| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 11:35:11
I recall reading in some FR novel of primordials that even Ao feared..... I can't remember where it was mentioned. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 02:56:07
Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods? 
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Or would that be us? 
On a related (to the OP) topic, could the World Serpent have been the original world of Abeir-Toril, and it was shattered when the world was sundered (and split-off into Abeir)? If so, would there be an over-deity or primordial for that world, a Chauntea/Earthmother figure, that could possibly re-combine and reform the original world?
Theres your 5e hook right there.
[/quote]
And there ladies and gentleman is the concept behind my first novel, probably never to be published, but I'm working on it all the same. |
| Veritas |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 02:42:18
Not intending to resurrect an old thread but the novel but the O.P. is thinking of "Prince of Lies" by James Lowder which is a 2E novel depicting the creation of the Cyrinishad, the destruction of Zhentil Keep, and the ascension of Kelemvor. The passage the OP refers to is when Cyric visits Oghma's library looking for a spell to locate Kelemvor's spirit.
"Cyric scanned the lines of cramped magical script, penned by a long-forgotten evil god named Gargauth. The cryptic text alluded to
primordial battles between the greater powers and weird beings more mighty even than Ao." |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:23:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Or would that be us?
 You know... I think you might have something with that last comment...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On a related (to the OP) topic, could the World Serpent have been the original world of Abeir-Toril, and it was shattered when the world was sundered (and split-off into Abeir)? If so, would there be an over-deity or primordial for that world, a Chauntea/Earthmother figure, that could possibly re-combine and reform the original world?
Theres your 5e hook right there.
 Now this is an angle I hadn't considered... I'd thought of a few other ways to use the gods to achieve this goal, but I like this one... and of course, it would return to pre-3E distances and geography, giving everyone (designers) lots of space to work in... and it would be riddled with portals, allowing speedy travel over these vast distances... hrm... this place sounds familiar...  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 18:03:41
Yes, both Titans and Jotuns (which I believe to be the same group) are primordial Giants. 'Earthly' (mortal) giants came later, after the first godswar (and were created by Annam on Toril).
Annam would be a primordial with this reasoning. Othea, on the other hand, may have been something akin to an Elemental (lord?) Giantess.
There being two tiers of 'giant' not only makes sense, its also canon - In Planescape, they differentiated between the 'common' titan in D&D, and Planer ones associated with the Greeks. Note that even in Norse mythology, the giant-types have elemental associations.
Coincidentally (or not), dragons also have two tiers - mortal, and Celestial. I hold that the Elder Gods (who I call Drękons) created the first Celestial Dragons (Lung), who then proceeded to create the mortal ones we are more familiar with. That means, in my proto-cosmology, (greater) Titans and Celestial (Lung) Dragons are 'cousins', of a sort - each created for a separate purpose and having a hand in creating the world. At some point in time, they had a falling-out, which may have been one of the earliest confrontations that escalated in the Godswar.
Mostly, conjecture, of course.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:17:16
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I recall reading in some FR novel of primordials that even Ao feared..... I can't remember where it was mentioned.
Is this a 4th edition novel?
No, it's in the Avatar series...
The avatar series was to bridge 1st and 2nd edition. Primordials weren't even a glimmer in the thought processes of the developers yet. If something mentions primordials in those books, I'd read it along the lines of the generic version of what a "primordial power" is in a lot of stories (i.e an ancient power). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:14:11
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I might be totally mistaken, but to me, and the way I think of Primodials or Elders are that they are somehow a constant. Something not a god but equal in power. Dendar, I think is one. In Nors Mythology its a worm that coils around the entire world.
But a long story short, I believe them to be something created not by the will of a god or Over god, but somehow by chance or by war or sorrow og somehow by a combination.
Well at least thats how I think of it!
Yeah, but Jormungand, the world serpent, was still of the gods. It was the child of Loki and a giantess. Unless of course Loki wasn't actually a god (since its been intimated that he's a jotun... which could the giants of Norse mythology be Primordials?). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:09:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Didn't the original SpellJammer "erupt" from inside a crystal sphere, shattering it in the process? I guess that makes it sort of parasitic like the Alien series.
