| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 21:03:31
Hello.. Just a quick question.
I was reading about this guy, who is like tremendously powerful. But I was thinking if anyone could inform me about how powerful. Is he like Manshoon powerful, Larloch powerful or Srinshee powerful, or is he something even more than that.
Im trying to understand exactly what he is!
Thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 19:19:28
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Unfortunately Karsus didn't heed the Terraseer's advice, which lead to his folly.
Arrogance knows no bounds. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 10:06:05
Hmmmm...I have this big idea that Karsus was originally a binder and not a wizard.....and his vestige was Amon...Maybe that's the reason why Karsus hates Amon up to this day. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jan 2011 : 01:59:47
Karsus as a character has a lot of potential that unfortunately has not been realized, or maybe has been but simply for unknown reasons was not seen in print. Had he been relatively sane, most probably, MORE and more FR fans would have favored him...liked him more than they do Larloch. If he hadn't succumbed to madness, Netheril might still be standing now. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 23:19:28
BTW: Karsus, seems to be like an opposite of a wizard. From the way he casts spells, and perform rituals, it was not wizardlylike. I don't think he worships any god of magic. It could be possible that he was one of the first Binders (a different class from a wizard) of the Netheril. Gaining access to true magic, instead of magic. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 23:14:55
Unfortunately Karsus didn't heed the Terraseer's advice, which lead to his folly. Which proved him wrong. While Karsus was so powerful, his overconfidence seemed to be the end of him. Let's look at it this way, the Bae'tith knows how to cast spells that can steal a gods divinity, but they didn't perform the spell because of its consequences (which Karsus failed to see).
I even consider Candlemas' solution against the battle with the Phaerrim much better compared to what Karsus had in mind. (Candlemas advised him to use time-travel to defeat the Phaerimm BTW)
Karsus doesn't think of steps, nor does he think of the consequences. His adviser viewed his methods all destructive. He could whip out a time travel spell as if he was mentioning the English alphabet. Maybe Karsus was a bit of a radical thinker. But he is his own downfall. His flying city was in ruins before the fall of the Netheril, full of revolts and people dying from hunger, and he seemed to be blind of all of it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 22:58:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Even without their aid, one way or another, Karsus wouuld still have learned of it. He couldn't be called the greatest archwizard for nothing.
And shouldn't. 
Allistair will surely disagree. =)
I bet Karsus had enough time to waste to figure it out. The dread of phaerimm's life drain spell, as I understand, would take millenia to fully bring the empire down. Karsus needed less than that, I think. He was able to travel back to the past and into the future, so I believe he could gather enough aid to save his empire---in time (and ironically, destroy it, too, in time). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 18:39:06
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Even without their aid, one way or another, Karsus wouuld still have learned of it. He couldn't be called the greatest archwizard for nothing.
And shouldn't.
Seriously, though, natural talent can only take you so far. Without an established knowledgebase to build on, I don't think Karsus would have been able to do all that he did. He'd've had to waste time figuring out the intermediate steps, instead of just jumping to the end. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 15:26:28
Even without their aid, one way or another, Karsus wouuld still have learned of it. He couldn't be called the greatest archwizard for nothing. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 12:46:55
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You made it sound as though the Terraseer "taught" the Netherese magic, or so it seems to me. Even without his influence, the Netherese, upon the birth of the archwizards and their rise to power, would have still been haughty enough to defy the gods, to view them as mere wizards possessing unique and potent powers.
It could be possible, that: Due to the fact that the Netherese didn't create the Netherscrolls, they haven't realized how to fully master its use.
There were some instances where the Terraseer (an original architect) told the Netherese's most powerful wizard (Karsus) something he had no knowledge of yet. (Mystryl going to face a challenge in -345 DR).
WHich creates a fact that Arthindol had more knowledge in magic compared to Karsus.
So, if the most powerful wizard of the Netherese was bested in lore by an original architect of the NEtherscrolls, it could mean that the Bae'tith proved to be more knowledgeable compared to them. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 06:13:16
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I think you are confusing the Ba'etith with all sarrukh. Of course the sarrukh were not kindly. But the Ba'etith do not represent the sarrukh. The Ba'etith had sarrukh members. But the Ba'etith had batrachi and aearee members over time. The purpose of the Ba'etith was to develop, preserve and spread knowledge of magic. They did not seek to keep it solely for the sarrukh. In that sense they were indeed a charitable organization. Magic boosters if you will. A magical fraternity not unlike the Rotarians or the Shriners.
