| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 15:49:53
I haven't been keeping up with dark elves for a while now. Can anyone bring me up to date on 4th edition developments?
I've heard some rumblings about color-coding alignments, so that good drow turn brown and are called somthing else. Did this ever come to pass? I haven't noticed Drizzt losing melonin, so I'm guessing it did not. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| RedneckBadgerLord |
Posted - 17 Aug 2011 : 03:11:08
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
::shakes head::
Oy.
Oy gevalt, even.
Indeed, my sentiments exactly. Mazeltov if you plan to write them, because no one can figure out the situation with elves as a whole, much less the drow.
It makes very little sense. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 17:37:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...I didn't like the characters of the Spider Queen books (nor the plot). I particularly hated Halisstra for her goddess-of-the-week flip-flopping.
There is no reason for me to read these books, other than completeness -- and that's a goal I abandoned years ago.
Thank you, Wooly. That actually answers a question that I kept on meaning to ask here at the 'Keep.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 10:45:45
quote:
Originally posted by Brin
Hope you guys who didn't want to read the series have since then. I've heard bad things about it from my friends but it is one of my favorite series... Except for Halisstra... She made me want to commit murder.
I have not, and it's a trend I plan to continue. I like the drow pantheon the way it was, and I didn't like the characters of the Spider Queen books (nor the plot). I particularly hated Halisstra for her goddess-of-the-week flip-flopping.
There is no reason for me to read these books, other than completeness -- and that's a goal I abandoned years ago. |
| Brin |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 06:19:01
I don't know if anyone still cares about this, but I was actually looking to see if anyone had ever argued on why Drizzt hadn't been transformed in their ritual. And after reading through this I felt a loss at people not liking the Lady Penitent series... Anyways I figured I'd clear up the ritual's nonsense. The ritual affected all Drow lacking in the Wendoni taint, this affected Ellistrae's Drow because they undergo a "redemption" that purifies their blood of the taint. Supposedly the pure bloods were the screw ups of the Drow that turned out inexplicably good aligned. Not all of them were good because some of them turn evil due to the environment but these ones would tend to be a little nicer than the rest. Hence House Melarn freeing slaves and falling in love (Ryld and the Deep Gnome). I don't recall if the ritual brought the new non-drow to the surface or not, but if not we can all assume they died shortly after since they'd have no darkvision and what Drow would pass up an opportunity like that?
Also as to the faerzress I would consider it no more an inclination than any man-made drug we have. Some people can overcome especially if the need be great. If I recall though Lolth blessed the Drow with their abilities so they would have the edge underground so why not go down? Anyways thousands of years later the Drow would remain down there due to their superior magical armaments, their abilities, and propaganda. The horrors of the surface world were used highly in Drow propaganda and if I recall Mrs. Cunningham's realm changing ritual to allow Drow on the surface was kept largely under wraps in the Underdark.
Hope you guys who didn't want to read the series have since then. I've heard bad things about it from my friends but it is one of my favorite series... Except for Halisstra... She made me want to commit murder. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 23:46:54
Awww, feel free to come back if you have more questions! (I'm a big fan, and thanks for friend-ing me on FB!) |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 13:14:15
Thanks for the update. I'm going to unsubscribe to the thread now and go about my business. :) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 10:58:32
quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
Drizzt is walking a fine line with his Alignment since Spellplague. Jarlaxle notices things going on internally with Drizzt now, as he saw with Entreri in The Sellswords series. Entreri went from LE to CN. Jarlaxle is disturbed to see Drizzt being more Unaligned than Good. 
I don't think Drizzt can be a reference to this yet.
The only reference I can find, and mind you I don't know how valid people would say it is, was featured in Dungeon #171 in an articled titled Campaign Workshop, Hero Battle: Drizzt where a sort of show-down between Drizzt and Guen against the PCs for so-and-so reason. That article has his alignment as Unaligned. But contrary to that is the fact that the Character Builder had his Alignment stated as Good. I'd have to believe the Dungeon article is a more valid source than the CB IMO. |
| Andrekan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 09:28:14
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I haven't been keeping up with dark elves for a while now. Can anyone bring me up to date on 4th edition developments?