Ugh...I've been infected with SmallJammers! (And yes, they're called SmallJammers, that's not a typo.)
Good Hunting!
Indeed. Which makes me wonder... The Spelljammer breaks a lot of rules in Spelljammer and regular D&D canon, like breaking a sphere or the fact that gods can't really say anything about it. What if this is because the Spelljammer is the last remnants of the overdeity and/or the pantheon of that shattered sphere? An explanation along those lines would explain a lot...
Intriguingly, I've considered the origin of the Spelljammer along somewhat similar lines.
What if the Spelljammer were some type of divine weapon [that has obviously forgotten it's primary purpose {maybe because it was activated too early?}] forged by the fallen overdeity/pantheon of the shattered sphere? A last-ditch attempt to strike back at the enemy of the overdeity/pantheon/crystal sphere, perhaps?
And throw in that the lady of pain was involved somehow and this created the city of sigil. Conspiracies area always the most fun things in realmslore. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:09:43
No doubt Ao would or could have problems if they all turned on him, but I would suspect that since he banished them all to abeir he would have no such trouble killing one... |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 23:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I recall reading in some FR novel of primordials that even Ao feared..... I can't remember where it was mentioned.
Is this a 4th edition novel?
No, it's in the Avatar series... |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:19:28
I might be totally mistaken, but to me, and the way I think of Primodials or Elders are that they are somehow a constant. Something not a god but equal in power. Dendar, I think is one. In Nors Mythology its a worm that coils around the entire world.
But a long story short, I believe them to be something created not by the will of a god or Over god, but somehow by chance or by war or sorrow og somehow by a combination.
Well at least thats how I think of it! |
| Marc |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:01:45
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I recall reading in some FR novel of primordials that even Ao feared..... I can't remember where it was mentioned.
Is this a 4th edition novel? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 13:51:25
Trapped overgods? I don't know, but I'd like to think that creating a crystal sphere, which appears like a requirement for one to be called an overgod, is creating and safeguarding one's reality. Overgod A may pay Overgod B's crystal sphere a visit upon the latter's permission, but would be totally in B's restrictions. There may be some inter-crystal sphere rules set up and agreed upon by a convocation of overgods, allowing them to enter each other's domain, but preventing them from seizing control. A "peace treaty," if you'd like. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 05:20:14
Player: "Okay, I'll be a 1,000HD antediluvian wyrm, max level every class, with every wondrous item in the book!"
DM (Ao): "Sure. You fall on your sword and die." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 02:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Didn't the original SpellJammer "erupt" from inside a crystal sphere, shattering it in the process? I guess that makes it sort of parasitic like the Alien series.
Ugh...I've been infected with SmallJammers! (And yes, they're called SmallJammers, that's not a typo.)
Good Hunting!
Indeed. Which makes me wonder... The Spelljammer breaks a lot of rules in Spelljammer and regular D&D canon, like breaking a sphere or the fact that gods can't really say anything about it. What if this is because the Spelljammer is the last remnants of the overdeity and/or the pantheon of that shattered sphere? An explanation along those lines would explain a lot...
Intriguingly, I've considered the origin of the Spelljammer along somewhat similar lines.
What if the Spelljammer were some type of divine weapon [that has obviously forgotten it's primary purpose {maybe because it was activated too early?}] forged by the fallen overdeity/pantheon of the shattered sphere? A last-ditch attempt to strike back at the enemy of the overdeity/pantheon/crystal sphere, perhaps?
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 01:08:09
Nice. 
What if Overgods are actually trapped within their domains, like prisons? Like the Titans of Greek mythology, they may have done something in the distant past, and now their punishment is to be Spheric Guardians.
Then the Spelljammer would be "the one that got away".
