believe was your creation to begin with). I am now leaning toward just a handful of Orientals (from earth or elsewhere) being brought-in to serve the 'Shou' (who I now think were of fey origin), and from those first few the religion spread to the indigenous peoples of Kara-Tur (who were also conquered by the Anok).
That means the Celestial Bureacracy had to have arrived immediately following the fall of Imaskar, but the Godwall was still in-place until recently, so I have to give it further thought. The only other conclusion is that the CB was brought in far earlier then when the Godwall was erected, which also makes little sense (although that's probably what's going to have to have happened). It would all work-out perfectly if the damn Godwall had just come down when Imaskar fell.
Unless... the Godwall was a localized phenomena... Hmmmm...
Random Musings....
Anyhow, as I've said in the past, I don't think of any deities as 'Earth gods', but rather as D&D deities that have a presence in many spheres, and earth just happens to have a high percentage of them. Although the argument could be made that that so many 'known' pantheons originated on earth, the truth is that only a small percentage have. There are at least three pantheons in the 1st print-run of DD that are NOT of Earthly origin, and there are all the other pantheons - the ones from Demihuman Deities and Monstrous mythology, that do not have a known* presence on Earth.
This why I think each world has it's own pantheon, which is almost like a 'farm-team' (minor leagues) of 'The Gods', and from those world-specific pantheons many multi-spheric powers arise and challenge the deities in other spheres (which happens all the time). In this theory, I would say that some sort of native American/Celestial bureaucracy amalgam was earth's original, or perhaps even the Celtic (although I connect them to the fey). That means the Norse, Greek, Pharonic, etc.., pantheons are all from worlds where those pantheons ruled supreme, and back on those 'homeworlds' there are probably plenty of other gods from those pantheons that never make it off-planet.
And sometimes when they interlope they take new names (probably when they kill a local deity and absorb it's followers), or they go by the same or similar name. This occasionally causes some weirdness, as in the case of Ilmater (amongst others). My assumption there is that the Finish 'Ilmatar' was established on Toril at some point, and she was absorbed by a male-aspected power (probably Issek of the Jug from Newhon) who took her name when he took her followers.
*I say 'Known' because my assumption is that the D&D Earth is the same one featured in the Gothic Earth setting, and in that setting we see many 'monstrous types' flying well below the radar of the 'scientific community'. Ergo, on the mythical, 'Fantasy Earth' (in D&D), any and all of those pantheons may have been present at some time. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 06:01:49
Well, the Imaskari brought over Greco-Roman slaves who settled Chessenta. I don't think they were able to bring their gods with them due to the god barrier erected by the Imaskari. The only way the Mulan deities were able to get in was by sending over manifestations (uber-avatars) by means of spelljamming or some kind of end-around the barrier.
Although, the question has been raised before as to whether Suné is an aspect of Venus who managed to sneak in somehow. Is it coincidence that Suné spelled backwards is Venus without the V?
I have also wondered whether Gond is an aspect of Vulcan/Hephaestus. Though Goibhnie, the god of smiths from the Celtic mythos seems a more likely candidate. He could have been brought in by Oghma, a fellow member of the Celtic mythos. Note that both Oghma and Gond live in the House of Knowledge. Even the name Gond seems like it could be cognate with the name Goibhnie.
Also, there is Melith, a god in ancient Chessenta. I think he later became known as Milil. But I seriously wonder if he might have started out as an aspect of Apollo who managed to sneak in somehow despite the god barrier.
Tyche is a very old god in Faerûn. I don't know if she was brought in by Imaskari slaves, I think she may well predate all that. My own theory is that she was brought in by Selûne during the War of Light and Darkness between Selûne and Shar. Shar had brought in demons, devils and all manner of fiends and dark gods by means of the Shadow Plane to wage war for her against her sister. Selûne out of desperation sought aid by means of the Infinite Staircase which originates in her palace in the Gates of the Moon, and which connects to all realities. I figure Selûne traveled the staircase to other worlds where she discovered good gods and celestials who would come to her aid. Oghma I feel certain is one of these. Tyche as well. Possibly also Silvanus. And after the war had ended, they stayed or left behind avatars/aspects of themselves in order to maintain a presence.
