| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 21:36:22
Is there an actual name for 'Orkish' in FR?
I could have sworn I came across it once, but I would have no idea where to look now.
Also, do all orcs and Goblinoids speak the same tongue? In most fantasy settings all the 'bad guys' speak the same vile language, but I'm not so sure this is the case in FR.
As you can tell, Realms linguistics isn't one of my strong suits, unfortunately.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 15:43:13
Well, considering I haven't read BoVD, that was purely accidental.
I'll have to look into the now - thanks. 
Edit: Also, given my above comments more thought, I think that the 'Dark Speech' may have been the tongue of the Sadevari, considering they are the closest thing we have to a 'Shadow-Fiend' (AFAIK). The only other group that might work for a group of Shadowfel Denizens are the Oni, but only if you apply all the 3eOA lore to FR's Kara-Tur (that tome had MUCH Rokugon flavoring). |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 08:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I was making a reference to Tolkien's 'Black Speech', which was his generic 'evil language' for monsters.
The Dark Speech of FR seems more related to Fiendish or 'Far Realms' tongues - something mortals aren't meant to hear and damaging if they do. However, given what litlle lore we have concerning it, my guess is that its the 'primal language' of the Plane of Shadows (as Abyssal is of the Abyss, ect...), spoken by whatever 'Fiends' call the Shdowfel home.
Also, considering the Negative Plane has been rolled into the Shadowfel as well, it could be the language of 'Undeath', or some sort of disruptive 'negative-language' (like when cheesy movies play English bacwards for demonic speach). I could definately see necromantic tomes being written in the 'Dark Speech'.
Whilst I don't take to the $e version of anything, I might suggest (to those that use it) that you might use the above and combine it with the 'vile speech' in the BoVD. It seems that you've found a home for this in the Realms, Mark. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 04:17:16
Yeah, I was making a reference to Tolkien's 'Black Speech', which was his generic 'evil language' for monsters.
The Dark Speech of FR seems more related to Fiendish or 'Far Realms' tongues - something mortals aren't meant to hear and damaging if they do. However, given what little lore we have concerning it, my guess is that its the 'primal language' of the Plane of Shadows (as Abyssal is of the Abyss, ect...), spoken by whatever 'Fiends' call the Shadowfel home.
Also, considering the Negative Plane has been rolled into the Shadowfel as well, it could be the language of 'Undeath', or some sort of disruptive 'negative-language' (like when cheesy movies play English bacwards for demonic speach). I could definately see necromantic tomes being written in the 'Dark Speech'. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 00:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
Doesn't the black speech also have to do with Mask?
As far as I remember, the Black or Dark Speech is not exactly Mask's, but he teaches it to his Chosen, Riven.
When this thread started, I wondering about the same thing as you Dantrag.
Anyone got more information on the Dark Speech used in the Erevis Cale Trilogy? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 20:16:51
Polyhedron #74:quote:
Durgreos [Dur-GREE-ohzz] (“No quarrel”)—a responsive greeting and parting
Ugrukh “broken bones”: wounded, defeated, slaves or those too weak to defend themselves or to be worthy of attention [used of all creatures]
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| Dantrag |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 19:55:55
quote:
IMG, I've always had it where Goblinoids (including Orcs) spoke the 'Black Speech'
Doesn't the black speech also have to do with Mask? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Apr 2009 : 14:55:04
Ah, one of my favourites. 'Tis the "Even Orcish Is Logical" article from DRAGON #75.
Edit: Looks like Christopher beat me to it!  |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 10 Apr 2009 : 14:51:06
Oh yeah! I've got that one!
Dig dig dig, that's #75. "Even Orcish is Logical" by Clyde Heaton.
This one is well worth tracking down, actually--it's got Ed's "Ecology of the Mimic" article in it, for one thing, and also the first in his Nine Hells series.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
An old Dragon magazine had a fairly comprehensive orc language article that would work well in the Realms. Can't recall the issue number off hand ...
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Apr 2009 : 14:15:13
An old Dragon magazine had a fairly comprehensive orc language article that would work well in the Realms. Can't recall the issue number off hand ...
-- George Krashos
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| SeeDiGi |
Posted - 10 Apr 2009 : 04:45:49
Is there an Orc dictionary like there is an Elf dictionary? |
| skychrome |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 18:23:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And even though it has nothing to do with languages, in the tradition of Jamallo Kreen, I have found a photo worth using in the Realms -
Mehrangarh Fortress
That is SO going into my Realms (probably Thar), and we don't even need to change that cool name..
