| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 03:41:03
In the Horde box set there is a card with 3 alphabets on it. Tuigan, Ra-khati and Semphari.
None of them look very much alike, although the Ra-Khati and Tuigan characters look like one could have conceivably been derived from the other, yet they are so different, that if they are related then it would appear that one or both have diverged greatly from each other over a long period of time.
We are told that Tuigan, descendant of a Southern Imaskari dialect, is closer to ancient Imaskari than other Imaskari daughter tongues.
So I am wondering, does it say anywhere that the Tuigan alphabet in the Horde box-set is actually the Imaskari alphabet? What about the Semphari and Ra-Khati scripts? Are any of them the actual Imaskari alphabet? If not, are any of them related to Imaskari writing? And if so, how? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 21:42:43
I am of the opinion that the Tuigan tongue is derived from Imaskari with Lung elements (the original racial group of K-T), while Ra-Khati would have been derived from the Shou language, which was brought over by the Shou interlopers when they came to Toril. The Shou language would have become mixed with Imaskari (derived from Muhjari, which is then derived from Zakharan, as is the Bedine and Calimshan tongues), and this 'bastardized' version of the original Shou would have been prevalent in Anok-Imaskar. Later versions of the Shou language would be called Kao te Shou, having absorbed quite a few words from the original Lung tongue from Kao Shan. This language still survives today in the Plain of Horses and Chukei, and the dialect is called Chukian (Ronin Challenge), and would be closely related to the language spoken by the Tuigan.
As for Semphar, it would be Imasjkari with large doses of Mulan, after the Mulhorandi revolted and later took Semphar - once an integral province of Imaskar - over as a a subject-state.
Ergo, all three tongues are derived from Roushoum, with different influences from native (and Interloper) cultures, which could be why different Alphabets developed (we are talking THOUSANDS of years here). And as I have said, Roushoum itself most likely came from the Muhjari (Zakharan) tongue with northern and Eastern influencs.
Modern-day Durpari had the same root tongue as the Imaskari, so they most-likely had a similar alphabet, at least at some point (it could have easily changed in the interveining years).
Edit:
I went back and emboldebed the point I was trying to make - I tend to lose them when I ramble on. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 15:53:49
-All of the supporting evidence makes it seem that the Tuigan alphabet is not the "pure" Imaskari alphabet, but rather, like other related languages, based off of it. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 07:50:12
Thanks George! Found Tom's article in Dragon Annual #4 from 1999. It says the Imaskari languages share a similar alphabet. It also says that "The tribes of the steppes have largely lost the knowledge of the Imaskari alphabet, and with it the ability to read and write. Some of the tribes have adopted neighboring writing systems, though most have not found their illiteracy to be a hindrance."
Which is helpful but still leaves a big question mark. Now I wonder if the Tuigan alphabet depicted in the Horde is the Imaskari alphabet that Tom says they have forgotten, or whether it was adapted from a neighboring writing system--such as Ra-Khati (which is a Shou language with Devic/Solonese influences).
My gut instinct says that the Tuigan alphabet is the original Imaskari alphabet, and the Ra-Khati alphabet is derived from Imaskari but has changed much over time. Hmmm... I wonder if Tom Costa knows... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 06:40:33
-Oh, yeah. Roushoum. Duh...
-I'm interested in discussing, still, but it is pretty late where I am, and I have school tomorrow, so I'll have to pick it back up then. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 06:40:00
You might also want to have a look at Tom Costa's articles on FR languages in one of the Dragon magazine Annuals. Someone like Sage or Wooly will be along directly to give you the exact issue number.
-- George Krashos
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 06:23:27
Thanks for your thoughts!
Actually, p. 150 of the Horde PDF has a language tree that details a lot of the languages that have descended from Imaskari and how they are related. And p.17 of the Horde Campaign Setting (p.19 of the PDF) has a half a page on linguistics with some info on how the languages of the Endless Waste relate to Imaskari. Tuigan is mentioned as one of the "Southern group" languages that remains truest to ancient Imaskari, although it has adopted much from Muhjuri (the language spoken in Murghom and Semphar).
I think there is also a surprising amount of linguistics in Races of Faerūn that also talks about Imaskari language and the tongues descended from it. The 3e FRCS names the Imaskari language as Roushoum and says it used the Imaskari alphabet. Curiously it says that Tuigan uses the Thorass alphabet, which I take to mean that the Tuigans brought back the Thorass alphabet and a lot of Western knowledge with them after their failed invasion, but presumably they were using the alphabet in the Horde box-set up until that point.
The Barbarians of the Endless Waste web supplement to the Hordelands update article in Dragon #349 (web supplement available at this link here: paizo.com/dragonissues/349/DR349_Supplement.pdf has some details about the Tuigan language. It says they had grown illiterate but had taken up the Thorass alphabet in recent years through trade.
But the question I am most interested in is whether the Tuigan alphabet is the same as the Imaskari alphabet. I would like to create an Imaskari font, but don't know if I should base it on the Tuigan or the Ra-Khati or Semphari alphabets, or if none of them are reliable representations of Imaskari writing. Does any body know of some lore somewhere that might shed some light on that? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 05:07:00
-While the oral language might not match each other very well, very often written languages do. For example, Dzongkha, the native language spoken in Bhutan, is unintelligible to an individual fluent in Tibetan when spoken. But, when written, the language becomes decipherable when written. Applying the same principle (though I have no actual evidence to support it, other than the plausibility of the situation) once more, the written language can in theory be unintelligible, but the oral language decipherable.
-I would doubt that the alphabets in question are the "pure" Imaskari alphabets. Unfortunately, there is so much we don't know about the Imaskari, so it makes a lot of this speculation shooting in the dark. Regardless, using my admittedly limited knowledge of linguistics, aided by Wikipedia, I'm going to say that neither the Tuigan, Ra-Khati or Semphari oral languages or written languages are "pure" Imaskari. The Chinese language family includes Cantonese, Gan, Hakka, Mandarin, Min, Wu, and Xiang, ignoring regional dialects and such. All have some linguistic similarities, to a degree, but none fully match Old Chinese, the Sino-Tibetan language that predated all of the above mentioned languages, that the others grew from.
-Remember, where, on Earth, the Sino-Tibetan languages have had a few thousand years to develop, the Imaskari-based languages have had just as much, if not more, when you consider how magic acts as a catalyst concerning things.
-Though, that brings up, what do we call the languages that evolved from Imaskari? Using Asia as an example, many languages grew from the Sino-Tibetan "mother" tongue? What would this "mother" tongue be called? Imaskari-Kara-Turan? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 03:50:34
For reference, the alphabets are on page 151 of the Horde pdf.
You can still download the Horde box-set pdf for free from the Wizards website at this link here: www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr1055.zip |
|
|
