| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 16:43:48
Read it and weep -
http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/Products/default.aspx?doc=959867200
I suppose I should be happy... we finally got the Orc Kingdom I always wanted. 
GOOD Drow and Orcs fighting from evil Dwarf and Elf oppresssion... I thought I'd never seee the day. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 20:28:44
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10013
Posted my review.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 01:48:40
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't know, I don't think the reader's value from it is diminished because it's all about the build up to this improbable situation.
I still would have prefered to be surprised. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 04:59:43
quote:
Or significantly less, since rulers often fail to live to old age.
Given Orcish Lifespan and the massive timeskip involved, unlikely.
quote:
I've started reading this novel, by the way--see my comments in the Book Club. I do agree that letting us know in the prologue that the orc kingdom would be successful and a "beacon of hope" ruins the surprise for the reader.
I don't know, I don't think the reader's value from it is diminished because it's all about the build up to this improbable situation.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 03:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
True but Obould VI is also probably middle aged.
The book says he's "young", but of course he could still be middle-aged. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 03:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Orcs have not, in recent memory, shown any signs of civilization beyond a tribal level. And they've shown little desire to advance past that level. So, I don't care who their neighbors are, and I don't care if they have magical healing. If these things weren't a factor in the past (as they obviously weren't, or we'd not be having this discussion), then they aren't a factor now.
And not only have they never shown a desire to be civilized, they've never shown any desire to suddenly be nice to their neighbors as well (ie. to trade rather than take by force).
I've started reading this novel, by the way--see my comments in the Book Club. I do agree that letting us know in the prologue that the orc kingdom would be successful and a "beacon of hope" ruins the surprise for the reader. |
| Crust |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 19:00:15
Certainly it's true that most orcs (if not all orcs) seek only to die in battle in the name of Gruumsh. It's even mentioned in the novel a couple times. Most humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. would rather NOT die in battle, so that major difference in philosophy might trump any good/evil ambiguity.
It also makes another subtle reference to our own world.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 18:02:40
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Five generations of Oboulds -- not necessarily five generations of the general orc populace.
Which could be significantly more given Obould I was Chosen of Gruumsy.
Or significantly less, since rulers often fail to live to old age. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 17:44:29
quote:
Five generations of Oboulds -- not necessarily five generations of the general orc populace.
Which could be significantly more given Obould I was Chosen of Gruumsy.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 17:24:04
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I'd say that 100 years might be 4 generations of orcs, maybe 5 -- certainly not 7.5.
I thought Orcs lived slightly less than Humans.
I think you are correct, but the Obould in the "future story" is King Obould VI, so that's five generations since Obould I.
Five generations of Oboulds -- not necessarily five generations of the general orc populace. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 16:50:42
In 2nd Orcs lived to about 40, In thrid they can live to about 80.
However that is not generally defines a generation, what does is fertility or mating patterns. IOW when a female reaches adulthood and bears children.
A human female reaches adulthood in 3.5 at age 15, the half orc at age 14, by interpolation an orc female achieves aduthood at age 14. Thus an orc generation should be a little shorter then a human generation.
As for Obould VI there are a few posible answer to get more then 5 generations. It might be all the Kings were named Obould, that 6 is just the sixth king to have that name. Even if all Kings took the name Obould it is posible one or more kings mated later then sooner. That infact one or more Kings had a son when in their 30s (prehaps a generation and a half).
As for tribal or clanish, not sure it makes much a difference. Both tend to trace blood, both can take outsiders into the group. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 16:42:07
True but Obould VI is also probably middle aged.
So there could be a sixth generation newly born and perhaps even Orc cubs.
|
| Xysma |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 15:47:25
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I'd say that 100 years might be 4 generations of orcs, maybe 5 -- certainly not 7.5.
I thought Orcs lived slightly less than Humans.
I think you are correct, but the Obould in the "future story" is King Obould VI, so that's five generations since Obould I. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 05:26:01
I'd say that 100 years might be 4 generations of orcs, maybe 5 -- certainly not 7.5.
I thought Orcs lived slightly less than Humans.
Also, knowing how to work metal does not imply civilization. It's a skill. It's certainly more commonly found among civilized races, but just because they know how to do it, it doesn't mean they act civilized. And there's no indication that orcs developed this skill themselves -- I find it far more likely to think they learned it from some other race; most likely from enslaved smiths.
Dude, Orcs aren't stupid by any stretch of the imagination. They just follow a God that believes that they should kill every living thing on the planet but fellow Orcs. They arrived from the Orcgate wars presumably from a planet that they either originated from or had conquered. Given they nearly trounced Thay and Mulhorand, I'm pretty likely sure they have their own skills.
Also given their war mounts, Orcs also no doubt practice animal husbandry and some degree of engineering to carve out their caves. They practice widespread slavery because they're a warrior culture like the Spartans (real life ones not the 300 kind) and disdain any labor but war, that doesn't mean they're incapable of it.
Orcs have not, in recent memory, shown any signs of civilization beyond a tribal level. And they've shown little desire to advance past that level. So, I don't care who their neighbors are, and I don't care if they have magical healing. If these things weren't a factor in the past (as they obviously weren't, or we'd not be having this discussion), then they aren't a factor now.