I figure the gods who came to Selûne's aid during the War of Light and Darkness may not have required actual worshipers in Faerûn, having received some kind of special dispensation or diplomatic immunity of a kind. Native peoples of Faerûn may have taken up their worship as time went on. It's just a theory but one I am partial to. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 23:56:01
I can see a lot of that going-on as well.
I think we have a little bit of a 'chicken or the egg' dilemma, though, in regards to human sub-groups and deities. For example, did some members of the Finnish pantheon stumble upon Toril, and then bring over some of their followers (to get the ball rolling, as it were), or did the humans arrive first, through some gate, and their faith called to their gods?
I use the Finnish pantheon only as an example (because I am currently working on a conversion with them in it). The same could be said for most human groups and their pantheons. We know what happened with the Mulan and the Pharonic & Sumer-lonian pantheons, but I really don't feel comfortable applying that to every instance of interloper gods in Faerûn. I'd like to think that there is a lot of cross-pollination going on, in regards to the divine.
And also in regards to mortals, which shoe-horns into what you said above. For instance, suppose a few Grecco-Roman types got into Toril (which is one of my theories regarding the 'Dathite' people - the proto-Chondathan group), most likely brought in by some early experimentation on the part of the Imaskari (which later lead to them kidnapping entire peoples). It could have been a very small group of Tyche worshipers, which would have gotten her attention focused on Toril. Seeing no other 'fortune' deity, she brings over more of 'her people' to establish a 'divine beach-head', Those people, in-turn, also venerate other members of the Grecco-Roman pantheon, which then alerts those other gods, who may or may not decide to interlope.
So it a sort of mutual, two-way mechanism, with a handful of mortals moving about, and then the gods being brought with them, and then the gods open up more gates to strengthen their foothold, and then other gods from the same world are brought through with the new mortals, and so on, ad infinitum.
Which makes divine intervention part of evolution on a magical world. Whether the gods are actively 'steering' genetics, or they are just 'stirring the pot', either way the end result is the same.
Here's one for you - we can base your theories of 'accelerated evolution' on real science. Species adapt and change faster dependent upon the size of the gene-pool they can draw from. On a world like Toril, that is filled with thousands of gates to hundreds of other worlds, the available gene-pool is widened exponentially, thus accelerating the natural evolutionary process.
Magic & science working together, to bring us a brighter - or darker - tomorrow. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 22:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Evolution happens FAR faster then anyone ever imagined - entire species can change drastically within just a couple of generations.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm aware that evolution can proceed at a remarkably fast pace. And I am somewhat persuaded by the advocates of punctuated equilibrium. But I simply don't accept that 37,000 years is enough time to replicate Earth's entire biome under any plausible version of evolutionary theory.
Heck, most species on Toril seem to have stabilized in their current forms many thousands of years ago. So evolution wouldn't even have had the whole 37,000 years to accomplish the deed.
But if you posit alternate laws of physics for Realmspace (possibly including magic) to accelerate the changes, or divine influence guiding or pushing evolution along on an aggressive schedule and encouraging speciation, then I could see evolution playing a role.
For example, look at what humans have done with dogs. All domesticated dog breeds are thought to descend from canis lupus, the common wolf. In approximately 10,000 to 20,000 years time, all the breeds of dog (canis lupus familiaris) from great dane, to chihuahua, to saint bernard, to poodle, have been bred by humans, selecting for specific traits, to produce the wide diversity you see in that species today. If gods took an interest in "mortal husbandry," which seems likely that they have, then maybe, just maybe you could see the kind of speciation on Toril that would lead to the diversity you see in the Realms today. I could see Chauntea taking an active role in that.
Of course, one might consider that they are not required to be so subtle as to merely push evolution along. They can just create species. Or transplant them from other pre-existing worlds. Which just seems easier to me, and explains things quite nicely. Either gods are copycats, plagiarizing their "creations" from what other gods are doing on other worlds. Or they are like Johnny Appleseed, transplanting species from world to world.
No wonder so many races have racial patrons. You see Gruumsh, Garl, Kurtulmak, Tiamat, Annam, Maglubiyet, Corellon, Moradin, et al. on every game world precisely because they are actively spreading their favored races to new worlds. I wonder how they are doing that? Does each world involve an independent recreation of the race? Or are they conning their followers to come to a new world through promises or prophesies? Or are they abducting their followers? I could see a hunting party getting lost in a sudden snowstorm and finding themselves lost in Faerûn when the snow melts. Or a blanket of mist envelopes a village and when the mists clear away, the village finds itself situated under strange skies and suns.