The agenda of the Ba'etith is well in-line with Mystryl/Mystra's agenda to spread and encourage the use of magic. And I somewhat suspect it has not died out as an institution but may have survived to this day, though perhaps under another name.
Can you think of any secret organizations run by chosen of Mystra that might fit the bill?
It's odd, but I had always seen the Coiled Cabal as some sort of an offshoot of the Ba'etith; perhaps not a direct intellectual or magical 'descendant' of the fabled loremasters, but more a child's imitation of their elders' work.
There are any number of groups who make it their business to preserve ancient magical learning, and others who work to spread new lore; there are a handful that have tried a syncretic approach, blending numerous styles, and others that concern themselves with the constand pushing back of the boundaries of theory; but only the Ba'etith have managed to do all of the above simultaneously, with stunning success and unrivaled longevity.
The only other group which has managed to preserve a magical tradition of an 'elder age' in a successful, sustained, and reasonably widespread fashion that springs to mind are the Wychlaren; it is perhaps fitting that the lore they have preserved is the only ancient (possibly pre-Weave) form of magic which we know to have been largely omitted from the Nether Scrolls (since they are the inheritors of the Rashemi lore, which was strongly influenced by the Imaskari, who were themselves schooled by the Fey- and Fey magics were, IIRC, omitted from the Golden Skins of the World Serpent). Also fitting that, totally unlike the Ba'etith, they hoard their lore, and fight tooth and nail to keep it confined to their ranks.
Who did you have in mind, Gray? The Chosen? You could certainly make a case for it, but I tend not to really think of them as a 'group'; more like lightly herded cats  .
NOTE: If this is incoherent babble, I apologize; the painkillers kicked in somewhere after the first para and my post seems to have wandered.  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 05:33:13
I think you are confusing the Ba'etith with all sarrukh. Of course the sarrukh were not kindly. But the Ba'etith do not represent the sarrukh. The Ba'etith had sarrukh members. But the Ba'etith had batrachi and aearee members over time. The purpose of the Ba'etith was to develop, preserve and spread knowledge of magic. They did not seek to keep it solely for the sarrukh. In that sense they were indeed a charitable organization. Magic boosters if you will. A magical fraternity not unlike the Rotarians or the Shriners.
The agenda of the Ba'etith is well in-line with Mystryl/Mystra's agenda to spread and encourage the use of magic. And I somewhat suspect it has not died out as an institution but may have survived to this day, though perhaps under another name.
Can you think of any secret organizations run by chosen of Mystra that might fit the bill? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 00:13:22
You made it sound as though the Terraseer "taught" the Netherese magic, or so it seems to me. Even without his influence, the Netherese, upon the birth of the archwizards and their rise to power, would have still been haughty enough to defy the gods, to view them as mere wizards possessing unique and potent powers. |
| Therise |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 20:05:11
What if the sarrukh viewed their gods merely as powerful entities and not as "gods" in the way we think of that word?
And somehow, through the Terraseer, that philosophy was translated to the Netherese mage upper class?
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| spadehammerfist |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:46:21
I'm not sure I can agree with the Ba'etith as a benevolent organisation with Mystryl as their patron (even as a scaly perception of her). There is nothing benevolent in the culture of the Sarrukh! Remember, they had an aspect of the diverged World Serpent responsible for them being able to accept non-scalykind to even be sacrificed in the same way as scalykind! All other races were either after them or creatures they themselves created. They were there first and other races like the Aeree and Batrachi became Creator Races after, i.e. learning from the Sarrukh, with the Ba'etith being the organisation that bridged those races. I see this organisation as being controlled by the Sarrukh, going to each successive race with technological, mystical and magical knowledge, but as crumbs from the masters' table, not the answers to everything. These 'crumbs' were deliberately given to encourage certain steps in knowledge, maybe even restricting these lesser races to areas the Sarrukh wanted to research themselves. The Batrachi got to research aquatic and limbo dwelling creatures; the Aeree got to research aerial and anti-dragon creatures; but then the greatest find of the Sarrukh has been humans, who they can give successive 'projects' to. Due to the humans' adaptability and curiousity, they are the perfect guinea pigs. The Sarrukh has just changed the way they control lesser creatures, that's all...
