| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 13:51:05
Reading through the Cult of the Dragon tome I came to realise that the spell Sammaster used shortly before he was killed by the avatar of Lathander has never been defined.
Needless to say, this spell would probably be very powerful (probably of epic considerations with 3e rules), and would most likely be necromatic, or, if not that, an invocation-type spell. I would however believe that such a spell would be almost impossible to duplicate, at least not without years of study first.
For those wishing for to discuss this, I refer you to pg. 19 of the afore mentioned tome for details concerning this event.
Thoughts?.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 00:22:40
Master TBeholder,
I agree with Master Krashos regarding the scroll issue. It seems plausible, but there is a dirth of information that would provide credibility to the idea.
It would be fantastic if we could get an answer from Steve Schend as a person who was somehow involved in the Netheril boxed set (said Special Thanks To), as well as Eric Boyd who was a proofreader at the time. Slade and Jim Butler did the work though, so not sure how they are reached.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it
Indeed, there are other possibilities. Including simple "it was added to the empty pages by a later owner".
quote:
If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.",
Also, not impossible.
Who tracked all these?
quote:
from The North (GEOGRAPHY / The Delzoun Region / Morueme#146;s Cave:
All Morueme dragons can speak and use magic. Their spell selection is usually exotic, taken from ancient Netherese and
Ascorian spell books in their treasure (including at least one page of the Nether Scrolls).
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 07:09:53
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it
Indeed, there are other possibilities. Including simple "it was added to the empty pages by a later owner".
quote:
If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.",
Also, not impossible.
Who tracked all these?
quote:
from The North (GEOGRAPHY / The Delzoun Region / Morueme#146;s Cave:
All Morueme dragons can speak and use magic. Their spell selection is usually exotic, taken from ancient Netherese and
Ascorian spell books in their treasure (including at least one page of the Nether Scrolls).
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 21:02:03
Hello all,
I was just going through my subscriptions to keep or unsubscribe from certain ones, and this one was very interesting to me.
Bumping to see if anyone ever did find anything else out about what that spell was, that Sammaster though to challenge the Morninglord with?
Best regards,
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 17:39:08
Master Krashos,
Did anyone ever find out the answer to this? I looked and couldn't find anything either.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it as all I have is a few disparate timeline/realmslore references which point to the above, nothing definite. If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.", which doesn't really add much to the thread. Cheers.
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 06:49:00
I don't know if it's a case of no-one biting, it's just that any comment either in agreement or disagreement is simply words - there is no "proof" one way or the other as the source material is so scanty. It's like me postulating that Laeral spent at least one year in Myth Drannor before its fall (through the time conduit spell or one of the time portals) because her spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" is in the spellbook known as The Wizards Workbook which contained spells from the apprentices of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. This supposition "seems" right, but I can't "prove" it as all I have is a few disparate timeline/realmslore references which point to the above, nothing definite. If you want Sammaster to have had access to one of the Nether Scrolls then all well and good (and I personally like the idea on a cursory, intitial thought basis) but it's difficult for the rest of us to say anthing other than, "I think that's a good/bad/so-so idea.", which doesn't really add much to the thread. Cheers.
-- George Krashos
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| Nephilim |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 20:39:02
well it looks like no-one is biting. I still think Sammasters scroll was one of the Nether Scrolls (see my earlier post). |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 17:59:16
Well met!
So then ,where is Harrowsmouth, aka the Gate of Hell, where Sammaster the Lich fell in battle agianst the Harpers and the Twelve?
Somewhere in the SE Anauroch to be sure, but is there anything more specific?
Hygelac's kinsman |
| Kuje |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 04:19:33
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, I don't seem to possess that tome, which is why I asked all these sages here.
:) Scroll down after clicking the link, its one of the freebies.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 03:23:27
Well, I don't seem to possess that tome, which is why I asked all these sages here. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 03:07:11
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Can someone give me some detailed information about Sammaster's demise and the events that led up to the confrontatino between him and the Morninglord's avatar? All I know is that several Harpers and some Lathandite priests ambushed Sammaster's entourage and then the avatar of Lathander was just injured before killing Sammaster.