Maybe Emantiensien the World Tree is responsible for seeding D&D game worlds with new plant life. Psilofyr may spread the spores of fungi. Nature gods may help seed worlds with all the mundane fauna.
Or maybe its overdeities who are responsible for such phenomena. Maybe overgods, like Ao, are cosmic forest rangers--the ecologists of the multiverse--managing habitats and ecosystems from world to world. They secretly encourage speciation, preserve ecologies, and discourage invading species from taking over. All from behind the scenes. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 16:05:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I really only see 3 possible explanations. Either most of Toril's species are interlopers. Or divine beings created life on Toril echoing the life patterns of similar worlds (Earth among them) as a template for what they recreated on Toril. Or the physical laws of Toril allow for much faster evolution than is possible in our science-based universe.
In order...
1) Agreed. Toril has it's own unique animal species, and others were brought with interloping sentients (or wandered through portals accidentally).
2) You didn't mention my 'one world' theory, but this point is related. I don't believe 'the gods' duplicated life found elsewhere, I believe there was but one world originally (The 'True World', Midgard, etc), and that is where they created 'life'. This also shoe-horns into #1 above (both 1 & 2 get rolled into one theory). This also works well in regards to 'Faerûnian myth' (the Sundering & Abeir), and FR's premise of 'inter-connectivity'.
3) Nope. Science is flat-out wrong on this point. Carbon-14 dating is a sham (different groups get WILDLY different results), because the amount of carbon in the atmosphere at any given time varies significantly, and would skew the results (asteroid-strikes and large volcanic eruptions could add centuries, if not millenia, to results). As for evolution happening slowly - Read This. Evolution happens FAR faster then anyone ever imagined - entire species can change drastically within just a couple of generations. For all we know, the Bible may be far more accurate then scientists on this one point.
They have found mammal remains in the stomachs of sauroids, and vice-versa, which greatly condenses the supposed 'timeline' they came up with years ago. Those old, silly 50's movie showing cavemen and dinosaurs together might not be so silly after all.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I strongly disagree with you that "magic" is some kind of lazy design cop-out. What I would find to be a cop-out is failing to explore the logical implications of such a fundamental design concept. It would be lazy to assume Toril is too much like Earth.
I hope you don't think that was aimed at YOU. 
I meant that for when it is used by official sources - I feel as if they are just hand-waving stuff. A certain amount of it is to be expected (and like I said, in FR all the more so), but after awhile one wants at least a few plausible explanations, and not the tired, old "they came from another world" story, or "it's magic!"
I probably HATE parallel-evolution far worse then 'interloping' and 'time-travel' reasoning. This is why in my proto-cosmology I try to connect and explain EVERYTHING. For instance, although Drow first appeared in GH products, chronologically they appeared in FR far earlier. There is also a mention of Erelhei-Cinlu in a Realms product, which one can draw the conclusion that at some point in time, the FR drow were aware of that settlement. Ergo, in my work on the Elven Netbook, I theorized that the GH city of Erelhei-Cinlu was actually settled by FR drow using a deeportal (using material from the excellent 3rd party source, Beyond Countless Doorways, and their Underland concept), and for a time, before the exact location of the gate was lost, the two interacted.
That way, we don't have to suppose that the descent Curse happened on multiple worlds, but rather, happened on Toril and affected multiple worlds. That's the kind of explanation I prefer - one piece of lore, multiple uses. Things like aberrations and Outsiders become easy to explain given PS and SJ, and we could even extend that to RL, in regards to undead (there may have been but one original source for Lycanthropy and Undead in the multiverse).
It may be because I was a GH-DM first, and am also a fan of many fantasy worlds, that I like to think of D&D itself as 'the setting', and each wolrd is just that - one world inside a huge mega-setting.
So interloping doesn't really bother me at all, except when it comes to each individual racial sub-group. Whether it be humans, dwarves, elves... whatever... I prefer to say that one group (maybe two) wound-up on a world, and the setting-specific ones evolved from that first group. Something like Avariel may be an exception - MAYBE - but for the most part, I think the sub-races (including human groups) should have evolved on the worlds independently (from those first interlopers). I do allow for far more leeway where FR is concerned, due to the nature of it's portal-network, but the shear number of groups that have come 'from elsewhere' has become a bit of a running joke.