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 17:17:48
Yes, the sarrukh god was the World Serpent. However, that doesn't mean that a) a select group of sarrukh mages might not have adopted Mystryl as their patrons, a heretical secret cult if you will; or b) that the World Serpent was not a gestalt deity embodying Chauntea, Mystryl, Shar, Selūne and others as a unified personality, perhaps similar to the concept of the Adama. I actually favor that idea myself. We know of lots of scalyfolk gods that started out as aspects of the World Serpent and fragmented off into distinct, separate entities.
Mystryl was only the human conception of the god of magic. To the Fey she was probably known as Lurue. To the aquatic creator race she may have been some kind of mystic silver jellyfish whose tendrils are the strands of the Weave. To the Aearee she may have been a silver crane or ibis, or perhaps an aspect of Syranita.
Regardless, whether Mystryl reached out to the Ba'etith as a distinct entity, or as an aspect of the World Serpent, it doesn't change the fact that the Weave was real, and that she was a native goddess of Toril. As such, the Ba'etith could have had knowledge of her, would in fact most certainly have had some conception of her through their inquiries into the nature of magic, and Mystryl could easily have taught them magic, influenced them, urged them to pass on the knowledge, and even granted them powers or special magics akin to that of the Magister or her Chosen.
The Ba'etith were a forward thinking, trans-generational and trans-racial magical brotherhood. They were not sarrukh chauvinists; they spread the knowledge of magic to the Batrachi and the Aearee in turn. They arguably placed the Nether Scrolls where humans could "discover' them. They were charitable in their outlook, indicating a devotion, not to any one race or culture, but to the Art itself.
I am thoroughly convinced that the Ba'etith were doing the work of Mystryl (or the World Serpent, as they may have conceived her), and may have been early versions of Chosen or Magisters, or something along those lines. |
| creyzi4zb12 |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 15:15:53
The Sarrukh god was "The World Serpent" and not "Mystryl".
As a matter of fact, the true name of the Nether Scrolls was "Thee Golden Skins of the World Serpent", and not "The Golden Skins of Mystryl". It was the Netherese who renamed it. Thus, this fact could very much claim the notion that the Terraseer was not a chosen/exarch.
So the Netherscrolls are like a rip-off of "TGSOTWS".
Which points us to a more interesting part as to how TGSOTWS was named. It could point out that Mystryl was a part of The World Serpent/or maybe an offspring, perhaps Mystryl was the skin of the World Serpent that it shedded eons ago, Shar, Selune and the others that were created by Ao also came from the World Serpent's skin. Perhaps Ao and the World Serpent have a relationship. Let's say, the World Serpent is Ao's pet, or some kind of culture pet in which it's parts are soon going to be used to create gods. |
| spadehammerfist |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 13:18:56
I'm sorry (and I've read the Arthindol the Terraseer scroll) but I don't buy the idea that he is some kind of benign watcher or meddler like Elminster. My idea is that all the interventions and manipulations are part of a plan to return the Sarrukh to their former glory, and up to this point they have not been able to realise this goal.
It is interesting that Arthindol has been identified as one of the Kings of Oreme, perhaps there are others that have really been Sarrukh meddlers in disguise? Plus why is it necessary that the Terraseer is a rogue Lich King of Oreme, perhaps they don't just take turns in being awake but also turns in going out in the world and continuing the master plan. Also it occurs to me that they are not really asleep but dormant and fully aware of what their active compatriot is doing...
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| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 09:57:39
The Realms is already fraught with "active" uber-powerful characters. It's just right - at least for now - to keep The Teraseer taking the "Watcher's" role. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 06:33:19
Being long-lived or immortal does not automatically qualify as or require being some sort of divine Chosen.
Another Candlekeep scroll, Arthindol the Terraseer. |
| Therise |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 03:46:44
Hmm, I don't know. I really don't like the idea that anything above a certain power level is an Exarch.
With respect to Larloch, I don't like the idea of him being a former chosen of Mystryl in the same way that Elminster and company are/were Chosen of Mystra. I do kind of like my idea that Larloch could have been a different kind of Chosen, though, one representing the "Sharran half" of Mystra (where El and co. would be "Selune-side"). Or even that he's just a really immensely powerful being by his own hand.
After all, Larloch grew up in a culture that didn't really view the deities as gods in the same sense that actual worshippers believe in the gods. They believed that the deities were just immensely powerful beings. And as far as things go in the "reality" of D&D, it's hard to argue with that philosophy. Mortals have ascended, and deities do die (after a fashion), so the only real problem with Karsus' plan was that he didn't fully understand what grabbing that much power would mean (or that he really should've chosen another deity to siphon from).