Thanks, both of you, for steering me to that, however indirectly. (I also find it strange that someone would suggest an Indian dialect for Druids).
Markusthay, what is even more impressive is that the city of Jodhpur, where the fort is located, is called the Blue City because citizens have to paint their houses blue every few years by law. So when you are on top of the fort's walls, you have a spectacular view over the city with its blue houses (some freshly painted, others already pretty much bleached out). I traveled Rhajastan for a month and it was fascinating, especially Jaisalmer, an amazing old desert city.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 18:07:49
Well, certainly not on-topic, but that last exchange got me to Wiki that, and now I know where we get the geographic region known as 'Thar' from (Goegraphy, NOT culture).
And even though it has nothing to do with languages, in the tradition of Jamallo Kreen, I have found a photo worth using in the Realms -
Mehrangarh Fortress
That is SO going into my Realms (probably Thar), and we don't even need to change that cool name..
Thanks, both of you, for steering me to that, however indirectly. (I also find it strange that someone would suggest an Indian dialect for Druids). |
| skychrome |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 18:40:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Because as we all know Rajasthan is world-famous for Druidism.
Ouch! Please don't smite innocent and unprepared forum readers with the +7 broadsword of irony!  
- |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:38:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
I seem to remember a Dragon article that suggested using the real-world language "Thari" as the Druidic language.
Because as we all know Rajasthan is world-famous for Druidism. I don't suppose there was a justification given for using Dhakti?
Why not use Gaulish or Brythonic instead? |
| Ateth Istarlin |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 12:13:12
I seem to remember a Dragon article that suggested using the real-world language "Thari" as the Druidic language. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 18:20:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just want to state that I never used Thief's Cant, Druid-speak, or any of the alignment languages... I always felt those were pretty stupid.
Agreed. Alignment languages are daft.
What could be one man's 'Chaos' could be another falling asleep on the keyboard. 
I'm sure Thieves Cant would vary from city to city, maybe district to district within a city. As for Druid-speak, if it were akin to Latin and written records then perhaps. However, I've always pictured druids as having an oral tradition. It depends if there is an all-encompassing Druidic organisation I suppose. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 18:14:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, do all orcs and Goblinoids speak the same tongue? In most fantasy settings all the 'bad guys' speak the same vile language, but I'm not so sure this is the case in FR.
If they can write and frequently share literature and discussion then perhaps so. However, since orcs and goblinoids aren't noted for their penmanship I would think they speak a myriad number of languages. Although perhaps derived from a common ancestor. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 15:45:43
I tend to use Common across a sliding scale of mastery among the "common" run of spoken-language using humans. I assume that most people speak it at a pidgin level, at least if they live near towns, have any dealings with outsiders at all, or are involved in trade, government, or military matters. People affiliated with continent-spanning organizations like churches speak it well, as do diplomats, merchants, travelers, and people in government at the regional level and above. For all these people, though, it's a second language, and their primary tongue is whatever their culture and history made it (in the Realms, that would be Chondathan, Netherese, Nathlan, etc), and of course there will always be a number of people who either simply never picked anything up beyond a few loaner words (isolated timbering communities, thinly-settled ranch lands, etc), or who simply refuse to speak it even if they know it (waiters, cab drivers).
Large, cosmopolitan cities like Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep, in my campaign, mirror places like Mumbai and Hong Kong, where you'll hear and see dozens of languages, the language of government and media is whatever the dominant local tongue is, but you'll always be around people who speak "the trade tongue" (British English, using these examples)
All that said, the story and the game trump my idle, community college level linguistic speculation, so characters only have trouble communicating with NPCs when it's fun (or dramatic, or scary) for them to have trouble.
Having all the members of a given race in the whole wide world (whether they're elves or ettins) is of course problematic from an anthropological point of view--does it mean that only humans are sophisticated enough to develop multiple languages or that only they're chaotic enough? But what are you gonna do, y'know? Dozens of more-or-less equally able intelligent tool (and magic!) wielding species sharing the same real estate is one of the things that we collectively don't think about too closely, at least while we're playing games and reading books and not, instead, thinking and writing about games and books, which are different hobbies altogether.
