| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Jul 2012 : 21:09:21
Hello...
After a bit of light reading about the Imaskar, I am amazed at the power they wielded. I have thously been thinking about some of the things I read. One of the things was ofc. about the intersteller travel, and the slaves they "stole". Pandorym, a creature so powerful that it could slay, no would slay, an entire pantheon, and ofc the ban of gods. When I read this I cant help comparing them to Netherill. Apparently the Imaskar leaned magic first from demons and then from the LeShay. This would to me seem that the LeShay were wielders of unparalleled magic. Magic that even out powered that of the gods. They created extremely powerful artifacts that seems to dwarf that of the Netherill. They were also able to fight and stand up to the fight when the gods laid waist to them even though they lost in the end.
Now a couple of questions: If one were to compare them to the netherese, who would be deemed the more powerful empire? I personally think that if (without this turning into a vs thing) that Imaskar would wipe the floors with the Netherese. What is the scribes here thought on this??
Yees... Karsus took the power of one god... only one. Imaskar banned a complete pantheon.
Ohh I almost forgot Pandorym. How on earth or how in thee multivers did they summon, part and imprison a being powerful enough to simply end a setting???
This question if also interesting en game mechanics term i think. What level of spell caster would these wizard kings be and what level of spell would such a binding spell be???
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 18:53:09
The only mention of this AFAIK is in the novel Darkvision, and it is a very oblique reference: The main character finds some ancient pictographs showing what appears to be fey giving an Imaskari Emperor some sort of gift.
And thats all we have.
We have tons of conjecture, though. Spiritfolk (half-fey) come from the east, so its reasonable to assume Kami are/were fey at some point (they are probably not the originals - too many differnt sub-groups of them, just like in the west). Since the Shou Empire was born from the ashes of the Imaskari one, the connections are there, but very tenuous. The original FR Fey (Le'Shay?) probably had their civilization somewhere in or around the region of the Taan (the Hordelands).
So thats it - we have lots of hints buried in FR lore about the fey and the east, and we have one very vague reference that could mean anything.
EDIT: Another connection - Mark Sehestedt's novel Frostfell also points to an important 'fey-connection' in the Taan/Wastes region. Aside from an ancient Archfey he places there, you also have the Lythari (some of whom seem to have the ability to 'sniff out' Gates between Toril and Faerie), and the ancient druidic traditions of the Raumathari (which one would have to assume was part of their original culture before they became part of the Imaskari empire).
So all indications are that the fey once roamed the lands that eventually belonged to Imaskar, but we have very little in the way of 'concrete' lore to that effect. |
| Razz |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 14:11:15
Where can I learn more on how the Imaskari it their magic from the Fey? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 18:29:28
And the Sarrukh had a city very close to Imaskar along the salt flats.  |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 11:54:57
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I think the main problem here is that there just isnt enough lore about these more "peripheral" areas of the realms.
I for one would love to learn more about places other than the Sword Coast or Silver Marches.
The Silver Marches were covered in 3e+, they were more explored exactly because there was just a little published material before. Many areas are open to DM development, and are detailed with time. When I started DMing my campaign in 2e, it was hard to get material about the Savage North... The focus was much more on Cormyr and the Dalelands. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 11:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I think I read somewhere about him being a sarrukh... Not sure if it was on a canon source, though.
Serpent Kingdoms.
Anauroch.
Thank you, Mr. Boyd. Yesterday I couldn't check my sources.  |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 22:15:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I agree... Just thought that if he or it approached Netheril, it would seem likely that he also approached Imaskar!
Not necessarily... It could have been purely a matter of proximity. Or it could have been that he saw potential in Netheril, and didn't see it in Imaskar.
I do not see the Terraseer as a person who moved a little, but you might be right ofc. Who knows! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 22:05:28
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I agree... Just thought that if he or it approached Netheril, it would seem likely that he also approached Imaskar!
Not necessarily... It could have been purely a matter of proximity. Or it could have been that he saw potential in Netheril, and didn't see it in Imaskar. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 21:42:40
I agree... Just thought that if he or it approached Netheril, it would seem likely that he also approached Imaskar! |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 20:07:50
I think the main problem here is that there just isnt enough lore about these more "peripheral" areas of the realms.
I for one would love to learn more about places other than the Sword Coast or Silver Marches. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 16:59:19
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Just something that got me thinking... Do we know anything about whether or not The Terraseer ever had anything to do with the Imaskari?
I think I read somewhere about him being a sarrukh... Not sure if it was on a canon source, though.