As far as the Terraseer, I doubt that he was a Chosen of a scaly deity of magic or of Mystryl. Just doesn't seem to fit, either way. Granted, the Terraseer was doing exactly what Mystryl would've liked (i.e. spreading and fostering magic), but it doesn't necessarily follow that he was doing it for Her. I prefer to think that he was just a really powerful scaly in his own day, and lichdom (along with his fellow Sarrukh lich-partners) is probably just part of a really long-reaching plan that may not have been revealed even in 4E.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 02:18:35
It doesn't seem there is much about him, aside from the fact he tried to stear the Netherease, for whatever reason.
The facts are so vague ANY sort of conjecture could be done.
As for me, I think he was something similar to Larloch (yes, mentioning HIM again) and Elminster - he was THE Chosen of the goddess of magic that reigned during 'his time'.
Note that Larloch has always been at least as powerful as a demigod, and Elminster is now consider an 'Exarch' (which is the new 4e over-term for all those not-quite gods, like the Chosen). Following this line of reasoning, that means the Terraseer should be an Exarch too (heck, he is FAR older then most gods!) Also, as a point-of-order, Chosen being 'demi-powers' is nothing new - Elminster is specifically called a 'demi-god' in 1e Kara-Tur lore.
Anyhow, I'm not sure what, if anything, he would 'be up to now'. If I am right, and all three are ex-Chosen of magical goddesses (and there might even be several more out there we are unaware of), then each could somehow have 'earned' a special type of unique immortality.
They are 'Watchers'.
Might seem a bit 'far fetched', but seriously, Elminster is the ONLY mortal Ao ever bothered to be willing to have a conversation with. We are talking about the God of gods, having a very plain conversation with The old Sage. That alone should lead us to believe that Elminster is more then 'just a Chosen', he is THE Chosen, and I feel Larloch and perhaps the Terraseer were his predecessors.
Now, what do you do if you have all the time in the world, but you yourself are from a time long gone? You would try to make-up for the mistakes of the past, and be sure they never happen again. Toril is important somehow in 'the greater scheme of things' in the multiverse, and it needs to be 'protected' - sometimes from itself - at all costs.
THAT is what I think the Terraseer was and is doing, and probably Larloch... and maybe Elminster soon enough. we shall see with that one.  |
| spadehammerfist |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 09:24:29
hello, is there anyone out there?
the Terraseer is someone who really fascinates me, does anyone have any info on what is happening with him and his mates these days? How were they affected by the SpellBlueFireStormDebacle? I actually think that their understanding of magic is so total (Be'atith (sp) and Nether Scrolls...) that either that they already knew how to adapt, or they had adapted to Mystra and the Weave in the first place. Maybe now without those constraints they can return to magics they remember from ancient times!? |
| spadehammerfist |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 21:09:42
I don't think this topic has quite stayed on track, don't you all love talking about Larloch a lot. Personally, I think that the story of the Terraseer is much more interesting. Only one of the 50 Sarruhk liches of Oreme, who used to rule half the world and seemed to have influenced the development of the Netheril empire, ensured that certain parts of it survived by warning them (including I suppose Larloch), and seems to have been instrumental in the direction of magic in the Realms - through the Golden Skins of the World Serpent - or the Nether Scrolls as the ignorant of you. What else has this ancient plotter been involved in disguised as all sorts of people? Stirring up in the elven realms, encouraging summoning wizards in Myth Adofeor (Hellgate), etc, etc? Ideas anyone? |
| Elfinblade |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 22:58:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if living Larloch was a chosen of Mystryl? Could he have become a Lich after Karsus' folly? If that defies his timeline, perhaps he was given warning and became a lich so he could continue his work?
Just because he is a lich now does not preclude the fact he could have been a living Chosen of Mystryl at some point.
Maybe this is the meaning behind Tears so White - its not experiencing that which he can not have, but rather experiencing that which he has lost.
What if he was Mystryl's Elminster? What if he 'held it together' the last time the weave collapsed? This would give him a special place of honor in 'the new order'.
This is a very interesting thought Markustay. I'm totally falling in love with this notion :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 20:08:41
Not being facetious or anything, but did you read precisely what I wrote?
Ed has stated in two separate places that Larloch is doing something that elsewhere he has stated the Chosen are doing. That doesn't necessarily mean Larloch is a chosen, but it does imply they are at least working toward the same ends.