Actually, not all Orcs are Tribal anymore than humans are Tribal. I point out that the Orcs of Zhentil Keep are an organized soldiery force that operates in the same manner as Hobgoblins for the most part.
We also have evidence of Orc Kingdoms in the past in Faerun.
Apples and oranges. The barbarians of the Dales may eschew civilization, but they are part of a civilized race. They can easily adapt to civilization, especially since they hail from and are kin to civilized peoples. They are a lot more civilized than orcs, even if there are some few similarities in their lifestyles.
We're now getting into "Drow kill their twins in the womb" territory here where fantasy flavor goes against the idea they're just another race. R.A. Salvatore certainly believes Orcs are just another species by the way he's portraying them. I confess, Wooley, I tend to use Orcs as embodiments of evil myself.
Therefore, I stand by my statement: orc civilization going from raiding tribes and hordes to a stable kingdom in 100 years is simply implausible.
Oh, I don't disagree that it's highly unlikely we'd go from "Obould tosses his Ho' off the side of a cliff" to "tenderly caressing his child's cheek" in just a few generations of time in gender relations alone. Also, Gruumsh is abandoned (?!)
I mean seriously, what's described is like if the entire Orc population of Many Arrows converted to Lathanderism. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 04:56:03
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, Orcs aren't tribal but Clanish. There's a slight difference. Orcs have metal working, smiths, and armor rather than stone age hunting skills. They're actually far more 'civilized' than you might think. It's just they're routinely impoverished. 100 years is 5 generations. For orcs, it's more like 7 1/2 generations.
I'd say that 100 years might be 4 generations of orcs, maybe 5 -- certainly not 7.5. Also, knowing how to work metal does not imply civilization. It's a skill. It's certainly more commonly found among civilized races, but just because they know how to do it, it doesn't mean they act civilized. And there's no indication that orcs developed this skill themselves -- I find it far more likely to think they learned it from some other race; most likely from enslaved smiths.
Orcs have not, in recent memory, shown any signs of civilization beyond a tribal level. And they've shown little desire to advance past that level. So, I don't care who their neighbors are, and I don't care if they have magical healing. If these things weren't a factor in the past (as they obviously weren't, or we'd not be having this discussion), then they aren't a factor now.
Therefore, I stand by my statement: orc civilization going from raiding tribes and hordes to a stable kingdom in 100 years is simply implausible.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Compared to the Icewind Dale Tundra Tribes, Orcs are much more likely to be civilized.
Apples and oranges. The barbarians of the Dales may eschew civilization, but they are part of a civilized race. They can easily adapt to civilization, especially since they hail from and are kin to civilized peoples. They are a lot more civilized than orcs, even if there are some few similarities in their lifestyles. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 03:52:43
quote:
It's the Realms. It's magic.
I'm just basically saying that the Realms is not something that can be judged by normal standards of behavior. We're dealing with a non-human race that is surrounded by magical Empires of Silverymoon and with Better than Modern Day Healthcare thanks to clericism.
Also, Orcs aren't tribal but Clanish. There's a slight difference. Orcs have metal working, smiths, and armor rather than stone age hunting skills. They're actually far more 'civilized' than you might think. It's just they're routinely impoverished. 100 years is 5 generations. For orcs, it's more like 7 1/2 generations.
Compared to the Icewind Dale Tundra Tribes, Orcs are much more likely to be civilized. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 03:36:05
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I've never argued that. I just can't buy that in 100 years, they go from the horde mentality of "kill and pillage anyone weaker, including other orcs" to "farm, trade, be an okay neighbor, and otherwise act civilized".
It's the Realms. It's magic.
I truly hope you're being flip, because that kind of explanation will make me dislike the idea even more. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 03:04:25
quote:
I've never argued that. I just can't buy that in 100 years, they go from the horde mentality of "kill and pillage anyone weaker, including other orcs" to "farm, trade, be an okay neighbor, and otherwise act civilized".
It's the Realms. It's magic.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 01:15:47
quote:
Originally posted by Damon33
Also was not early man maybe as savage as the orcs? We cant be sure about that, but I dont see this as totally out of character that they orcs would evolve. They do hold some intelligence.
I've never argued that. I just can't buy that in 100 years, they go from the horde mentality of "kill and pillage anyone weaker, including other orcs" to "farm, trade, be an okay neighbor, and otherwise act civilized". |
| Damon33 |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 00:31:22
I havent been here in a long time so forgive me on that. I did a review of The Orc King recently though http://www.fantasybookspot.com/node/2074. I dont think I really liked the peak into the future personally. I like the fact that the Orc Kingdom opens up a ton of new possibities (Orc Hero novels??) but why did we have to hear about it before it happened?
From a Realm standpoint though I think it is a great idea. Constant conflict from rogue factions, the thought above about maybe some real novels about the orcs, and we dont even know how it will factor in with the Spellplague so far. Good idea, poor delivery. Thats not to say I didnt enjoy the book because I did, and who knows if this was a WOTC push or Salvatore push on the prologue epilogue.