Serpent Kingdoms.
Anauroch. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 16:56:44
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Just something that got me thinking... Do we know anything about whether or not The Terraseer ever had anything to do with the Imaskari?
I think I read somewhere about him being a sarrukh... Not sure if it was on a canon source, though. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 28 Jul 2012 : 13:07:20
Just something that got me thinking... Do we know anything about whether or not The Terraseer ever had anything to do with the Imaskari? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 02:19:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Did many Netherese enclaves escape just before Karsus's Folly?
In canon, only two did: Shade (which hopped out either the day before the Fall, earlier the day of the Fall, or right as the Fall was happening; there are conflicting accounts on this) and Opus/Selūnarra, which Selūne grabbed and pulled into her domain, during the Fall.
That said, we don't know the ultimate fate of many of the enclaves; we don't even have a definitive number on how many existed. So it's possible that there were other surviving enclaves, far from Faerūn. I, personally, have tinkered with having one parked over one of Toril's undescribed continents, when the Fall happened.
I would like it too if there were indeed more enclaves that survived the Fall. Some of them enjoy their independence and leave the world alone; some plot to overthrow Shade; and other come to join forces with them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 22:53:41
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Did many Netherese enclaves escape just before Karsus's Folly?
In canon, only two did: Shade (which hopped out either the day before the Fall, earlier the day of the Fall, or right as the Fall was happening; there are conflicting accounts on this) and Opus/Selūnarra, which Selūne grabbed and pulled into her domain, during the Fall.
That said, we don't know the ultimate fate of many of the enclaves; we don't even have a definitive number on how many existed. So it's possible that there were other surviving enclaves, far from Faerūn. I, personally, have tinkered with having one parked over one of Toril's undescribed continents, when the Fall happened.
Is there a record in Shou Lung of the day Karsus caused magic to fail? Does Mystra's power influence places such as Kara-Tur and Maztica with the loss of her magic prior to the events of the Spellplague?
The reason I ask is that in 2e there were "Spheres of Influence" where essentially various powers had control of magic in different places on the world of Toril. After the Imaskari, the Mulhorandi Pantheon controlled much of the lands of Imaskar...but before they came would Mystra have even been the god of magic for the Imaskari?
I was asking this same basic question back when 2E was around. Basically, I was asking, if Mystra cut off a deities access to magic, could a deity from say a contested area of the realms (for instance Thoth) offer said deity access to magic just to spite Mystra. The answer I got at THAT time was that Mystra controlled the weave for all of Toril and that all gods of magic in other pantheons even were secondary to her with regards to weave access (which I thought was odd). Whether that ruling held throughout 3rd edition.... I think so, but I can't say with certainty. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 19:11:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Did many Netherese enclaves escape just before Karsus's Folly?
In canon, only two did: Shade (which hopped out either the day before the Fall, earlier the day of the Fall, or right as the Fall was happening; there are conflicting accounts on this) and Opus/Selūnarra, which Selūne grabbed and pulled into her domain, during the Fall.
That said, we don't know the ultimate fate of many of the enclaves; we don't even have a definitive number on how many existed. So it's possible that there were other surviving enclaves, far from Faerūn. I, personally, have tinkered with having one parked over one of Toril's undescribed continents, when the Fall happened.
Is there a record in Shou Lung of the day Karsus caused magic to fail? Does Mystra's power influence places such as Kara-Tur and Maztica with the loss of her magic prior to the events of the Spellplague?
The reason I ask is that in 2e there were "Spheres of Influence" where essentially various powers had control of magic in different places on the world of Toril. After the Imaskari, the Mulhorandi Pantheon controlled much of the lands of Imaskar...but before they came would Mystra have even been the god of magic for the Imaskari? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 19:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Did many Netherese enclaves escape just before Karsus's Folly?
In canon, only two did: Shade (which hopped out either the day before the Fall, earlier the day of the Fall, or right as the Fall was happening; there are conflicting accounts on this) and Opus/Selūnarra, which Selūne grabbed and pulled into her domain, during the Fall.