The tale is told, in full, in the 2nd edition source The Cult of the Dragon. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 01:10:52
Can someone give me some detailed information about Sammaster's demise and the events that led up to the confrontatino between him and the Morninglord's avatar? All I know is that several Harpers and some Lathandite priests ambushed Sammaster's entourage and then the avatar of Lathander was just injured before killing Sammaster. |
| Sebastrd |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 00:36:54
quote:
Originally posted by Malanthius
Then, with a tremendous effort,
he reached up and sideways with his left hand to elsewhere
and drew back a single thin sheet of metal glinting with a
faint, silvery sheen. Strange symbols and glyphs crawled
across its surface.
Sammaster held it up before him, as if to force Lathander
to read it. Fool! Lathanaer thundered, and Dawnspeaker
came down resoundingly through the metallic
scroll and into Sammaster, whose body twisted in the aftershock
of the blow and then, miraculously, started to
straighten. The scroll shattered in all directions into a million
slivers of light, but one small, dagger-shaped piece
stuck in the golden plate armor above Lathanderės heart,
scratching his chest, and four drops of his blood fell to the
ground at his feet.
My theory on the metal scroll is that it's somehow tied to the prophecy. It's very possible that the shattering of the scroll and Lathander's subsequent loss of blood could be part of the prophecy's fulfillment. |
| Nephilim |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 17:27:15
Page 8, Netheril: Encyclopaedia Arcana. "What is known about the nether scrolls is that they appeared as sheets of gold and platinum. They were covered with magical runes and sigils that shimmered upon their surface'
I suggest that the metal sheet Sammaster bradished at Lathander was one of the nether scrolls (although how he came by it is another question). The scrolls were immune to damage from magic and would reform if damaged by mundane means, perhaps it would require a god's actions to destroy one of the scrolls. If Sammaster cast a contingency spell on the scroll, specifying that the scrolls magic would be released if the scroll was destroyed. Then he waves it threateningly at Lathander...
Of course, we still don't know what the magic on the scroll actually did... |
| chosenofvelsharoon |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:57:46
lets rekindle and old topic...
It sounds to me much like a spell engine,
and i think there was mention of chain contigency spells in the cult of the dragon source book. this is how sammaster finished becomming a lich instead of dying, along with teleporting some of his ashes for his new body to eat.
The many spells to contigency, quicken, protect from scrying, teleport, etc. probably needed more energy/ spell levels than sammaster had available. the disk probably was collecting power not to be used against lathander.
and as for being not so bright, he was insane and he was still around when he had to fight the company of 12. sounds like he knew how to survive, even against a god. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:10:25
quote:
Originally posted by the Sage
...although I didn't get that much from All Things Magical...
Really? I thought the Artifacts section was rife with good plot threads. Each history and the various desrciptions of its powers and ways of destruction seemed to have a few good loose threads for a DM to make adventures out of. But, to each his own. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 13:47:42
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Honestly, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of my favorite hoem brewed adventures came off the plot threads left open in the hunred or so Realms products published in Second Edition. It is one of those very large differences between Second and Third Edition is that in Second Edition left open plot thread and much fo the information left you with that might be innaccurate felling (you got that fromt eh Volo's Guides a lot). Now, the sourcebooks tend to be so cut and dry, even the fluff gets a crunch at times.
You are very right...Nearly every piece of 2e Realmslore that I expanded upon had it's source from plot threads that I read about (and expanded upon) from the various Volo's Guide, although I didn't get that much from All Things Magical...
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| Crust |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 16:49:36
I couldn't finish Sorcerer.  |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 00:06:15
Honestly, I don't know about the rest of you, but some of my favorite hoem brewed adventures came off the plot threads left open in the hunred or so Realms products published in Second Edition. It is one of those very large differences between Second and Third Edition is that in Second Edition left open plot thread and much fo the information left you with that might be innaccurate felling (you got that fromt eh Volo's Guides a lot). Now, the sourcebooks tend to be so cut and dry, even the fluff gets a crunch at times. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 03:06:47
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
True I do see a trend their Sage, but it never bugged me much before. On Sammaster, that fact they never made him factually dead left open a very enticing plot thread, especially since he is the rogue Chosen, which leaves many possibilities open. Making good and open plot threads were something they were better at back in Second Edition.
I agree with you on that. I've very rarely seen any decent open plot threads which really delve into the history of the Realms and provide an interesting opening for players and DMs to exploit for their own games. Sammaster was one very original plot piece.