I've heard some rumblings about color-coding alignments, so that good drow turn brown and are called somthing else. Did this ever come to pass? I haven't noticed Drizzt losing melonin, so I'm guessing it did not.
Drizzt is walking a fine line with his Alignment since Spellplague. Jarlaxle notices things going on internally with Drizzt now, as he saw with Entreri in The Sellswords series. Entreri went from LE to CN. Jarlaxle is disturbed to see Drizzt being more Unaligned than Good.
I don't think Drizzt can be a reference to this yet. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 07:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Too bad all the 'Bonds' couldn't meet like 'Doctor' from Dr. Who, that would be so awesome....
I'm ecstatic over the rumours about a possible "The Eleven Doctors" novelisation supposedly coming in early 2012. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 06:24:57
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why I said Elaine has the option to write her either way, since there is an 'out' through Eilistraee worship, and we know of at least one other (rather famous) drow that worships BOTH of the goddesses in question here (which means it not only is possible, but its been done before).
-Hence why, since there's an infinite number of future possibilities, we can only take facts as we know them as of right now and extrapolate from there. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 06:03:46
Drizzt, Jarlaxle, and Liriel- THAT would be a most amusing tale!! (Somehow, I'm picturing something where the two guys are fighting over her, in a very comic sort of way- with Drizzt as the straight-man, of course.) |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:48:36
catie brie dead......not entirely sure of taht either... |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:40:00
I'm never entirely sure of that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:13:41
Ah, but Cattie-Brie is dead, and the world is a different place.
You remember when Sean Connery absolutely swore he'd NEVER do another James Bond movie?
Years later we got Never Say Never Again. 
Which just so happen to come out the same year as the final Roger Moore movie as well.
Too bad all the 'Bonds' couldn't meet like 'Doctor' from Dr. Who, that would be so awesome....
What were we talking about again?  |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:08:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The more I hear about the events of the Lady Penitent trilogy, the less I want to read it. From just about everything I've heard about it, some of the events -- particularly what happened to the drow race -- are quite problematic.
YMMV, but it's actually not that bad. The explanations hang together well enough that it didn't leave me smacking my head into a wall. In fact, you could even use some of Liriel's eariler actions into explaining why things have happened the way they have. The Draehow curse is, after all, a curse. There's no reason why it couldn't be lifted and the penintent trilogy doesn't lift the curse off all drow anyway. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:02:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, for the Drizzt/Liriel meeting fans, we do have this (obviously not canon) bit Elaine offered a while back:
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
This is probably as good a time as any to re-post what has become my standard response to a should-Drizzt-meet-Liriel question:
Liriel: (Oo! Cute little drow toyboy! Thank you, Eilistraee, goddess of the butt-neckid moonlit dance.)
Drizzt: (Danger! Matron-in-the-making! Strengthen me, Mielikki, whose unicorn favors the chaste and virtuous.) ::draws his two scimitars::
Liriel: ::sniffs:: "Put away the cutlery, honey, and take a look at THESE twins..."
::At this inopportune moment, Catti-brie walks in, and the ensuing catfight makes the season three showdown between Buffy and Faith look like a sorority tea party.::
I would pay good money to see that! |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 19:40:38
That's the one I was referring to, yeah. I wasn't sure where it was hiding, though.
The one reason I would enjoy reading a Liriel/Drizzt cross (aside from the fact that I'll read anything Elaine writes), would be to see just how much fun Liriel would have embarrassing the straight-laced Drizzt. Fortunately, Elaine already wrote an entire trilogy featuring two such characters. So I guess it's time to reread Halruaa when I get home. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 18:29:17
Well, for the Drizzt/Liriel meeting fans, we do have this (obviously not canon) bit Elaine offered a while back:
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
This is probably as good a time as any to re-post what has become my standard response to a should-Drizzt-meet-Liriel question:
Liriel: (Oo! Cute little drow toyboy! Thank you, Eilistraee, goddess of the butt-neckid moonlit dance.)