That said, we don't know the ultimate fate of many of the enclaves; we don't even have a definitive number on how many existed. So it's possible that there were other surviving enclaves, far from Faerūn. I, personally, have tinkered with having one parked over one of Toril's undescribed continents, when the Fall happened. |
| Quale |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 18:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my games the Imaskari had three conflicting arcane traditions (and more but these are basic), one were the artificers, includes golems, mechanical magic, spatial manipulation, then the summoners-pactmasters-truenamers, and the ones influenced by the fey were similar to the lifeshapers from Athas.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
This question if also interesting en game mechanics term i think. What level of spell caster would these wizard kings be and what level of spell would such a binding spell be???
in 3e it would be an epic spell seed made of the binding spell
That's somewhat similar to what I had proposed above. The one thing I never got into very deeply (because I never ran a campaign in Imaskar), but I think is a very good question that we should answer is this: they were powerful wielders of magic, but for over a thousand years following the plague that decimated them, they turned away from the gods. I can't see any culture willfully giving up access to healing magic, so I would believe that they found some kind of replacement for such. Yet, I don't see a rise in the number of bards to match that scale happening. Maybe its only because my mind is currently on bending and elementalism, but I wonder if they didn't have a rise in the study of elemental based arts and they learned somehow to heal based on the fact that the body is made mostly of water (ala similiar to avatar). Maybe this lore was lost because the Mulan gods that arrived in Toril saw them for the threat they were to their old temples and decided to wipe out these healers so as not to have competition for worshippers. This could somewhat explain why the fertile plains of Raurin were changed into the Raurin desert too, thus removing the water from the land. Perhaps the fountain in Terbakar that created the river athis was a powerful artifact of water elementalism/bending.
Yeah elemental magic certainly was important, some of that lore survived, mostly in Raumathar. Lack of clerical magic probably wasn't a problem, from the fey they had healing springs etc. I once had post-Imaskar people similar to the Fremen from Dune, tough the water of life custom was eventually replaced by blood. Besides water I guess artificial conduits to the positive energy planes were the easiest way to substitute healing spells. Tough the number of arcane spells that heal is not that small these days. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 13:32:13
Did many Netherese enclaves escape just before Karsus's Folly?
Besides the Imaskar were concerned with their own borders and perhaps possible expansion into other worlds entirely, heck they could have just moved their empire to other worlds where the natives were still trying to learn how to make fire! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 07:48:30
The Netherese and the Imaskari didn't war with the other because, well, they didn't see the point.
The Netherese may be a conglomeration of city-states (almost constantly at war with itself), but when threatened by a common foe, they would likely band together and terminate said enemy. [The only reason they hadn't done so during the 'phaerimm menace' was because many of them hadn't exactly seen the phaerimm and, unlike Karsus, couldn't feel their presence deep below their lands, nor the lifedrain that slowly took away their vital resources.] If the Imaskari can be as subtle as the phaerimm, or more, then they'd probably pose a real threat to Netheril. But then again, what's the point of wasting all their resources, magical and mundane alike, to conquer an already dying empire? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 05:44:58
I have always wondered, how did they substitute healing magic...Maybe they tortured enough priests and used their healing spells as a template to rework divine power into arcane magic... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 14:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my games the Imaskari had three conflicting arcane traditions (and more but these are basic), one were the artificers, includes golems, mechanical magic, spatial manipulation, then the summoners-pactmasters-truenamers, and the ones influenced by the fey were similar to the lifeshapers from Athas.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
This question if also interesting en game mechanics term i think. What level of spell caster would these wizard kings be and what level of spell would such a binding spell be???
in 3e it would be an epic spell seed made of the binding spell
That's somewhat similar to what I had proposed above. The one thing I never got into very deeply (because I never ran a campaign in Imaskar), but I think is a very good question that we should answer is this: they were powerful wielders of magic, but for over a thousand years following the plague that decimated them, they turned away from the gods. I can't see any culture willfully giving up access to healing magic, so I would believe that they found some kind of replacement for such. Yet, I don't see a rise in the number of bards to match that scale happening. Maybe its only because my mind is currently on bending and elementalism, but I wonder if they didn't have a rise in the study of elemental based arts and they learned somehow to heal based on the fact that the body is made mostly of water (ala similiar to avatar). Maybe this lore was lost because the Mulan gods that arrived in Toril saw them for the threat they were to their old temples and decided to wipe out these healers so as not to have competition for worshippers. This could somewhat explain why the fertile plains of Raurin were changed into the Raurin desert too, thus removing the water from the land. Perhaps the fountain in Terbakar that created the river athis was a powerful artifact of water elementalism/bending. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 13:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As part of my research into the 'guts' of each and every locale I place on a map, I get a 'feeling' for large swaths of area, and the temperament of the people therein. From what I can tell, The North is the ONLY place where people 'shoot first and ask questions later' in regards to orcs. They mix freely with humans in several places - they've even been part of the Calimshan/Shoon Empires (and still are, pre-plague). This is demonstrated by the sheer numbers of half-orcs in communities in the Lands of Intrigue (much higher then anywhere else, with several towns having very abnormal percentages). The only 'Orc Horde' we have on record (in canon) of penetrating into that region was the one that started in the North.