As for 'the gods' - that's easy. There really is only one group of gods, and from those come all our world-specific aspects (which may or may not have different names). The creation-myths (and others) are the same or similar because they originated on whatever world those powers originated from, and become part of that deity's dogma (regardless if some of the parables actually happened on other worlds). Some minor-deities (who have yet to flex their 'divine muscles') may be found on only one world, but the majority of gods will always be drawn from a common pool of multi-spheric powers (the demihuman deities being the best example of this). Ergo, religions may be similar form world to world, but that doesn't necessarily mean those people came form some other world.
And this thread now has got me thinking about something else I've been pondering - the Shou - and I think I need to greatly revise my thinking in their regard. GREATLY revise (but that's fodder for another thread).
Sorry for the further side-tracking - I enjoy the back-and-forth with you, and a lot of my best ideas have come from our conversations. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 02:49:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not a big fan "blame it on magic" or "they came from elsewhere". I find its a bit of a cop-out for lazy design (even a fantasy world needs to make sense). Some of it is fine, and in FR perhaps a bit more so, since there is an underlying premise to that effect, but still, it gets old fast.
Well, ordinarily, I would agree with you. But I wasn't merely hand-waving away the design issues. What's important to me is that when a major design element is introduced, that all the ramifications of that change are carried through, applied consistently and reasoned out to their logical conclusions.
In the Forgotten Realms it's long been established that Toril is (or at least has been) closely connected to Earth and other worlds by means of gates, portals, planar rifts and other methods. In fact, the "Forgotten" in the name refers specifically to Earth and how the once closely connected Realms have been forgotten on our side of things. By implication, many of our tales of magic and mythical creatures are not simply fantastical fabrications but based on fact arising from past interactions between our worlds.
The planar fabric of Toril is like a sieve; it's a permeable membrane through which gods, people, and creatures are documented as passing back and forth for ages. Given that fact, one should assume that many more undocumented species have crossed between the worlds. This may even be a major explanation for why you find oaks and elms and squirrels and other Earth species on Toril (or vice versa), and not more completely alien species.
You see this even on Earth. For instance, marsupials didn't evolve separately in the Americas and in Australia through parallel evolution. Rather, marsupials traveled from South America across Antarctica to Australia in the Cretaceous, back when those land masses were still connected. Or, according to one theory, by rafting across the narrow gap between the continents.
I find the idea of migration of species between worlds more palatable than assuming parallel evolution. Especially with most surface life having been extinguished in Toril by an ice age that only ended around 37,000 years ago. 37,000 years is just not enough time for life to evolve independently -- not to mention evolve to be a near exact copy of Earth's biome. At least, not under Earth-like physical laws.
I really only see 3 possible explanations. Either most of Toril's species are interlopers. Or divine beings created life on Toril echoing the life patterns of similar worlds (Earth among them) as a template for what they recreated on Toril. Or the physical laws of Toril allow for much faster evolution than is possible in our science-based universe.
But all three of those premises seem equally valid to me. I couldn't say which one is correct. Perhaps even a combination of two or all three.
One other thing to consider is that the physical laws of Toril are different. The stars in the sky are not distant suns. Ed has established that gunpowder does not work in the Realms. If gunpowder is brought to the Realms from Earth it does not explode. Smoke powder apparently works according to different principles. An important ramification of this is that chemistry doesn't work the same way on Toril as it does on Earth. There may not even be atoms or chemical bonds or molecules as we conceive them. There may not be DNA. Toril may instead use physics based on something like the pythagorean monadic theory. Or maybe it is based on medieval-style alchemy. Biology may be based on humors. Whatever the physics of Toril, it is not the same as Earth's.
Magic, however, does exist on Toril. And as exotic as magic may seem to Earthlings, it is mundane to the populace of Toril. It is part of their physics. For them, magic is a natural phenomenon, not a supernatural one. Magic is governed by rules and forces that are fathomable (to some extent) and are presumably testable, repeatable and subject to discovery by the scientific method. I don't have a problem with using magic to explain how things work in Realmspace if the rules are applied consistently and logically in a well-thought out way.
I strongly disagree with you that "magic" is some kind of lazy design cop-out. What I would find to be a cop-out is failing to explore the logical implications of such a fundamental design concept. It would be lazy to assume Toril is too much like Earth.