And in the Secrets of the magister, Ed specifically says that Mystra considers the Road of Stars & Shadows (Toril's portal-network) "Distortions in the Weave" (SotM, pg.127).
Distortions - like a bubble in a tire (which are weak-spots that can 'blow-out' at any time).
Ed has lain a long road of clues for us to follow - sometimes you just have to realize its all connected to see 'the big picture'.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 03:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think it is ever said anywhere that Laroch created any portals (although he may have made a few himself). The portals that Larloch spends most of his time 'watching over' are part of The Road of Stars and Shadows, and is FAR more ancient then Netheril or Imaskar (but both have contributed to it).
Note that Ed has stated that Larloch 'appends' these portals so that they are 'augmented' in ways only he is privy to. Also note that in Elminster's Daughter the Sages of Candlekeep tell a woman that Chosen of Mystra do exactly that.
It hardly matters whether he himself created the portals, or he just stole or discovered it. The fact that he HAS these portals remains. And if they originally didn't have the capabilities to translate him to other worlds, with the kind of power he possesses and the mastery of The Art he's got, it's easy to assume that he'd long ago AUGMENTED the magical capabilities of these portals, enough to enable him to visit other worlds, learn their systems of magic, and use them for his own nefarious scheming. And as I mentioned, it's a rather plausible reason why he was in a no-scratch status when and after SP devastated Toril. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:40:37
I remember Wulgreth. A big lump of Heavy Magic landing on you from orbit will do that, I suppose. I would speculate Heavy Magic is a physical item which contains or generates a wild-magic zone, similar to your dead-magic zone stone, though I've read your posts about it containing links to or fragments of Shadow Weave, Markus. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:20:12
I don't think it is ever said anywhere that Laroch created any portals (although he may have made a few himself). The portals that Larloch spends most of his time 'watching over' are part of The Road of Stars and Shadows, and is FAR more ancient then Netheril or Imaskar (but both have contributed to it).
Note that Ed has stated that Larloch 'appends' these portals so that they are 'augmented' in ways only he is privy to. Also note that in Elminster's Daughter the Sages of Candlekeep tell a woman that Chosen of Mystra do exactly that.
The same exact thing that Ed has said Larloch does.
As for the 'Weave in my pocket' theory - it sounds pretty cool. I read somewhere just last night (SotM?) that there was a device (stones?) that could 'carry' a magic-dead zone within it, like a portable anti-magic field. In retrospect, if those dead zones are really Shadoweave, then it should be entirely possibly to do something similar with the weave.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ioulum (creator of Congenio's Pebbles aka Ioun Stones?) liched as well?
It's been ~10y since I last read through Arcane Ages: Netheril, time to skim it again I suppose. Where else is Larloch mentioned?
Three 'living' Netherease Liches: Larloch, Iouluam (NOT Ioun, who was another Netherease Archmage), and Aumvor the Undying. Note that all three used completely different methods to achieve lichdom (Iouluam merged with an Elder Brain and took the 'psionic route', and Aumvor created spells which allowed him to drain others 'lifeforce').
The Fourth is the ghost of a lich (go figure that one out): Lady Saharel, who dwells in Spellgaurd (IIRC, her ghostly existence happened in a novel - Avatar I think).
Also, Wulgreth was spontaneously transformed into a lich by Karsus, although we don't know if he was Netherease, but his Lichdom most-likely pre-dated Larloch's. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 04:03:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why guys like the Terraseer and the Sojournor are beyond 'Uber' - they have access to magical lore no-one else has, not even Chosen. Larloch can only dream of attaining that knowledge of Unearthed Arcana.
Larloch invented and placed a plethora of portals all around Toril; and it's easy to imagine that those 'unknown schemes' Ed talked about include Larloch's portals in various worlds. Hence, he must have learned other non-Torilain sources of magic and experimented with them. That's a possible explanation for his virtually unscathed status after the SP.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Maybe he builds/grows mini-Weaves in his lab and always carries a bunch around to reshape or heal the Weave as needed?
Hmm, I like that idea. If he does have mini-Weaves, I think he'd rather put them in a demiplane, pocket dimension, or some unknown unpopulated world so as not to draw any unwanted attention from not a few enemies. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 23:14:18
You're probably right; again I qualify my statement that I really don't know all that much about Larloch.
Ioulum (creator of Congenio's Pebbles aka Ioun Stones?) liched as well?
It's been ~10y since I last read through Arcane Ages: Netheril, time to skim it again I suppose. Where else is Larloch mentioned? |
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