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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Where is your proof that groundling was not a term used by the Netherese to refer to those who did not live in the floating cities?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just had a random thought...

In canon, we don't know of any Netherese enclaves that were capable of spelljamming. But there are a lot of enclaves about which we have no information at all. Since nothing explicitly states that no enclaves were capable of spelljamming, it doesn't violate canon to have one that went into space, but not as part of Netheril's space program.

Also, we know that Nimbral -- where they dig illusions -- was settled by Netherese survivors.

Also, we have what I've always considered a troublesome bit of lore from Realmspace: worshippers of Leira, living on Selūne, under a giant illusion. I'd've happily ignored this lore, but it became canon Realmslore with one of the web articles about the Sellplague.

Now, roll this all up into a ball. An enclave, acting independently of the rest of Netheril, went to the moon. Maybe they decided to park there, maybe they were marooned there during the Fall.

These guys were into illusions, like those that settled Nimbral. This explains why Leira worshippers on the moon. If they were marooned by the Fall, they likely have no idea what happened, and may think it was some outside force -- hence their paranoia. And the illusion could have been something they crafted themselves, soon after arriving, because of that paranoia. Though they created the illusion themselves, they considered the magic to do it to be a gift from their goddess, and over time, the truth became lost and mixed with legend.

Or, more simply, a bunch of illusionist Netherese were on a spelljammer that was part of the Netherese space program, and got "shot down" and were forced to land on the moon. The rest works pretty much unchanged.

This reconciles some troublesome lore, by simply expanding into a grey area with some existing tidbits.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Where is your proof that groundling was not a term used by the Netherese to refer to those who did not live in the floating cities?

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

Uh... Nasty tea ? I'm unfamiliar with that metaphor.

To the Reader:

Don't let Markustay fool you. "Groundling" was not a term used by the Netherese to refer to those who did not live in the floating cities.

It is sad that you can't always trust what you read in Candlekeeps canon only area, but that is unfortunately the nature of some contributors.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

Uh... Nasty tea ? I'm unfamiliar with that metaphor.

To the Reader:

Don't let Markustay fool you. "Groundling" was not a term used by the Netherese to refer to those who did not live in the floating cities.

It is sad that you can't always trust what you read in Candlekeeps canon only area, but that is unfortunately the nature of some contributors.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Wow... talk about condescending. No wonder we dumped your nasty tea in the pond.

And I've been 'called out' for sources numerous times - scribes like to go read things for themselves.

I knew there were no canon spelljamming enclaves (as in, ones that went into space themselves, not just had ships to do so), which is why I created my homebrew one... and then said IT never made it into space either (but a piece of it did - the Archmages sheared-off both the top and bottom, and sent the mountain's peak into space... where it became the first Dwarven SJ Citadel... he didn't realize the little buggers were in there!)

As for Yeoman's Loft - it is indeed an enclave, but we have had some enclaves in canon that weren't airborn (like the one Waterdeep is sitting on). HOWEVER, I find it highly unlikely that they would use one of their very few land-bound enclaves for space travel... it makes little sense.* And nothing states Yeoman's loft itself went into space - I picture it being like Cloud City in SW (ships coming and going, like a huge floating spaceport).

I also like to say (as in, in MY version of Realms/homebrew) that Selūnarra is the moon city (or one of them), and that is where the 'moonies' came from. I mean it makes sense, right? Moon-goddess stashes moon-lover city on the moon?

Good catch Nicholai - I thought I remembered something to that effect, but the Netehril box has several contradictions so thats fairly easy to ignore. As THL pointed out, its a name for people who 'come form the ground', which were also called 'low Netherese' (both because of where they came from, and also because the people in the flying enclaves considered themselves 'above' them). so that city could have been just a city the other Netherese (arcanists) called 'groundlings' in derision (they weren't 'enclave born'). Lots of ways to spin it.

'Groundlings' is also the term for those moleman-dwarf assassins Zhentil Keep uses. Perhaps it was a city of those. it would be canon, right?

*EDIT: On the other hand, maybe the magic of the SJ Helms somehow conflicted with that of the Mythalars. That actually works for us - it could be one of several reasons why they gave up on space, and also why Yeoman's Loft was a groundling city (picture them firing up a captured SJ helm for the first time, and the city suddenly becoming destabilized in the process). Both create localized field-effects - it does make sense.

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The adventure begins as characters enter the spelljamming city of Yeoman's Loft, the heart of Netheril's Realmspace activities...

