| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Malaugryn |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 11:25:37
Could someone tell me who is Mentor Wintercloak and how can he be alive for so long? He is only around 20 years younger than Elminster, still around 1374 he is still alive. Is he a chosen of a god?
Could you please tell me too who is the Masked?
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ether. |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 22:47:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric Boyd did a 3E write-up for the item that didn't survive editing.
Are casualaties of the editor protected by NDA? There have been numerous posts by you folks indicating that something didn't survive the editor's knife, but that I'd personally love to read. Could you folks release that stuff or is it protected by NDA?
It's not mine to release, it's Eric's. And I'm not sure I'd describe the situation as one where a NDA applies.
Eric always had a quasi-policy of not releasing stuff into the public domain as he hoped to re-cycle and re-use it for other products/articles.
With his publishing track record, that made a lot of sense at the time. Now, that may not be the case, but as al2ways that's Eric's call, not mine.
-- George Krashos
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| Ifthir |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 19:03:53
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric Boyd did a 3E write-up for the item that didn't survive editing.
Are casualaties of the editor protected by NDA? There have been numerous posts by you folks indicating that something didn't survive the editor's knife, but that I'd personally love to read. Could you folks release that stuff or is it protected by NDA? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 10:53:12
Back on topic, after the death of Llombaeth, Elminster had and likely wore Andrathath's Mask but then as recounted in the 'Cormanthyr' sourcebook obviously gave it away as its wearer, the Masked of the Seven Wizards, is known to be an "unknown female".
We know that the Masked quit Myth Drannor ere its fall and may have travelled to Silverymoon for it is noted in the write-up of Orjalun's Arbatel in 'Pages From the Mages' that he tutored Orjalun.
The current wearer of Andrathath's Mask is Marune of the Shadow Thieves as per 'Waterdeep: City of Splendors'. How he got it is unknown.
Eric Boyd did a 3E write-up for the item that didn't survive editing.
-- George Krashos
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| Faraer |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 19:23:52
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'd have to disagree, I don't think they were omitted because they couldn't be 'measured and balanced', but because it didn't outright affect anything.
The narrow, inhuman point of view in which living longer isn't an outright effect is precisely that of 3E combat/gp accounting.quote:
Since most gamers don't pay much attention to the aging rules, they never saw a need for the potions in the Magic Items list.
I don't believe most players lack the minimal engagement with characters and world to care about how their characters age. The inclusions, omissions and changes in the 3E rules were a deliberate design direction.quote:
It also removes the 1% chance of backfire.
I think absolutely reliable, predictable magic for something like this is much less interesting, and less consonant with what we know about rare Art in Faerûn.quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
A little off topic, but I keep hearing about how Volo's Guide to All Things Magical was suppressed. I'm probably not old enough to know anything about it, so what was the deal with that?
The in-Realms book was, not the our-world book published by TSR. It's explained in VGATM itself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 19:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
A little off topic, but I keep hearing about how Volo's Guide to All Things Magical was suppressed. I'm probably not old enough to know anything about it, so what was the deal with that?
It's a joke. In the earlier Volo's Guides, there are occasional references to him having penned Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, and it then being suppressed by various wizards of the Realms. It was later heavily revised, with help from Elminster, and then released. It amuses me to constantly point out its former status.  |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 18:41:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'd have to disagree, I don't think they were omitted because they couldn't be 'measured and balanced', but because it didn't outright affect anything.
I'd rule that a Potion of Longevity would simply be a potion that extends one's 'Maximum age' by d% years and delays the milestones of the physical (not mental) aging effects by that same roll. Since most gamers don't pay much attention to the aging rules, they never saw a need for the potions in the Magic Items list.
This also makes it much more powerful than the 2E 'remove 1d12 years' version, and shows why it is inherently more rare. It also removes the 1% chance of backfire. Considering that Mirt and Durnan have taken (and stored) such potions so they appear around 50 for the last 100 years or so, it means they've taken around 15 potions each to remain so.
Unless the potions they drank were more powerful... Or they could have drank a larger number of elixirs of youth. Those peeled back 1d4+1 years, but didn't have the backfire potential.
I'm inclined to think that there are a lot of other methods of reversing age and/or staving off old age. A carefully-worded wish, for example. There could be various methods of transferring age to something (or someone) else, a la Dorian Gray. It could go the other way, with someone's life force being siphoned off to either postpone aging or roll back the prospect -- kinda like Ioulaum's Longevity. And given the potion lore we see in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work  ), I think it likely there are other age-defying potions around. Perhaps one of them simply prevents the imbiber from aging for a period of time...
Also, given how often wizards exceed the normal mortal span, I think there are prolly some rituals or procedures they can exercise to halt the aging process. While it could be as simple as a potion, I think it possible that there's also some arcane ritual that does the same thing, and requires the skills of a seriously powerful wizard (20+) to pull off.