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| Shadowlord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:50:24
Well, Malanthius (IIRC) made a description to the spell, but I am still curious as to what the thin sheet of metal with arcane glyphs is. Perhaps if any scribe would care to make a description/powers for this item, I would be thankful. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 21:32:26
True I do see a trend their Sage, but it never bugged me much before. On Sammaster, that fact they never made him factually dead left open a very enticing plot thread, especially since he is the rogue Chosen, which leaves many possibilities open. Making good and open plot threads were something they were better at back in Second Edition. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 06:11:21
Actually, now that I come to think of it, Denning's style (in regards to RotAW) seems to be a recurring trend throughout much of his published works, even outside of the various FR novels he has authored.
Either way, I think we should probably halt, or at least transfer the discussion of Denning and the RotAW trilogy to a more appropriate forum, before Alaundo and his Staff pay all of us a rather unforgettable visit... 
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| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 03:56:53
I wish I could see it so positively. As I have stated int he past, I found the Return of the Archwizards one of the poorer written trilogies of Realms novels. Mainly my problem was, firstly, that Denning set up such a powerful foe that when it came to defeating them he totally wrecked it. It was the ultimate literary deus ex machina, making an impossible enemy and then wining by swallowing Khelben and some other Chosen. All I could do was say wow and toss the book as far away as possible. Secondly, I think Denning was a bit overzealous with the causing destruction, well, everywhere. Destroy Evereska, destroy Cormyr (again), destroy Waterdeep...it just went on and on, and in the end they barely hurt Shade. A bit much if you ask me. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 01:39:19
I can agree with your reasonings on RotAW Crust. At times, the battles did seem a little too underbalanced, or overbalanced as the case may be...
But then there was a reason for that, the return of an ancient threat could not have been a 'lite' affair for the Realms, and Denning obviously decided the need for crucial aspects to create the atmosphere of near-dread that he was hoping for.
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| Crust |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 18:50:23
I actually just re-read that scene a couple days ago.
I agree with Swordsage that the spell resembles a Spell Engine (which I think is in Magic of Faerun). That Sammaster's Final Sin spell really seems like a solid representation.
(Boy, creating epic spells is really hard for me. They always end up seeming either underpowered, overpowered, or something that doesn't seem worth the time to create in the first place. I have to really practice that.)
As for the scroll, that reminded me of some artifact that might be able to allow the user to ursurp control over beings of an extraplanar origin, or even of divine might.
Either way, that confrontation is the stuff I love about the Realms. Those encounters really make the Realms shine. It reminded me of the epic spell duels in the various Elminster books (or other novels by Greenwood). It's more of what I wished would happen in The Return of the Arch Wizards trilogy. I saw too many phaerimms throwing fireballs and lightning bolts. The war was like a "trading of blows" when it should have consisted of elven high mages and Khelben engaging in exactly the kind of exchange seen between Sammaster and Lathandar. |
| Cyric |
Posted - 07 Jan 2004 : 12:51:54
To bad he did not mangage to kill Lathander...he was a cool guy and that book about that cult was a bit cool |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 20:47:19
since Mystra changed magic so that no spells such as this could ever be cast again, i assume Sammaster would have 2 do this be4 Mystra made this change. does any1 know the year sammaster cast this spell?
i know the whole thing with mystra changing magic after karsus attemped 2 cast the spell that would steal the power of Mystryl. but she sacrificed herself 2 stop karsus and thats how mystra was created as a new diety and then she changed the laws of magic. in what years did these events happen? |
| Dragon Cultist |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 00:39:45
Never assume that your enemy is destroyed until you see his corpse.
And even then, you can't be entirely certain.
Or, to put it this way: if the First-Speaker was indeed not so intelligent or wise, how come his phylactery (when he was in his lich stage) has never been found and destroyed?
Did you really think a former Chosen of Mystra could so easily be put out of the running- permanently? |
| Nakil Delquion |
Posted - 13 Aug 2003 : 23:09:57
Its not that he was not so bright, its that he was not so wise!
All mages have their faults, even the Chosen, even the Magister. |
| Malanthius |
Posted - 08 Aug 2003 : 21:24:28
Sammaster was a former chosen. That's it. He was apprenticed to elminster for a while after being selected by mystra herself, accidentally blew up a caravan while trying to save it from mauraders, slept with alustriel, met a banite priest, went insane, founded the cult of the dragon, then tried to kill an avatar of lathander. Hmmm. Is it just me or for a guy that's supposed to have 18 plus intelligence, does this guy seem not so bright?
Mal. |
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