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

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Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

"Great wealth entered the groundling city..." Thats what is says in the boxed set. Hope this helps. Took me quite some time to find!

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"Groundling" is a Spelljammer term for a terrestrial humanoid.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Tell me where, in canon, it states that there were absolutely no enclaves ever that were capable of spelljamming.

The absence of something saying that X is true does not mean that it is false.

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Lol, a fourth grader tried that same logical fallacy on me last week!

I'm not saying your queer ideas aren't *possible*... But they are NOT canon.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

@Ayrik

I'm quite certain that Yeoman's Loft was not an asteroid. I'll check the sources, but considering your track record on Netheril lore, I'm going to assume that you are incorrect.

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Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

"Great wealth entered the groundling city..." Thats what is says in the boxed set. Hope this helps. Took me quite some time to find!

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Besides, we could argue endlessly over anything/everything canon ... I think it's better to stick with "what is" than "what if".

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Tell me where, in canon, it states that there were absolutely no enclaves ever that were capable of spelljamming.

The absence of something saying that X is true does not mean that it is false.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Now, roll this all up into a ball. An enclave, acting independently of the rest of Netheril, went to the moon. Maybe they decided to park there, maybe they were marooned there during the Fall.

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quote:

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The absence of something saying that X is true does not mean that it is false.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just had a random thought...

In canon, we don't know of any Netherese enclaves that were capable of spelljamming. But there are a lot of enclaves about which we have no information at all. Since nothing explicitly states that no enclaves were capable of spelljamming, it doesn't violate canon to have one that went into space, but not as part of Netheril's space program.

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Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

quote:

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

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Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

Hello... I just reread some stuff in Netheril Boxed set... And it says some very interesting things.

First of all I need to say that this question is directed at 3,5ed around 1380DR


I read a spell that does time travel called Time Conduit its a level 9 spell, so it should still work, or is there something that would prevent the spell from working? And also how likely is it to find the spell and where possible???

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Time Conduit is an extant spell in the Year of the Blazing Hand. It is a very rare spell, known to few wizards in Faerun at that time. In addition to being in the collections of these few wizards, some copies of the spell exist in tomes long lost. A prodigious magic-user could also recreate Time Conduit independently, through long years of rigorous study.

All other forms of Chronomancy are STRICTLY regulated by the Lady of Mysteries.

In 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, Time Conduit functions as follows:


Time Conduit
Conjuration (Creation), Chronomancy
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 30 feet
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

Arcane Material Component: One scale from three dragons, each of a different alignment, dust from a slain time elemental, and soil from the destination land of the time conduit.

Upon casting this spell, a shimmering golden portal appears somewhere close to the caster (though the caster has no idea where the portal appears). The 10-foot circular opening appears to lead into a long tunnel filled with silvery-blue flashes of light. Creatures that gaze into the tunnel for more than one round begin to see glimpses of their past cascading past the walls of the tunnel, though these memories cause no damage. The portal remains for one round per level of the wizard or until the caster enters the conduit, whichever occurs first.
During casting, the wizard names the age and year that the time conduit is to transport those who enter it. For example, a wizard who wanted to visit Netheril around the time of Karsus’s birth would state: “During the Shadowed Age of Netheril, in the year 3163 NY.” Creatures entering the time conduit spell are immediately stripped of all magical items and memorized spells (though spell books and scrolls remain; psionics are likewise depleted, though they return at the normal rate). In addition, items that do not yet exist in the time are removed, such as full-plate armor, arquebuses, and most gnomish inventions. Stripped items are stored in the conduit and are returned during the voyage home to the time travelers (but the return trip likewise strips travelers of items they have collected during their stay, creating a storehouse on each end of the conduit where time travelers can leave their belongings). Spells that do not exist in the current age appear as blank pages in a spellcaster’s spell book. Scrolls that do not yet exist in the current time are likewise blank. Blank pages return to normal when the time traveler returns to his own time or when the spell becomes available during his stay in the new time (such as by it being created during the year in which they’re in the past).
There is never a way to determine the precise destination when using a time conduit spell. The only thing for certain is that the time travelers appear somewhere in the lands that they seek. For example, travelers entering Netheril might appear in the southern city of Thiefsward or they might appear as far north as Coldfoot. They might even appear on the High Ice or somewhere deep in the Eastern Forest.
Time travelers always arrive during the festivities celebrating the new year; they always return to their own times during the final night of the year. These are the times when the mystical energies and the forces of time are most powerful on Toril. Nothing can prevent a time traveler from being drawn into the time conduit at the close of the year, even spells that negate magic or shield against its effects. Upon returning to their own time, creatures discover that one month has passed since they left (though they have still aged one full year).
Also, time travelers can not exist more than once in a particular time-once a traveler time-travels to a particular year, he can never return to that year again. Any attempt to do so simply fails, and the caster is instead hurled 1d100 years into a random time and place.