A little off topic, but I keep hearing about how Volo's Guide to All Things Magical was suppressed. I'm probably not old enough to know anything about it, so what was the deal with that? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 18:10:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'd have to disagree, I don't think they were omitted because they couldn't be 'measured and balanced', but because it didn't outright affect anything.
I'd rule that a Potion of Longevity would simply be a potion that extends one's 'Maximum age' by d% years and delays the milestones of the physical (not mental) aging effects by that same roll. Since most gamers don't pay much attention to the aging rules, they never saw a need for the potions in the Magic Items list.
This also makes it much more powerful than the 2E 'remove 1d12 years' version, and shows why it is inherently more rare. It also removes the 1% chance of backfire. Considering that Mirt and Durnan have taken (and stored) such potions so they appear around 50 for the last 100 years or so, it means they've taken around 15 potions each to remain so.
Unless the potions they drank were more powerful... Or they could have drank a larger number of elixirs of youth. Those peeled back 1d4+1 years, but didn't have the backfire potential.
I'm inclined to think that there are a lot of other methods of reversing age and/or staving off old age. A carefully-worded wish, for example. There could be various methods of transferring age to something (or someone) else, a la Dorian Gray. It could go the other way, with someone's life force being siphoned off to either postpone aging or roll back the prospect -- kinda like Ioulaum's Longevity. And given the potion lore we see in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work ), I think it likely there are other age-defying potions around. Perhaps one of them simply prevents the imbiber from aging for a period of time...
Also, given how often wizards exceed the normal mortal span, I think there are prolly some rituals or procedures they can exercise to halt the aging process. While it could be as simple as a potion, I think it possible that there's also some arcane ritual that does the same thing, and requires the skills of a seriously powerful wizard (20+) to pull off. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 17:45:00
I'd have to disagree, I don't think they were omitted because they couldn't be 'measured and balanced', but because it didn't outright affect anything.
I'd rule that a Potion of Longevity would simply be a potion that extends one's 'Maximum age' by d% years and delays the milestones of the physical (not mental) aging effects by that same roll. Since most gamers don't pay much attention to the aging rules, they never saw a need for the potions in the Magic Items list.
This also makes it much more powerful than the 2E 'remove 1d12 years' version, and shows why it is inherently more rare. It also removes the 1% chance of backfire. Considering that Mirt and Durnan have taken (and stored) such potions so they appear around 50 for the last 100 years or so, it means they've taken around 15 potions each to remain so. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 05:53:44
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Not for their frequency, but they have rules in 1E and 2E: they were omitted from 3E because, not affecting combat, they couldn't be measured and 'balanced' by that system's measure.
-I should amend that to say "In any 3e books". |
| Faraer |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 00:12:28
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Where does one find potions of longevity? It seems like there would be quite a few people running around who are hundreds or thousands of years old if they were so easy to find.
They can be found in treasure caches, bought for high coin, or made by mages who know the secrets. Ed, from June 2007:quote:
I'd say potions of longevity, elixirs of youth, and similar magical means of extending normal lifespan would be rare, highly-sought-after treasures. Real ones are likely to be well guarded ("in depth," including false potions [probably poisons] nearby for would-be thieves to be led to, instead), and NEVER offered for sale in shops (alchemists and powerful wizards may peddle a single potion, discreetly, to a wealthy buyer approached on a one-to-one basis, usually passing off the potion as "discovered among the treasures of Archwizard X after his unfortunate demise at the hands of Y").
That does not mean longevity magic is unknown to the very wealthy, who often hire wizards to help them cheat death, or among powerful mages who try to devise their own life-extending or -renewing magics. You are right in supposing that at a certain power level its pursuit (and the results, however efficacious or otherwise) becomes common.
Wooly and Jamallo both pointed out the limitations and drawbacks I would certainly apply as a DM. I would also side with Wooly in not going the "make it a feat" route, because I'm a roleplaying DM: I think this quest for immortality or at least vigor should be a process played out over time, NOT something one could ever find an instructor for, or "take" upon level advancement. I would handle it with subtle variances in body chemistry, so a would-be instructor would have to say: "What works for you may not work for me, and be warned: experiments that don't work AGE you, so if a night of tinkering and gulping might bring you tottering to the edge of your grave!"
In general, in the Realms, I have always run things like this: very few individuals know how to make these magics, and like those who had to discover how for themselves, they jealously keep this secret for themselves, sharing the potions only with those they fall in love with and want to have as companions "forever." Everyone else has to discover the process anew for themselves, either by finding it written down in an ancient tomb or cache (warning: there are plenty of "wrong" formulae out there!), or by finding the potions as treasure. Such potions were once far more common than they are today (someone in the failing days of Netheril was making and selling lots of them), because magic was once more widespread and better understood than it is now. People have been drinking them, but there are still a lot of them out there, hidden in dungeons not yet fully plundered.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Those, elixirs of youth (a less-effective means of reversing age, without the potential backfire), and other, so far undetailed methods of avoiding aging are rare.