The same goes for the south and east - the only record of an Orc Horde in the Old Empires was the one brought-in from another world by the Orcish Pantheon. Orcs have always lived in all of these regions, and yet, we only see the CONSTANT and MASSIVE aggression in The North.
I am not saying Orcs in other areas are 'nicer', but they are smarter - they don't pick fights they can't win. And they certainly don't pick the same pointless fight over and over again for thousands of years. They pretty-much keep to themselves, and fight other non-humans, unless provoked. Those non-North Orcs have learned the same lesson most demi-humans have; leave humans the hell alone.
On the other hand, somewhere (probably Savage Frontier) it states that the Uthgardt have a number of half-orcs amongst them. It appears that they aren't so picky about partners, and Northern orcs aren't as resentful toward them as they are other humans (most-likely because they smell the same). 
Oh... and High-Forest Orcs are NOT the same breed as the mountain Orcs. A number of tribes live in peace right alongside the Elves (and I'm not saying its all 'cottoncandy & butterflies' - they probably don't like each other either, but they respect each other and leave each other alone, except in small, one-to-one type of conflicts. My assumption here is that Turlang has a LOT to do with 'keeping the peace' in HIS woods).
I'd equate the reason that the orcs surrounding the old empires aren't constantly raising hordes is there is a nearby area that is openly accepting of them as a free people (that area being Thay). They may be second class citizens compared to the red wizards and their personal "families", but they live as a free people and not as a tribal culture. Plus, they're of a higher rank than many other humans who are slaves. Add to this that the Thayans willingly use them as soldiers to sate their bloodlust, encourage their most powerful to breed in order to create new sub-races of orcs. This has probably drawn most of the orcs from surrounding territories to Thay (as well as goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, ogres), and those who didn't come willingly are probably openly captured and sold as slaves to Thay (and I don't see Thayan orcs being teary-eyed over having orc,goblin, etc... slaves to push around).
They also most likely send those orcs who are proving problematic off on "extremely lucrative" missions that they are more than likely not going to survive. For those too smart to fall for this, they may assign them to guard duty over an area that they have intelligence will be attacked, or quite simply "bait" them into doing something openly stupid. They may even just wait for them to be a pain and turn them into slaves as a lesson, then turn around and reward their comrades for being good servants. Or they may just "assign" them to another guard detachment so that they're no longer with their comrades, meanwhile they secretly use them as training fodder for their apprentices, after all what orcs are trained to read and write enough to follow troop deployments on a nationwide scale. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 13:03:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, the were a nation of individuals... just like the Netherese.
What I think (as in, my own feelings on the matter, nothing canon) is while the Imaskari tried to find work-arounds and solutions to things, the Netherese simply tried to eliminate their problems, without considering the far-reaching consequences.
I was just re-reading the Old Empires material last night, and I came across a passage that stated that the folk of that region (which should include the Raurin civilization, which we later find out is the Imaskari) tried to find spells beyond 9th level but couldn't, and assumed that spells of that caliber were 'meant for the gods'. And yet we clearly have knowledge of such magic amongst the Netherese.
So what was the difference? the Netherese had the Nether scrolls - magic recorded by three of the Creator Races. The Imaskari, on the other hand (and AFAWK) only received some sort of help from the Fey. Obviously there was something the other three races observed or figured-out that the Fey did not, OR, that they did not want the Imaskari to know about (I have my theories about that... fey have some sort of relationship with time, and maybe knew humans should not have that level of power).
So the difference is that the Netherese first approached magic in whatever manner the Sarrukh did - probably with no boundaries - and the Imaskari first approached it from a long-lived fey perspective; that small changes wrought now will provide huge differences later on. Over time, individuals will have arisen on both sides with the opposite views, so by the time either civilization fell we had the normal human spectrum of personalities and viewpoints. Vangerdehast was taught (mentioned in two different novel series) that "you should never use magic when your own two hands will do the trick". Obviously this approach derives from the fey/Elven heritage of his teachers - that one should conserve one's resources and let the natural forces of the world do much of your work for you.