That evolution and chemistry and gravity work the same way. Why don't trees magically summon rain clouds or divert rivers to nourish themselves? Why haven't predators evolved magical abilities to summon prey for easy devouring? Or use portals to trap their food? Or charm spells to entice prey into their maws? Life that evolved on Toril should naturally have developed spell-like abilities for use in every ecological niche. These are questions that deserve pondering. (And perhaps even deserve their own thread.)
One possible answer is that most species on Toril evolved elsewhere, under different physical laws and have only recently migrated to Toril. A theory based on planar panspermia or Von Daniken-style seeding seems more plausible to me than evolution to explain the degree of biologic diversity on Toril given the short time-frame.
Magic intrigues me as a design concept. My complaint is not that it is overused, but rather that it is not explored enough and in consistent fashion, thinking through how it would impact the campaign world in every facet. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 15:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Speaking of Chronomancy, I vaguely remember some type of 'magic' that allowed you to evolve or devolve a critter. Then again, I may be getting confused with Marvel's High Evolutionary.
There's a spell in Chronomancer called "Articus' devolutionary warrior", and it devolves some creatures (I think the spell states that elves cannot be devolved, for they didn't evolve from "cave elves"). And in Hsssthak's tomb in 1e Lords of Darkness there is a spell that increases the intelligence of a being, maybe "evolving" it. It is associated to the Nether Scrolls, there.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aside from time portals and that sort of thing, one could also speculate on Sages with some necromantic abilities (or perhaps even priests) who found some old fossilized bones and then 'rezzed' the creature to study it. By the same token, a wild-magic surge (like the Spellplague or ToT) could have spontaneously rezzed a bunch of such ancient creatures (thus making them viable for survival).
In our world, where some pleistocene animals fossiles are organic but dinosaur fossiles are inorganic (it's true, there are not dinosaur bones in museums), necromantic use would be limited. But we must remember dinosaur apparently lived in a much more recent past in the Realms.
But the question is: why did they become extinct? There is food for them in the Realms? The plants that exist now can be digested by the herbivoral dinosaurs, or there are plants in the present similar to those they could eat? There is enough of this plants for the herbivoral dinosaurs, and enough meat for the carnivores in nowadays Realms? And how about the oxygen percentage in the atmosphere?
Besides, if the animals from the past (dinosaurs or pleistocene animals) were extinct through competition, wouldn't they once again be subject to these pressures? Are they in a population large enough to reproduce largely in some generations, or adventures would deal only with isolated creatures? Wouldn't creatures back from the past make normal animals disappear, through competition?
(At least dragons sleep for ages, and sometimes theu just don't need to compete for food. And about the dire animals, well, if dragons can eat ROCKS and METAL, what protection some puny bony ridges would provide? Crunchy cows? But OK, maybe it could be somehow useful against other creatures, even if I think ridges on elbows could hurt the animal, and be more of a disadvantage. And remember, cows with plates already exist: they are called gorgons!)
But Markustay, we are sidetracking this thread... Maybe we should talk about dire birds - and hollowed bone ridges! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 14:30:31
I'm not a big fan "blame it on magic" or "they came from elsewhere". I find its a bit of a cop-out for lazy design (even a fantasy world needs to make sense). Some of it is fine, and in FR perhaps a bit more so, since there is an underlying premise to that effect, but still, it gets old fast.
Anyhow, a 'dire cow' (with bony ridges) would be far less appetizing to something like a dragon, then something soft and mushy, say, like a human or a halfling. The bony plates act in the same fashion as they did for the armored sauroids - they were a deterrent (and fantasy settings in-general are rife with LARGE predators).
Speaking of Chronomancy, I vaguely remember some type of 'magic' that allowed you to evolve or devolve a critter. Then again, I may be getting confused with Marvel's High Evolutionary.
Aside from time portals and that sort of thing, one could also speculate on Sages with some necromantic abilities (or perhaps even priests) who found some old fossilized bones and then 'rezzed' the creature to study it. By the same token, a wild-magic surge (like the Spellplague or ToT) could have spontaneously rezzed a bunch of such ancient creatures (thus making them viable for survival).
