| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bhaldackein |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 09:11:10
Hello again, learned Sages of Realmslore. After my questions about Impiltur that were so eloquently answered by Mr. George Krashos, I will post some other questions that have been bothering me.
Recently I decided to brush up on the Tuigans. I started by again reading ‘Horselords’, the first novel in the Empires Trilogy, and the novel immediately left me with some serious problems considering Yamun Khahan's offspring.
Here’s what I thought I knew: Yamun had 2 sons: Hubadai and Jadaran. I remembered Hubadai most. After the death of his father he founded Yaïmunnahar, according to 'The Horde – Barbarians of the Endless Waste’ in Dragon #349. That same article states that Hubadai is Yamun’s eldest son. Jadaran is Yamun’s second son. He became governor of Semphar, and I always assumed he still is.
I had completely forgotten about Tomke. According to ‘Horselords’, he camped all winter on the 'Yellow Grass Steppe', wherever that may be. I was unable to find any reference to a ‘Yellow Grass Steppe’ in any Forgotten Realms source or on any map. I assume it is the Tuigan name for the Horse Plains, since the novel also mentions Tomke hoped to move east toward the Tsu-Tsu. ‘Horselords’ clearly states that Tomke is Yamun’s third son: “Other couriers carried dispatches from Prince Tomke. The khahan's third son was marching with his army to join Yamun.”
Hubadai is Yamun’s eldest son. Okay… The Khahan tells Koja of the Kazari that the ‘First Empress’, assumingly Yamun’s first wife, “… Died bearing Hubadai, many winters ago."
Right… So we must assume that Eke (‘Mother’) Bayalun, Yamun’s stepmother, who became Yamun’s ‘Second Empress’ after the death of his father, is the mother of Jadaran and Tomke. If Hubadai’s mother died after giving birth, Eke Bayalun has to be the mother of his two other sons. Let me hasten to add that ‘Horselords’ makes no mention of this whatsoever.
But is Hubadai the late Khahan’s eldest son? The curious phrase "And what of my youngest son, Hubadai? Has he heard from the caliph of Semphar?" a question Yamun asks General Chanar in ‘Horselords’, seems to suggest Hubadai is Yamun’s youngest son.
For the sake of argument, let’s make Hubadai the youngest son. This immediately presents another problem. There are 3 sons. Jadaran is clearly the second son, Tomke clearly the third. Than it follows that Hubadai, the youngest, is the fourth son. Then who in the name of Mystra’s magical pinkie is Yamun’s first son?
Let me phrase my questions more clearly:
- Is Hubadai is Yamun’s eldest or youngest son?
- Is there another son not mentioned in any sourcebook or novel? He must be Yamun’s eldest son if we assume Hubadai is the youngest.
- If we assume that Hubadai is the eldest son, can we agree that Eke Bayalun must be the mother of Jadaran and Tomke?
And last but not least:
- Whatever became of Tomke? He seems to totally vanish into thin air after ‘Horselords’. Hubadai and Jadaran are also mentioned in ‘Horde Campaign’ (FR 12), Tomke isn’t.
I hope there will be some answers to my queries. |
| 4 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 17:45:51
quote:
Originally posted by Bhaldackein
And while I'm at it: The Horde Boxed Set reveals that in the past "The Shou warriors seized the lands from the Koryaz Mountains to the Rusj river, and the mountains of Khazari." Every timeline on the internet repeats this, but... Where IS this Rusj River? It's not in the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, so I could use some help here.
-As these seem to be points to demonstrate geographic location, I'd postulate that it is a river that runs through the A-Ling Shan Mountains, parallel to the Old Trade Road, just north of Tabot. |
| Ikki |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 00:14:44
personally ive rewritten the shou lung part of the horselords story. They did utterly conquer and lay waste to shou lung.. a good 2/3 of the population massacred and farms laid waste (to provide grazing ground.. nomads like such), also cities were largely destroyed save a few central ones.
With forcibly recruited slavetroops of the shou, the horselords are set towards conquering the southern tu-lung aswell. Much slower, as while the armies are weaker.. the many years of discord and underhand tactics alog with fell magics has done much to protect againt any single tactic.
Still the numerical superiority from the enslaved shou bears on.
Eventually, the land will be united once more, but under tuigan rulership.. Perhaps there will even be rebuilding and wholly new traderoutes linking the east with teh west now that there are no menacing tuigan in between.
One day this all may be toppled however by a -Lungian pesant revolt.. |
| Bhaldackein |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 09:02:48
Thank you for your reply, Markustay! It seems that Yamun and his family are a bit beyond the boundaries of interest of most sages...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
About Bayalun and the 'First Empress'. IIRC, Yamun had several wives and concubines - just because Hubadai's mother was the 'first Empress' doesn't necessarilly mean that Hubadai was the first-born.
True enough, of course. In fact, Yamun Khahan himself was the eldest son, but of Burekai's second wife and originally not destined to become the next Khan.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for this unknown, missing 'Firstborn', I think I may spin it where he was taken by the 'Snow Demons' (read Frostfell). It seems the Snow Demons (really Frostmen and their demonic masters) had a penchant for stealing children all over the Steppes, and it would be an interesting historic footnote if Yamun's son was one of those taken. Nothing at all canon that points to that, other then a missing son in an area known for missing children.Ergo, Hubadai may have been the 'First Son' figuratively, being the inheritor, while actually being the third - or fourth - son chronologically.