For instance, a fey or Elf might move some stones around near a small stream because he wants a nice chasm to form somewhere eventually. In a thousand years, he has a canyon blocking a route to an elven safehold. A person who adheres to the Sarrukh/Netherese school of thought will blast-away until the canyon is cut, with no thought to the environment, flora, or fauna in the region, or what other things might be upset by the changes. He expends huge amounts of power to get what he wants and have immediate results, even if those results are catastrophic to other parts of his plan (like he winds up flooding-out the area he was trying to protect, or whatever).
Both societies had there good and evil - that has nothing to do with it. Its the methodology they used to approach everything. Note that Imasakri only enslaved humans (and probably treated them halfway decently, which is what any sane person does with their 'property'). The Netherese enslaved gnomes, and treated most other non-humans with derision and even experimented on them (with the exceptions of the dwarves and Elves... although I think they weren't all that fond of the Elves either). The Imaskari were smart-enough to know that non-humans would ignore humans enslaving humans. They might even find it amusing. The Netherese didn't care who they pissed-off. I'm not saying Imaskari were any nicer then the Netherese - they were just more clever about showing their 'dark side'. In fact, I like to think that the Mulan were lead through the portals, not forced, with promises of a 'paradise' on the other end. Imagine the primitive peoples of Earth seeing Imaskari flying-about and doing miraculous things - they would think they were in the presence of gods.
Also note that the only place in the Realms where the orcs repeatedly form hordes and constantly wreak havoc on anyone (including amongst themselves) is in the North, where the Netherese systematically exterminated them for thousands of years. Its no wonder they have a chip on their shoulder. Even during the Orcgate wars, after those off-world Orcs were brought to Toril to fight, things settled down and orcs became part of the local political climate (and one city has a half-orc leader). These are the types of consequences the Netherese caused, and continue to cause, long after their own demise. They just didn't bother to see 'the big picture'.
I think that this may be going a bit far based upon a quote. One needs to look at the timeframe of the release of the Old Empires product (right after second edition came out in 1990) versus when Netheril Empire of Magic was released (1996, near the end of 2nd edition). The epic magic system (whatever it was called in 2nd edition) wasn't released yet when Old Empires came out. The elven high magic system had not been explored yet when Old Empires came out. So, the game concept of "higher than 9th level spells" was considered taboo at the time. |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 09:05:28
In my games the Imaskari had three conflicting arcane traditions (and more but these are basic), one were the artificers, includes golems, mechanical magic, spatial manipulation, then the summoners-pactmasters-truenamers, and the ones influenced by the fey were similar to the lifeshapers from Athas.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
This question if also interesting en game mechanics term i think. What level of spell caster would these wizard kings be and what level of spell would such a binding spell be???
in 3e it would be an epic spell seed made of the binding spell |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 15:57:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: I have to correct myself - the Imaskari DID obliterate the kingdom of Zexthandrim, but those were just kobolds. Obviously the Imaskari wanted only a humanocentric Empire.
Always seems to be the case that exterminations of kobolds never counts as genocide. There's a side quest in Ruins of Adventure involving several thousand kobolds, as I recall. I had an NPC group take care of that - they were gone for months, but they got the job done. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 03:33:13
I thought that the Imaskar had learned their dimensional lore from the Batrachi, one of the original Creator Races?
Still some of your arguments are dead-on, the Netherese were essentially only looking out for themselves, their enclaves were just their own tiny kingdoms, with the exception of Low Netheril, i suppose...
The Imaskari magic is still something to behold though, what about the Imaskarcana, i know there are 7 of them, with 7 more called the false Imaskarcana or the Faces of Madness, correct?? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 01:30:52
The North is prone to VERY bad winters, and pre-campaign (pre-1357 DR) there was any number of extremely bad winters where there was virtually NO growing season.
I'm not saying that the Netherse made them breed faster (although theoretically evolution should have stepped-in and made them more fertile/verile to replenish their numbers). I am also not saying that they have just as much food as the southern/eastern orcs 9that would be absurd), but from all I have read, orcs in the north are more ornery then others, on average, and people tend to 'shoot first and ask questions later' in regards to them (and vice-verse).
I can also point out its not entirely the Orcs fault - the humans are just as xenophobic because they've been hammered by hordes for thousands of years. There is a certain amount of 'stress' in The North that isn't found in most other places.
Even Drow are more acceptable elsewhere (but not by much) - something about The North makes everyone 'trigger happy' (probably the 'frontier' attitude).