The possibilities are endless. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 13:04:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the animals had time to move to better climates during such events, and survive, unlike our own prehistoric animals, but they have 'evolved' into forms better-suited for survival in such a hostile and heavily-contested environment as a fantasy world (hence, the 'bony ridges' on dire animals).
Thinking as an evolutionist, bony ridges in the animal's brow, elbows and shoulders doesn't make any sense, or give them any advantage besides making them look uglier, meaner or tougher. Saber tooth forced smilodons and other "cats" to have a limited diet, and different prey and hunting strategies than our - more generalist - recent felines (note: there were many other saber toothed mammals, but I'll stick to these for my comparison). So, these evolutive developments should bring some advantage, and be discarded when it turned into a disadvantage.
Bigger animals in a warmer (non-glacial) climate would have some metabolic limits, and food income in these cases have to be huge! You can say that there is plenty of food in a world where dragons live, but dragons are magical and can eat almost everything (even non-organical matter, at least in 2e). And I'm not considering the oxygen taxes of the atmosphere, for example, or the competition between normal and dire animals - in many situation they just would not co-exist.
That's why I'd put Pleistocene animals in a cold, isolated environment, and once again ignore dire versions of ordinary animals. They evolved, yes - into the normal (and more versatile) animals, just as it happened in our world. Remember the real rule is not "the survival of the strongest", but "the survival of the fittest".
Finally, I think making them more uncommon makes them sort of special. They are fascinant and exotic animals, and you could have specific conditions or environments to use them (chronomancy, maybe, or a "lost vale" concept in the Endless Sea of Ice or in the Great Glacier). That's what I was asking about, in first place. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 06:22:30
The answer Ed gave me preceded the GHotR.
You can't have dinosaurs AND an ice age...
I had a lot more here, but I think I may need to take another 'FR break' for awhile.
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 04:15:28
Not sure in what context Ed answered you, but Grand History of the Realms p.5 says "earliest days of recorded history begin at the end of a great Ice Age, some 37,000 years ago, when the last glaciations largely ended and the great ocean receded to reveal dry land." And in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide p.42 it talks about how Dendar ate the sun. "Global temperatures plummeted, and soon, most life on the planet became extinct." It goes on to tell how the Days of Thunder began when all the ice melted: "Eons passed before sunlight warmed the world once more. Oceans thawed, then receded, allowing dry land to rise above the frigid water." Maybe the Shadow Epoch was actually a lot of little ice ages, but the indications are that it was an extinction level event that blanketed the world in ice for eons. While the term eon just means an indefinitely long period of time, it usually implies a timescale of geological significance. Eons in this context could mean a few thousand years or a few million or even billion years.
The lore does imply that some life survived. Presumably the Sarrukh, as the Shadow Epoch is detailed in Sarrukh myths, and the World Serpent is named as one of the gods who fought the Primordials during that period. We might also surmise that the aquatic creator race survived, deep in the oceans beneath the ice where the water was still liquid.
Not sure if humans survived the ice, or came about after it ended. But humans were definitely around during the Days of Thunder. Grand History says "Though humans did exist during this time, they were primitive and apelike, using only simple tools and living in caves." We might take the "apelike" reference to imply that humans were a lower form of hominid during the Days of Thunder.
There is enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that whatever passes for the laws of physics in the Forgotten Realms may allow for some kind of punctuated evolution where species advance dramatically in a short amount of time. Evolution may exist in the Realms but progress way more rapidly, or have much shorter periods of stasis between changes in species.
This could be the effect of different mechanisms for mutation. I don't think we can be sure that life in the Realms is based on DNA. The alchemical bonds which make up the building blocks of life may work on entirely different principles. One might refer to the theories of Pythagoras and Aristotle regarding preformationism for inspiration regarding some alternate methods on how such a thing might work in the Realms.
I think I mentioned faerzress as a possible mutagenic factor, and there may be other, magical forces at work. Not to mention the very Weave itself. The natural flows of raw magic around Toril may cause mutation in species. And given that it's magic, it may alter species in a more meaningful or positive/beneficial way than mutation on Earth, which is usually more negative than beneficial to the afflicted offspring. Just a couple of simple adjustments to the laws of nature might explain the more rapid evolution of species on Toril. Firstly that mutations occur more often, and secondly that the net effect of mutation tends to be more positive under Realms physics than in Earth's scientific universe.