Drizzt: (Danger! Matron-in-the-making! Strengthen me, Mielikki, whose unicorn favors the chaste and virtuous.) ::draws his two scimitars::
Liriel: ::sniffs:: "Put away the cutlery, honey, and take a look at THESE twins..."
::At this inopportune moment, Catti-brie walks in, and the ensuing catfight makes the season three showdown between Buffy and Faith look like a sorority tea party.::
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:54:49
I think the closest we'll get is where she "heard" of a surface drow during Lirial's stay in on the Sword Coast (though I cant remember the novel off-hand).
Even if no crossover is possible, more info or even a short story would be nice about her current doings or location, etc. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 15:53:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about a prequel?
If she met Jarlaxle, is there any chance she could have met Drizzt?
Not a full novel, but a short story in one of the anthologies would be cool.
As for them meeting, Drizzt knew at least three of Mystra's chosen (perhaps five), and Liriel posed as another and lives next door to yet another (almost all of whom are sisters!)
Having them meet isn't all that much of a stretch. Maybe they were both invited to Qilue's 300th birthday party or some-such.
On the other hand, having them just-miss-each-other might be even better, from a fanboi-perspective. That sort of 'almost' scenario usually goes over big.
Nope. Not going to happen.
I'm not going to write a Drizzt/Liriel story or even a near miss. Bob has stated that he won't either. I suppose WotC could get a third writer to do it, but what would be the point?
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 15:25:05
How about a prequel?
If she met Jarlaxle, is there any chance she could have met Drizzt?
Not a full novel, but a short story in one of the anthologies would be cool.
As for them meeting, Drizzt knew at least three of Mystra's chosen (perhaps five), and Liriel posed as another and lives next door to yet another (almost all of whom are sisters!)
Having them meet isn't all that much of a stretch. Maybe they were both invited to Qilue's 300th birthday party or some-such.
On the other hand, having them just-miss-each-other might be even better, from a fanboi-perspective. That sort of 'almost' scenario usually goes over big. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:49:09
You know, I could've seen the two of them meet for a brief short story in something funny like the Realms of Comedy or in a Realms anthology. But a whole stand alone novel or series, nah the two just wouldn't work out properly I think.
I would love to read about her again though Elaine and I hope that at some future date you plan on shining a little light on how she's fared over the last 104+ years . |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:38:08
Good. And I've liked the various creative ways you've shot down such ideas in the past, Elaine. Glad to see that some things about the Realms haven't changed. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 10:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I will second a Liriel/Drizzt romance. I think a co-authored novel by Elaine and RAS would be off-the-hook. I think both characters deserve a little happiness at this point... its been a century....
Nope. Not gonna happen. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 07:06:34
Which is why I said Elaine has the option to write her either way, since there is an 'out' through Eilistraee worship, and we know of at least one other (rather famous) drow that worships BOTH of the goddesses in question here (which means it not only is possible, but its been done before).
And by the same token, as an author, she is one of those people who can make the kinds of changes you say haven't been made (yet). She can just say Liriel changed, without even giving us a reason (although Elaine doesn't usually roll that way), or just say Eilistraee appeared to Liriel (shortly before her demise) and begged her to accept her as her patron (if only temporally). That's a bit heavy-handed, but certainly less-so then many other new pieces of fluff that have been back-filled into the setting with the advent of 4e.
She could have even been dancing at an Eilistraee ceremony in the moonlight with other drow when the ritual hit, and was 'caught-up' in the magic. You yourself stated that she associates with them, and so long as all the conditions were met at the precise moment the ritual kicked-in, BINGO.
Whatever - I'm sure Elaine can figure-out the proper way to handle it, if she so desires to change her.
The real question I want an answer to is when are the green elves going to turn green? Drizzt should be green, if for no other reason then because "it's not easy being green". 