Curiously, Thieves' Cant and Druidic can be said to have actual historical antecedents, and so may make more sense than anything else about languages in the rules, though of course their antecedents can't said to be "languages" (and in fairness to the various designers over the generations, they haven't usually been presented as full-fledged tongues anyway, have they?).
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| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 08:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, I happen to like Mithgar stories a lot, despite the fact that McKiernan obviously (and admittedly) modelled it on MiddleEarth.
In his books, all the 'baddies' (which he at least re-names to things other then 'Orc' and 'Goblin') speak a common tongue (Sluk). As I have said, I much prefer that, and if I were to give 'The Black Speech' a name, I suppose I would call it 'Sluk' as well (although everyone else just calls it Orkish).
Languages are cool, and I love them from a lore point-of-view, but I grew-up on Star Trek, and I just prefer that everyone can communicate so I can get on with the story (unless a lack of communication becomes part of the storyline, in which case I would enforce it only then).
In fact, isn't it strange that in both SciFi and Fantasy characters can almost always speak the language when they get to a new world? Its just one of those 'staples' of the genre that we learn to except and just don't think about.
Agreed on all points:I've always found it odd that in FantaScifi everyone speaks 'Common' or as I call it, 'English', and have always sort of hated it as a hackneyed trope. And yet it stands tall in the game I run, mostly for the same reason that I don't use Ed's calendar- it just frustrates the players, and I have a full enough plate just dealing with running a good game.
Besides all that though, I'll be stealing the Seelie/Unseelie Princes concepts for Corellon and Gruumsh. Awesome stuff- with permission of course- for my home game. Great alternative lore, man! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 05:22:29
Also, I happen to like Mithgar stories a lot, despite the fact that McKiernan obviously (and admittedly) modelled it on MiddleEarth.
In his books, all the 'baddies' (which he at least re-names to things other then 'Orc' and 'Goblin') speak a common tongue (Sluk). As I have said, I much prefer that, and if I were to give 'The Black Speech' a name, I suppose I would call it 'Sluk' as well (although everyone else just calls it Orkish).
Languages are cool, and I love them from a lore point-of-view, but I grew-up on Star Trek, and I just prefer that everyone can communicate so I can get on with the story (unless a lack of communication becomes part of the storyline, in which case I would enforce it only then).
In fact, isn't it strange that in both SciFi and Fantasy characters can almost always speak the language when they get to a new world? Its just one of those 'staples' of the genre that we learn to except and just don't think about. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 05:09:40
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMG, I've always had it where Goblinoids (including Orcs) spoke the 'Black Speech' (a'la Tolkien)...
Hmmm. Black Speech was originally something Sauron himself devised for use by his ork minions. 'Twas to be used in place of Common Speech.
Did you follow a similar development in your Realms, Markus?
For the Record, it is mentioned that the Black Speech, while Sauron devised as a tongue common to all of his minions, never took off. The only beings that ever spoke it were the Nazgul and the Black Numenoreans (aside from Sauron himself).
It was devised mostly for Sauron's purposes in Mordor. But it was noted that the Common Tongue largely remained as the primary language among the orcs. It's supposed to have been mostly forgotten by the time after the War of the Ring.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 04:53:27
IMG, Ancient Orkish - Hulgorkyn (thanks for that, Amarel_Derakanor) - is related to ancient Elven, but so distantly removed that the two are no longer even vaguely similar. That is actually sort-of close to what Tolkien had (I just Wiki'd it).
Basically, Elves are related to Fey in the DISTANT past in my universe, and Goblinoids are related to Unseelie Fey (going back to a split between the two Ælven Princes of Faerie, Cor'Eilon and Gru-Maas). Their language would be considered 'low Fey', or 'Sylvan', by the Faerie Court, and it has changed so much since both groups departed the feywild that neither claims kinship to the other (and rather, vehemently deny it).
By the same token, Seldruin (Elven High Tongue) and 'High Drow' (used by Lolth's priestess's) are very similar, although the pronounciation has changed so dramatically over the past 11,000 years that perhaps only about 20% would be cross-undestandable (if you could even get an Elven High Mage and a Drow Priestess to speak to each other!). The written forms, however, are nearly identical, since both are used for magical writings and have been preserved intact. Both of those would be the closest to the original Sylvan (Low Fey) tongue brought over from Faerie. The version of that language spoken by indegenous fey creatures of the Realms has also greatly changed over the millenia, although it is still about 50% compatible with the extra-palaner original (and 10% understandable with both Seldruin and High Drow). Low Drow and 'common' Elven have had so mnay outside influences that neither are remotely similar to each other or anything else.