And yes, back on-topic - the Imaskari do seem to have been master manipulators. I really don't see the Netherese folding other peoples into their Empire; they were just too haughty. But the Imaskari did it to several groups, making them more like Rome (and like Rome, non-citizens would not have had the same rights, but they were still part of the Empire). The Netherese did not try to 'absorb' other cultures and lands, it just moved in and took them over, usually exterminating whatever was already there. They were wasteful, and brutal.
EDIT: I have to correct myself - the Imaskari DID obliterate the kingdom of Zexthandrim, but those were just kobolds. Obviously the Imaskari wanted only a humanocentric Empire. |
| Stormlord77 |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 00:48:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is no proof anywhere that Northern orcs breed like rabbits and try stealing everything not nailed down (including crowbars to deal with nailed-down stuff) because of an ancient grudge going back two millenia.
now that i think about it, didnt i read somewhere (think it was land of intrigue) that the southern orcs had more resources (ie food) and therefore didnt need to horde out and attack folks to feed their population?
i would imagine food is scarcer in the north, shorter growing season and all that...just a thought i suppose |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Jul 2012 : 22:48:34
As to orcs continually "hording" it out of the North, I think it is because they do in fact hold grudges...they hold a grudge against anyone and everyone in the lands that they think should belong to them.
Unfortunately, they aren't organized enough to properly settle...OH, WAIT! They did didn't they.
How many orc hordes since Many Arrows?
As a real world similarity: The Central Asian lands have spawned hundreds of hordes in our own world. Even the Celtic peoples originated somewhere near modern Kazakhstan...possibly around/near Lake Balkhash.
Hordes/Barbaric Migrations happen because they want land...and Orc Hordes form because not only do they want land, but because they think all the good lands were stolen from them just like Gruumsh told them they were!
On the other hand, you have the Grey Orcs of the East. These orcs were invaders. They don't feel they have a "birthright" to lands because they have no legends of their gods telling them they did. Instead, they have legends of being invaders who got their butts spanked and so slink around and find a nitch here and there.
Just my take.
EDIT:
Forgot the Imaskari!
I think they were indeed, overall, a more powerful magical civilization than other human nations...but only in certain areas. They seemed to be more of a manipulator race. I picture them using far less Alteration/Transmutation and Invocation/Evocation magic (though they obviously had it)...and instead was far more subtle and "far-reaching" in their magic beyond the immediate gratification many wizards go for. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jul 2012 : 21:08:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As part of my research into the 'guts' of each and every locale I place on a map, I get a 'feeling' for large swaths of area, and the temperament of the people therein. From what I can tell, The North is the ONLY place where people 'shoot first and ask questions later' in regards to orcs. They mix freely with humans in several places - they've even been part of the Calimshan/Shoon Empires (and still are, pre-plague). This is demonstrated by the sheer numbers of half-orcs in communities in the Lands of Intrigue (much higher then anywhere else, with several towns having very abnormal percentages). The only 'Orc Horde' we have on record (in canon) of penetrating into that region was the one that started in the North.
The same goes for the south and east - the only record of an Orc Horde in the Old Empires was the one brought-in from another world by the Orcish Pantheon. Orcs have always lived in all of these regions, and yet, we only see the CONSTANT and MASSIVE aggression in The North.
I am not saying Orcs in other areas are 'nicer', but they are smarter - they don't pick fights they can't win. And they certainly don't pick the same pointless fight over and over again for thousands of years. They pretty-much keep to themselves, and fight other non-humans, unless provoked. Those non-North Orcs have learned the same lesson most demi-humans have; leave humans the hell alone.
On the other hand, somewhere (probably Savage Frontier) it states that the Uthgardt have a number of half-orcs amongst them. It appears that they aren't so picky about partners, and Northern orcs aren't as resentful toward them as they are other humans (most-likely because they smell the same).
Oh... and High-Forest Orcs are NOT the same breed as the mountain Orcs. A number of tribes leave in peace right alongside the Elves (and I'm not saying its all 'cottoncandy & butterflies' - they probably don't like each other either, but they respect each other and leave each other alone, except in small, one-to-one type of conflicts. My assumption here is that Turlang has a LOT to do with 'keeping the peace' in HIS woods).
This does not prove your earlier assertation. Orc hordes in the North whelm because of explosive over-population; if this doesn't happen elsewhere, it's likely because the numbers of orcs are dramatically smaller. It's hard to have a orc horde without having tens of thousands of orcs.
There is no proof anywhere that Northern orcs breed like rabbits and try stealing everything not nailed down (including crowbars to deal with nailed-down stuff) because of an ancient grudge going back two millenia. |
|
|