For reference, the backfire potential is that 'each time one is drunk there is a 1% cumulative chance that it will have the effect of reversing all age removal from previously consumed longevity potions'. Drawbacks like that inspire wizards to try to create their own longevity processes -- see the discussion of elixirs in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
They aren't in any rules or anything like that that I am aware of.
Not for their frequency, but they have rules in 1E and 2E: they were omitted from 3E because, not affecting combat, they couldn't be measured and 'balanced' by that system's measure. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 23:38:05
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Where does one find potions of longevity? It seems like there would be quite a few people running around who are hundreds or thousands of years old if they were so easy to find.
Well, Ed and THO have confirmed that both Mirt and Durnan have used longevity potions. As has Filfaeril, and dozens more NPCs in the Realms.
From March '04 --
"I think Mirt and Durnan are both a trifle OLDER than 120. Still unpublished is the “essential Realmslore” short story in which they acquired as treasure certain drinkables that might be expressed in AD&D terms (the D&D game came along after I wrote the story) as slightly-variant Potions of Longevity. So, yes, they appear to be rather leathery/fat/worn-but-vigorous 50-ish males. The way the published Realms has turned out, the careers of Mirt and Durnan have been sadly neglected, but you will see their present-day selves adventuring together in my tale in the forthcoming Realms of Dragons anthology (end of 2004, I believe)."
...
Additionally, we have this other little bit from what Ed said back in May '05 -
"Thanks for reminding everyone, kuje31: yes, there’s still longevity magic in the Realms. Rules changes don’t alter established lore. Even if your PCs can’t find or get potions of longevity, or you as players can’t find them in the rulebooks, it doesn’t mean NPCs in the established Realms (such as Mirt, Durnan, Filfaeril, and dozens more) didn’t find and imbibe (or even store, for future use) them in the past.
Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)."
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 22:25:52
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Where does one find potions of longevity? It seems like there would be quite a few people running around who are hundreds or thousands of years old if they were so easy to find.
-Where ever you want. As Wooly Rupert said, the means of actually making them are rare. They are an author/designer fiat type of thing that exist that allows for random individuals to live lives much longer than what they would normally be allowed to. They aren't in any rules or anything like that that I am aware of. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:46:17
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Where does one find potions of longevity? It seems like there would be quite a few people running around who are hundreds or thousands of years old if they were so easy to find.
Those, elixirs of youth (a less-effective means of reversing age, without the potential backfire), and other, so far undetailed methods of avoiding aging are rare. It's not really been gone into very much, but I'd assume that such potions can be made by powerful wizards, and that they're the only ones with the knowledge and power to do so. |
| Ifthir |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:40:01
quote:
Originally posted by Malaugryn
Could you please tell me too who is the Masked?
Llombaerth Starym. I believe it is from Elminster in Myth Drannor. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:14:42
Where does one find potions of longevity? It seems like there would be quite a few people running around who are hundreds or thousands of years old if they were so easy to find. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:04:12
-Potions of Longevity. Bam. Anyone can live well past how long they are supposed to now. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 20:03:30
Mentor does appear in Elminster in Myth Drannor. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 19:43:37
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Helm
And weren't one or both of them mentioned in Ed's novel ELMINSTER IN MYTH DRANNOR? Or am I misremembering, and it's in Steven's CORMANTHOR or HOW THE MIGHTY ARE FALLEN (hope I've recalled the title rightly), instead?
It's Cormanthyr, and The Fall of Myth Drannor. How the Mighty Are Fallen was a module that added to the Netheril boxed set. And they're all available for free from the Wizards downloads page. 
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| Broken Helm |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 19:01:01
And weren't one or both of them mentioned in Ed's novel ELMINSTER IN MYTH DRANNOR? Or am I misremembering, and it's in Steven's CORMANTHOR or HOW THE MIGHTY ARE FALLEN (hope I've recalled the title rightly), instead?
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 18:32:44
Mentor makes a memorable appearance in Blackstaff, btw. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 16:53:05
From what I've gathered, Mentor was one of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor and instructed Khelben in the ways of magic. Look for Wooly's post on Khelben's timeline in this thread.
There's a brief blurb from Ed (via Steven) in the Lore from the Sages - 2006 section on the main site. May want to query Ed or Steven directly in their threads for more information. |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 16:32:12
I'm thinking this is one of those questions best asked of Ed, on his thread. (Though George Krashos, Steven Schend, and Eric Boyd culd all contribute something useful by way of an answer, too.) I know Mentor AND the Masked are Ed creations. |
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