And I will second a Liriel/Drizzt romance. I think a co-authored novel by Elaine and RAS would be off-the-hook. I think both characters deserve a little happiness at this point... its been a century....
With maybe a preface by Ed... yeah... that would sell like hotcakes... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 04:49:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why Elaine remains one our all-time favorite FR authors. rather then try to smash 'square' lore into a round hole with a bigger hammer', she delicately witles-away at it until it is a perfect fit.
I agree - the explanation for the changes in Drow magic should be exemplary to others on how to handle such inconsistencies - KUDOS.
-Absolutely. There's a reason why, over the years, plenty of authors, editors, designers, and everyone else have heard all kind of crap, but the stuff directed towards Elaine are always positive in nature.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now I remember why I used to get so frustrated during our 'discussions'. You're nearly as long-winded as I am. 
AND.... you just proved my point.
Do we know what happened to Liriel five minutes after the trilogy*? A LOT of time passed between the start of 3e and the end of 3e (13 years?) Why couldn't she have begun venerating Eilistraee in that time?
like I said, if I can think of an 'out', I'm sure someone of Elaine's talents could do even better. She can write it either way (she can even say a goddess appeared to her and gave her a choice).
And since the artist who did the covers of Elaine's books made her brown, I would think she should be one of the 'redeemed'. 
*I am aware that there is a Liriel story somewhere I haven't (unfortunately) read yet, but even so, there is a classic example of a drow female (Qilué Veladorn) worshiping more then one goddess - and one of those was Eilistraee (and she was the Chosen of another!!!) The Realms are not Earth, and worshiping more then one deity is far more commonplace then authors (and most designers) ever allow. That's built right into the setting from the beginning - a point many seem to have forgotten.
-The rule that's in effect for everything else in the 4e Forgotten Realms is in effect here: Unless we know specifically that it's changed, we should assume that it stayed the same. The ritual took place in 1,378 DR, and given that we know circa 1,372 DR, Liriel was a priestess of Mystra, and it would be another ten years or so before Mystra died, necessitating a new primary patron (of which Eilistraee probably would be her first choice)...It's 100% plausible that Liriel, at some point between 1,372 DR and 1,378 DR, she rejected Mystra, stopped being a priestess of her faith, and embraced Eilistraee as her primary patroness. Equally as plausible as Liriel going back to the primary worship of Eilistraee would be her going to Shaundakul's, since she is always running around and adventuring and such, and he is the patron of adventuring and such. Sadly, equally plausible would be that she died somewhere, before 1,378 DR.
-But, the facts as we know them are, Liriel was not a member of Eilistraee's clergy (though she certainly associated with them, counted on many of them as friends, and most likely continued to do so post-Windwalker, and she had "Wendonai's taint" in her blood. She doesn't fit the criteria. Can that first qualification change? Certainly. But, until something says that it changed, it hasn't changed.
-This one is an oldie, but a goodie: big ol' link!
Mod edit: Cast shrinky link |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 19:33:14
Which is why Elaine remains one our all-time favorite FR authors. Rather then try to smash 'square' lore into a round hole with a bigger hammer', she delicately whittles-away at it until it is a perfect fit.
I agree - the explanation for the changes in Drow magic should be exemplary to others on how to handle such inconsistencies - KUDOS.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-A Drow could have been a Lolthite through-and-though, and still be transformed. The transformation is contingent upon one of two things, that need not be related: Pure Miyaritaari blood, or worshiping Eilistraee (if the voices of the Kiira are to believed, and the sava-board epilogue are believed to be accurate in their implying that Eilistraee's followers transformed). A Drow with the proper bloodline need not be a worshiper of Eilistraee, and a worshiper of Eilistraee need not (apparently) be of the proper bloodline. If you have a High Priestess of Lolth who, by random coincidence, happens to have pure, untainted Miyeritaari blood, she'd suddenly find herself transformed after the ritual was performed. And, it'd suck to be her.
Hmphh.
Now I remember why I used to get so frustrated during our 'discussions'. You're nearly as long-winded as I am.