Nice angle! Gonna use that in my campaign notes! With your permission, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Good catch, BTW, on that lore - I will be adding the Yellow Grass Steppe to the newest iteration of the Hordelands map, as per your deduction.
Thank you! But there are more locations in 'Horselords' that present problems. 'Big Hat Mountain' and 'Mount Bogdo', for instance, and 'Bitter Well', all locations where the Tuigans fought battles.
And while I'm at it: The Horde Boxed Set reveals that in the past "The Shou warriors seized the lands from the Koryaz Mountains to the Rusj river, and the mountains of Khazari." Every timeline on the internet repeats this, but... Where IS this Rusj River? It's not in the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, so I could use some help here.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm also glad you found poor little Tomke... I would have been embarrassed about not including him in my homebrew Horde Material. I'm going to spin him as the current leader of the eastern Taangan - the Fankiang, who are not exactly of the same racial stock as the Tuigan (albeit close). The Fankiang people would be all those tribes to the east of the Kora Shan (Swordrise) Mountains, including the Tsu-tsu (like the Tuigan, I'm picturing a tribe with the name Fankiang, and then a broader racial group that includes other tribes that have broken away from the main one over countless centuries).
Thank you again. Was kinda' glad myself I rediscovered Tomke. I like your idea to make him ruler over the tribes east of the Kora Shan.quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Should be easy for me to spin it that way, given the number of wives Yamun Kahan had. If Tomke had a Fankiang mother, he could have stayed east of the mountains and set-up a kingdom of his own - a more traditional one in opposition to his brother's 'new-fangled' ideas. Since I have it where the Fankiang consider themselves the 'purer' race (they are one of the purest groups of Lung - Kara-Tur aboriginies - that exists today), I could even make Tomke the child of one of those Princesses that the Emperor of Shou Lung gave to Yamun.
Hmmm, I don't know about Tomke having a Fankiang mother... Although they may be a logical choice, the Fankiang and Khaghun being the only two eastern (as in east of the Kora Shan) tribes that speak an Eastern Imaskari dialect, dialogue in 'Horselords' makes it clear Yamun knew next to nothing about the Fankiang and the other tribes. Tomke, again according to 'Horselords', even considered them very bad soldiers ('dogs' is the word he seems to have used for the eastern tribes).
A more logical choice, in my humble opinion, would be a possible Khaghun or Tsu-tsu mother. Eke Bayalun supported a Tsu-tsu religious teacher in her entourage. Tomke was sure the Tsu-tsu would subdue to the Tuigan without a fight.quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm going to go through FR12 - The Horde Campaign - which is an oft-forgotten resource for miniatures use in a Horde-based campaign. There a couple of things that can be found there that I found nowhere else, and perhaps I can locate our elusive Tomke in the army rosters.
Good idea, but I can spare you the trouble: Tomke isn't mentioned by 'Horde Campaign', alas.
Oh, and lest I forget: good luck fighting those dire raccoons... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 18:53:38
Unfortunately, despite my constant research on that region... I can't find my copy of Horselords. After reading all of this, I may have to venture into "the attic of doom" and try to locate it.
It will mean battling the army of mighty dire raccoons that dwell therein, but verily, tis a task worthy of the risk. 
Seriously, I've re-read the other two a couple of times recently, gleening lore from them, but I guess I really need that one. 
About Bayalan and the 'First Empress'. IIRC, Yamun had several wives and concubines - just because Hubadai's mother was the 'first Empress' doesn't necessarilly mean that Hubadai was the first-born. Yamun may have had the other sons with concubines first, but Hubadai became the 'official inheritor', being the son of Yamun's wife (or at least, first wife).
Ergo, Hubadai may have been the 'First Son' figuritively, being the inheritor, while actually being the third - or fourth - son chronologically.
AS for this unknown, missing 'Firstborn', I think I may spin it where he was taken by the 'Snow Demons' (read Frostfell). It seems the Snow Demons (really Frostmen and their demonic masters) had a penchant for stealing children all over the Steppes, and it would be an interesting historic footnote if Yamun's son was one of those taken. Nothing at all canon that points to that, other then a missing son in an area known for missing children.
Good catch, BTW, on that lore - I will be adding the Yellow Grass Steppe to the newest iteration of the Hordelands map, as per your deduction. I'm also glad you found poor little Tomke... I would have been embarrassed about not including him in my homebrew Horde Material. I'm going to spin him as the current leader of the eastern Taangan - the Fankiang, who are not exactly of the same racial stock as the Tuigan (albeit close). The Fankiang people would be all those tribes to the east of the Kora Shan (Swordrise) Mountains, including the Tsu-tsu (like the Tuigan, I'm picturing a tribe with the name Fankiang, and then a broader racial group that includes other tribes that have broken away from the main one over countless centuries).
Should be easy for me to spin it that way, given the number of wives Yamun Kahan had. If Tomke had a Fankiang mother, he could have stayed east of the mountains and set-up a kingdom of his own - a more traditional one in opposition to his brother's 'new-fangled' ideas. Since I have it where the Fankiang consider themselves the 'purer' race (they are one of the purest groups of Lung - Kara-Tur aboriginies - that exists today), I could even make Tomke the child of one of those Princesses that the Emperor of Shou Lung gave to Yamun.
None of that is official mind you - its meant more as a 'patch' the the official lore.
I'm going to go through FR12 - The Horde Campaign - which is an oft-forgotten resource for miniatures use in a Horde-based campaign. There a couple of things that can be found there that I found nowhere else, and perhaps I can locate our elusive Tomke in the army rosters. |
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