As for your view of the gods evolving as well, I share it. There is even some evidence of it. We know that Earth Mother is a more primitive aspect of Chauntea, wild and untamed. No doubt before that she was apelike back in the Days of Thunder (at least the human conception of her anyway) and going back through time she may have been more reptilian when the Sarrukh were around during the Shadow Epoch. Or maybe octopoid as first conceived by the aquatic creator race in the depths of the ocean. Back before that, she might have been a jelly fish, or krill or algae. I am very fond of the notion that divine "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny."
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| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 21:23:20
According to Ed (from a question I asked long-ago), there was no 'great ice-Age' in the Realms, but rather a series of minor ones (like our RW 'little ice-ages'). There have been incidents - like tearfalls and sunderings - which should have caused something of that magnitude, but 'the gods' mitigated the outcomes, causing them to be less severe, and things were able to survive (this last part is suppositon on my part, based on Ed's answers).
So the animals had time to move to better climates during such events, and survive, unlike our own prehistoric animals, but they have 'evolved' into forms better-suited for survival in such a hostile and heavily-contested environment as a fantasy world (hence, the 'bony ridges' on dire animals).
There was also a 'dire Owlbear' - it is called a giant owlbear, and is much more feral (if you can believe) and dangerous then its 'normal' counterpart. It is mentioned in Cormyr (the novel), but it also later says they are 'no more'. When Brian James was asked about the Redwoods in northern cormyr (4e), which was my own homebrew originally, I had answered that several 'lost species' had appeared within the new forest, including the small 'forest rothe' (which still exist in the Underealms as deep rothe) and the Giant Owlbear, amongst others.
And evolution is something that should be included in some nature deity's portfolio, if it isn't already. Evolution need not be based entirely on science (and I personally don't feel it is), but rather taps into the very essence of life itself - that 'yearning' all things have to survive. It goes beyond mere thought - it is part of the very fabric of our cellular structure, which makes changes to us (and everything else) as conditions change. If 'life' isn't divinely inspired, then I don't know what is.
And on (Ed's) FR world, life = magic, so magic itself is one-and-the-same as the process which allows creatures to adapt and change. They go hand-in-hand, and magic is part of that process.
Sorry for the minor derailment Gray.
As for 'the gods' (at least the proto-ones, not the ascended deities), I think they form out of the communal awareness (overmind) of species-identity - something animals have but humans have lost (but other races may still have some inkling of). These very primitive 'gods' (more like beast-totems) start-out like the 'reptilian brain' in psychology, but evolve over-time just as the race does. So yeah, the 'bootstrapping' thing you mentioned is cause-and-effect, with each feeding the other. As the species grows and evolves, so does it's 'god', and at some point it achieves self-awareness, and that's when it would begin to 'tinker'.
The very first mortal gods may have been created this way, but as time went on, and hero-worship kicked-in, the 'racial overmind' would have lent part of it's energy to these demi-powers, who would have grown on their own over time (into deities, which could have out-stripped the racial awareness that gave birth to them). As species grew into civilized, sentient races, the need for these 'primal spirits' lessened, and this is where we get many of our 'lost gods'. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 18:20:44
Well, if genetic laws happen the same way in the Realms, and magic doesn't interfere very much, natural selection would exist. Simply because there are ambiental pressures and the cycle of life and death works. I just don't know if there is enough time for evolution to occurr, considering this 70,000 years of Realms.
I've totally forgotten about the dire animals. Actually, I never considered them very much, because they look to me as a kind of "misinterpretation of a rule". Some game designer once said "if there is a dire wolf, why not having a dire bear, a dire badger, or even a dire canary?"
However, "dire wolf" is the actual name a pleistocenic variety of wolf, Canis dirus. That's it, a different species, a little bigger and with a larger head, in proportion. Just as the jaguar in comparison to a leopard (paleonthologists believe jaguars look similar to leopard's ancestors, by the way), and not an overly large variation with those awful bony ridges that came from who knows where, designed only for players having a meaner version of the animal to beat.
Not every pleistocene relative of nowadays animals is larger, but many were, just because animals that live in cold environment tend to be larger (to avoid loss of heat). But there is no need of dire bears when you have already the cave bear, and no reason for dire elephants when there are mammooths and mastodons around.
However, my question was: there is a place specially inhabited by pleistocene animals? Or they simply are still there, and never became extinct at first place? |
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