AND.... you just proved my point.
Do we know what happened to Liriel five minutes after the trilogy*? A LOT of time passed between the start of 3e and the end of 3e (13 years?) Why couldn't she have begun venerating Eilistraee in that time?
like I said, if I can think of an 'out', I'm sure someone of Elaine's talents could do even better. She can write it either way (she can even say a goddess appeared to her and gave her a choice).
And since the artist who did the covers of Elaine's books made her brown, I would think she should be one of the 'redeemed'.
*I am aware that there is a Liriel story somewhere I haven't (unfortunately) read yet, but even so, there is a classic example of a drow female (Qilué Veladorn) worshiping more then one goddess - and one of those was Eilistraee (and she was the Chosen of another!!!) The Realms are not Earth, and worshiping more then one deity is far more commonplace then authors (and most designers) ever allow. That's built right into the setting from the beginning - a point many seem to have forgotten. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 18:43:55
quote:
When you're writing RPG-related fiction, you ignore the rules at your peril. Conversely, if you contradict yourself, you're screwing up the continuity. Option 3 was the only one that made sense to me.
And I still say it was *brilliantly* done! |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 18:41:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
[-As illustrated in novels/sourcebooks that were written beforehand, and were Realms dated before 1376-1377 DR, when the events of the novel take place, various Drow retain their abilities to cast Darkness and Levitate, their darkvision, their magic resistances, and the various other things that make Drow Drow, to varying degrees. Drow of the Underdark, for 2e, says that they lose all of their abilities when coming to the surface. The FRCS for 3e allows them to retain such abilities. Luckily, Windwalker- I said Daughter of the Drowbefore, but I meant this book!- gives us a nice reason to explain away some of the rule vestiges that caused wonky things to happen in that regard.
That was a choice of necessity. The first two Starlight & Shadow books were written with 2e rules. When 3e did away with most of the restrictions on drow magic, the motivation driving the first two books--Liriel's desire to go with the surface with her drow magic intact--was cut off at the knees.
This left me with three choices: 1) write Windwalker as if the rules hadn't changed to maintain internal consistency within the trilogy, 2) write the book according to the new rules without explanation or apology, or 3) write the rule change into the story.
When you're writing RPG-related fiction, you ignore the rules at your peril. Conversely, if you contradict yourself, you're screwing up the continuity. Option 3 was the only one that made sense to me.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 17:59:54
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I never saw it as a physical containment- just a compulsion to remain in places where their abilities worked fully, which of course would dictate remaining in the Underdark. Very few drow seem to have been able to resist the need to keep their powers intact, and thus they stayed below. They are drawn to it in much the same way as an addict would be drawn to a bad neighborhood where he knows he can find his poison of choice. It's not so much that they were contained- they just didn't WANT to leave those regions of faer'zress. Although the bug zapper analogy works to some degree as well, but it's more psychological than physical, and I believe Storm of the Dead stated that. They didn't shake it off because they never realized the compulsion was there- they simply thought their desire to remain where their powers were strongest was natural.
-As illustrated in novels/sourcebooks that were written beforehand, and were Realms dated before 1376-1377 DR, when the events of the novel take place, various Drow retain their abilities to cast Darkness and Levitate, their darkvision, their magic resistances, and the various other things that make Drow Drow, to varying degrees. Drow of the Underdark, for 2e, says that they lose all of their abilities when coming to the surface. The FRCS for 3e allows them to retain such abilities. Luckily, Windwalker- I said Daughter of the Drowbefore, but I meant this book!- gives us a nice reason to explain away some of the rule vestiges that caused wonky things to happen in that regard. Drow magical abilities have never specifically been the byproduct of faerzress', until seemingly now.
-Q'arlynd's ancestor within the kiira says specifically that the High Magic ritual that "created" faerzress' compelled the Drow to them. Compel is a strong verb, that has more than just psychological connotations of just wanting something, realizing or not realizing, consciously. All of the definitions are connotative with being forced, realizing or not realizing, consciously. |
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