It would explain why gods can't effect it - the bubble around the ship would be like a Sphere in-miniature, and basically, the Overgod-sentience within can still ban deities from its Sphere. Its like a portable Godwall
I like it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 00:16:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Didn't the original SpellJammer "erupt" from inside a crystal sphere, shattering it in the process? I guess that makes it sort of parasitic like the Alien series.
Ugh...I've been infected with SmallJammers! (And yes, they're called SmallJammers, that's not a typo.)
Good Hunting!
Indeed. Which makes me wonder... The Spelljammer breaks a lot of rules in Spelljammer and regular D&D canon, like breaking a sphere or the fact that gods can't really say anything about it. What if this is because the Spelljammer is the last remnants of the overdeity and/or the pantheon of that shattered sphere? An explanation along those lines would explain a lot... |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 22:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Didn't the original SpellJammer "erupt" from inside a crystal sphere, shattering it in the process? I guess that makes it sort of parasitic like the Alien series.
Ugh...I've been infected with SmallJammers! (And yes, they're called SmallJammers, that's not a typo.)
Good Hunting! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 18:31:05
However, we do not know if Primordials have power outside of the Crystal Sphere they are known in - and deities sometimes do, which means it is theoretically possibility for primordials to have this ability as well.
Ao has never demonstrated he has power beyond his sphere, and if anything, what little canon we have on him infers he does not. For instance, The Godwall may have been something attached to the outside of Realmspace's Sphere, and it could have been Ao's 'master' that removed it (which is why it took so long to be removed - Ao had no control over it - and his master only became aware of it when his attention shifted to Toril).
Have any primordials been described as multi-spheric powers? I know they were on Abeir, but from what little we have to go on, Abeir is located within Realmspace, just out-of-sync with it.
I personally think that there are various tiers within the primordial structure, just as there are within the deific echelons (even mortals have them in 4e!) This means that, theoretically, most primordials could be of lower stature then Ao, but a few could be more powerful. Ao himself could be a Primordial, who's domain is Realmspace, wherein he has absolute power. As we learned from Mystra (amongst others), a power is most vulnerable within its own domain (and also most powerful - balance at its finest), which means it should be possible for Ao to be 'hurt' within Realmspace by a being of equal or greater stature.
Or Atropus could just swing-by and start nibbling on his sphere. 
Hmph.. interesting thought just occurred to me - if a crystal sphere is the 'body' of an Overgod, could there be a 'disease' it could get? Is that one cracked sphere we have in canon the result of some sort of creature or 'infection' that feeds upon Overgods?
If we can have an Undead World, why not some sort of uber-virus that infects spheres?
Or would that be us?
On a related (to the OP) topic, could the World Serpent have been the original world of Abeir-Toril, and it was shattered when the world was sundered (and split-off into Abeir)? If so, would there be an over-deity or primordial for that world, a Chauntea/Earthmother figure, that could possibly re-combine and reform the original world?
Theres your 5e hook right there. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 17:10:39
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Or that aboleths from Bruce Cordell's novels
Ao has a say who or what can enter his Crystal Sphere. His allowing Xxiphu to do so suggests he's not threatened by the Eldest nor the whole Abolethic Sovereignty. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 16:43:35
Maybe shadevari
Or that aboleths from Bruce Cordell's novels |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 14:54:55
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Ao only feared Cyric
I don't think so.
As for the primordials, I think fear is not the word. Worry may be more appropriate. If the primordials are loose and wreck havoc in Ao's domain, the overgod's hands would be full, no doubt. But he'd manage. He's an overgod, so he must have a million contingencies only he and he alone knows. Besides, to overthrow an overgod, you must be an overgod yourself. Or a Super-Overgod. Or a council of overgods. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 14:20:31
Ao seems to have been actually been entirely emotionless, aside from lashing out with momentary anger and blinding Tyr, later expressing a sort of impatient annoyance or haughty disregard in Waterdeep. For the most part, Ao's been as indifferent towards Cyric as to any other god - he certainly has little to fear from any the gods aside from them all simultaneously suicidally abandoning their portfolios and thus casting the Realms into extreme imbalance. |
| Kno |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 11:42:07
Ao only feared Cyric |
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