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I gotta ask if is your own re-write of the 2ed spell or an official source? And if it is official, where have you foundit?

thnaks!

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

quote:

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Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

Hello... I just reread some stuff in Netheril Boxed set... And it says some very interesting things.

First of all I need to say that this question is directed at 3,5ed around 1380DR


I read a spell that does time travel called Time Conduit its a level 9 spell, so it should still work, or is there something that would prevent the spell from working? And also how likely is it to find the spell and where possible???

---

Time Conduit is an extant spell in the Year of the Blazing Hand. It is a very rare spell, known to few wizards in Faerun at that time. In addition to being in the collections of these few wizards, some copies of the spell exist in tomes long lost. A prodigious magic-user could also recreate Time Conduit independently, through long years of rigorous study.

All other forms of Chronomancy are STRICTLY regulated by the Lady of Mysteries.

In 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, Time Conduit functions as follows:


Time Conduit
Conjuration (Creation), Chronomancy
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 30 feet
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

Arcane Material Component: One scale from three dragons, each of a different alignment, dust from a slain time elemental, and soil from the destination land of the time conduit.

Upon casting this spell, a shimmering golden portal appears somewhere close to the caster (though the caster has no idea where the portal appears). The 10-foot circular opening appears to lead into a long tunnel filled with silvery-blue flashes of light. Creatures that gaze into the tunnel for more than one round begin to see glimpses of their past cascading past the walls of the tunnel, though these memories cause no damage. The portal remains for one round per level of the wizard or until the caster enters the conduit, whichever occurs first.
During casting, the wizard names the age and year that the time conduit is to transport those who enter it. For example, a wizard who wanted to visit Netheril around the time of Karsus’s birth would state: “During the Shadowed Age of Netheril, in the year 3163 NY.” Creatures entering the time conduit spell are immediately stripped of all magical items and memorized spells (though spell books and scrolls remain; psionics are likewise depleted, though they return at the normal rate). In addition, items that do not yet exist in the time are removed, such as full-plate armor, arquebuses, and most gnomish inventions. Stripped items are stored in the conduit and are returned during the voyage home to the time travelers (but the return trip likewise strips travelers of items they have collected during their stay, creating a storehouse on each end of the conduit where time travelers can leave their belongings). Spells that do not exist in the current age appear as blank pages in a spellcaster’s spell book. Scrolls that do not yet exist in the current time are likewise blank. Blank pages return to normal when the time traveler returns to his own time or when the spell becomes available during his stay in the new time (such as by it being created during the year in which they’re in the past).
There is never a way to determine the precise destination when using a time conduit spell. The only thing for certain is that the time travelers appear somewhere in the lands that they seek. For example, travelers entering Netheril might appear in the southern city of Thiefsward or they might appear as far north as Coldfoot. They might even appear on the High Ice or somewhere deep in the Eastern Forest.
Time travelers always arrive during the festivities celebrating the new year; they always return to their own times during the final night of the year. These are the times when the mystical energies and the forces of time are most powerful on Toril. Nothing can prevent a time traveler from being drawn into the time conduit at the close of the year, even spells that negate magic or shield against its effects. Upon returning to their own time, creatures discover that one month has passed since they left (though they have still aged one full year).
Also, time travelers can not exist more than once in a particular time-once a traveler time-travels to a particular year, he can never return to that year again. Any attempt to do so simply fails, and the caster is instead hurled 1d100 years into a random time and place.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I believe there were only two enclaves capable of spelljamming in canon, and I think only a handful (perhaps even a dozen) capable of planar transit.

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Oh, and this is DEAD WRONG.

You should delete it promptly.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

Sure thing, Wooly Rupert!

(Post edited above edited.)

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I believe there were only two enclaves capable of spelljamming in canon, and I think only a handful (perhaps even a dozen) capable of planar transit.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I don't recall Netherese arcanists being any kind of scourge across the spheres ... a contained scourge across much of Realmspace and some of the immediate flow, perhaps, and even that for only a very short period before they became enough of an arrogant nuisance to be violently suppressed by every other spacefaring group they met. Several archwizards were noted for their bizarre obsession with Spelljamming, but these individuals were anomalous and treated as outcasts.

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