As in the case of Elves and Goblinoids, Drow and Goblinoids cannot understand each other at all because the language has changed too much, and neither would admit to any relation regardless. However, most Goblinoids speak a smattering of Undercommon (based on low Drow), so this does not present a problem, and the Orcs and their kin seem to pick it up quite easily compared to other tongues (probably do to the aformentioned common root language).
At least, that is my own take on the ancient languages of the Realms, which has its basis in my own multi-spheric proto-history.
However, since I like the 'Warcraft Orcs' (or Eberron Orcs if you prefer), I decided the Grey Orcs speak a completely different version unlike the 'Black Speech' of the Goblinoids and Green Orcs (native to Toril). Their language is much closer to Sylvan ad the original Fey tongue it split from. The 'Black Speech' is assumed to have many other influences which changed it, not the least of which is Infernal (I have only one language for Fiends as well). Grey Orcs have more Druidic traditions because of this, and the Ondonti are a prime example of this sort of 'Fey Orc'. Grey Orcs and Green Orcs can communicate, and be about 40% understandable, but both prefer to speak to each other in common - weather because neither likes the other's tongue, or because many understand common, is unknown.
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| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 04:15:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMG, I've always had it where Goblinoids (including Orcs) spoke the 'Black Speech' (a'la Tolkien)...
Hmmm. Black Speech was originally something Sauron himself devised for use by his ork minions. 'Twas to be used in place of Common Speech.
Did you follow a similar development in your Realms, Markus?
For the Record, it is mentioned that the Black Speech, while Sauron devised as a tongue common to all of his minions, never took off. The only beings that ever spoke it were the Nazgul and the Black Numenoreans (aside from Sauron himself).
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| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2009 : 01:01:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMG, I've always had it where Goblinoids (including Orcs) spoke the 'Black Speech' (a'la Tolkien)...
Hmmm. Black Speech was originally something Sauron himself devised for use by his ork minions. 'Twas to be used in place of Common Speech.
Did you follow a similar development in your Realms, Markus? |
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 21:58:57
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is there an actual name for 'Orkish' in FR?
Well, in the 'Dead Languages' section of the 3rd Edition F.R.C.S., Hulgorkyn is noted down as the 'archaic orc' tongue. Apparently, it used the Dethek aphabet. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 20:18:39
I can see the thieves cant and druid speak being used for limited code and ceremonial use, but the alignment tongue always struck me as silly.
Generally I would prefer an even more complicated language structure for the Realms, with a wider difference in human languages and dialects. The game I started with before D&D had a stronger focus on difference in human cultures and language than D&D so to me that seems natural. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 18:56:57
I thought it may have been in a novel, but I could easily be wrong - I read far more non-FR stuff then I do FR.
IMG, I've always had it where Goblinoids (including Orcs) spoke the 'Black Speech' (a'la Tolkien), and Giants spoke Giantish (which is closely related to Dwarven, and the two can understand about 50% of what the other is saying).
Then I just decide what the local Ogres, Trolls, and Ettins speak, depending on whom they associate with the most (including humans/common).
I've been doing it that way for years, since I first started running RPGs (before even Greyhawk), so I never bothered to change it with the world I was running. Individual languages may be more realistic, and I like them from an anthropological perspective, but IG it's just easier to say Goblinoids all speak local dialects of one tongue.
And since I've turned this into a general 'language thread', I just want to state that I never used Thief's Cant, Druid-speak, or any of the alignment languages... I always felt those were pretty stupid. I do use a silent version of Thief's cant based on the Drow hand-talk. As for druids, I just say they can speak Fey (which others assume is their own language). |
| scererar |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 17:36:54
I did some keyword searches through my 1E, 2E, and 3E materials for FR and core D&D and could not find anything other than "Orcish". Not saying it's not out there, but nothing from my recollection and brief searches. |
| Quale |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 16:06:28
I remember Lugroki or something like that, not sure if it's from the official sources ... |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Apr 2009 : 08:20:33
Talking Ad&d here of course. All the goblinoids have their own languages. Among the humanoids I can think of Ettins and trolls are the two major exceptions, with the Ettins being to stupid and the trolls having to much variations to form a single language.
As for names, I cant remember seeing any other term than the name of the race in question. |
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