Also was not early man maybe as savage as the orcs? We cant be sure about that, but I dont see this as totally out of character that they orcs would evolve. They do hold some intelligence. |
| Arkhaedun |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:17:28
I just cleared about a few posts that got off topic and onto a discussion of real world religions. This is against the CoC, so lets be careful to not go too far afield and try to be sensitive of the beliefs of others, and to stay focused on discussing the Realms.
Thanks all. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 02:48:44
Yeah, it seems that whatever happened backfired on Gruumsh because the Old Religion has seriously died down. It's difficult to imagine all the orcs abandoning Gruumsh but they did.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 02:19:35
Fuedalism clearly is one posible model, as other models offered have been rejected to take place within 100 years. I offered other ideas that appear posible for holding a kingdom together. I did not however see a tribal confederation having a good chance of holding together. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 01:31:21
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I wouldn't be surprised if the Orcs of Obouldland operate with a heavy slave system or perhaps have been using beaten down orcs to maintain a functional feudal system. With the influence of Alustriel or the Orc Gods, there's no end of changes that can be brought about. Let's face it, the depiction of Orcs as a Hunter/Gatherer society is inaccurate.
They love meat but they grow their fungus and so on to sustain themselves when not raiding.
I hate to disagree with you, but I think you might be confusing society with a system of production. I was under the impression that for the most part, orcs were a tribal society. A tribal society could be hunter/gatherer, but could just as easily be farming or herding. But I would not jump to the assumption that the next leap in orc civilization is fuedalism where there are other options and possibilies. Who knows, maybe orcs go communist. It seems to work for Mongolia. *shrugs*
I just think that to assume that orcs would suddenly jump to fuedalism is a little eurocentric. But I could be totally off. And I'm sure that me preferring orcs as a tribal people has something to do with it as well. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 18:52:06
I think that, even in Faerun, the situation with Orcs and Elves are that they are pretty much "Naturally Evil" and "Naturally Good" solely by virtue of their pantheons. In the Forgotten Realms, especially in the little corner that R.A. Salvatore calls his own, it's the fact that all races have complete freedom to choose their own destinies. It's only that Orc culture is dominated by Gruumsh and that the Dark Elves are dominated by Lolth that say otherwise.
Look at it from the fact that we have huge hordes of evil elves, including an evil Elven Secret Society that wants to exterminate all humans. There's nothing really keeping Orcs from moving to Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral without disturbing their gods religion. Obould was the Chosen of Gruumsh and clearly he wanted to build a civilization (why? He's a Chaotic Evil God).
I wouldn't be surprised if the Orcs of Obouldland operate with a heavy slave system or perhaps have been using beaten down orcs to maintain a functional feudal system. With the influence of Alustriel or the Orc Gods, there's no end of changes that can be brought about. Let's face it, the depiction of Orcs as a Hunter/Gatherer society is inaccurate.
They love meat but they grow their fungus and so on to sustain themselves when not raiding. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 22:44:26
I think it is absolutely crazy to philosophize on the ORC, GOBLIN, ETC.
They ARE the real monsters. They are not misunderstood humans they are MONSTERS. (Albeit I like Vraak). A Good orc should be RARE. They are the bestial races of brutality. D&D is a game of good versus evil.
That little goblin beat up in the Drizzt short story was beaten by an evil human. That does not make the goblin any less evil. I felt no remorse for the goblin, because well it was a goblin. One ofthe evil races. A monster race. A humanoid and not a human.
The demi human races embody something positive related to humans.
Dwarf: creativity and industry
Elf: Wonder and beauty, myth
Hobbit: Home and adventure
The Humanoid races embody that which is negative:
Orcs: Brutality
Goblins: Avarice
Kobolds: Cowardice
The short story about the pathetic goblin, and writing about the 'good' orcs, is pure and simple Hollywood.
Humanoids are in D&D as the evil one must fight. They are not a misunderstood human kingdom.
|
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 17:34:10
Fron 2nd
quote:
Most lairs above ground are rude villages of wooden huts protected by a ditch, log rampart and log palisade, or more advanced constructions built by other races. The village will have 1-4 watch towers and a single gate. There will be one ballista and one catapult for every 100 adult male orcs.
Orcs are aggressive. They believe other species are inferior to them and that bullying and slavery is part of the natural order. They will cooperate with other species but are not dependable: as slaves, they will rebel against all but the most powerful masters; as allies they are quick to take offense and break agreements. Orcs believe that battle is the ideal challenge, but some leaders are pragmatic enough to recognize the value of peace, which they exact at a high price. If great patience and care are used, orc tribes can be effective trading partners and military allies.
Orcs value territory above all else; battle experience, wealth, and number of offspring are other major sources of pride. Orcs are patriarchal; women are fit only to bear children and nurse them. Orcs have a reputation for cruelty that is deserved, but humans are just as capable of evil as orcs. Orcs have marriage customs, but orc males are not noted for their faithfulness.
quote:
Orcs are carnivores, but prefer game meats or livestock to demihumans and humanoids.
quote:
Orcs are skilled miners.
They do have a civilization, though there are the down sides as well. Glorify warfare, take slaves and always want more land.
A transition to just hunting game and trading for livestock could be a first step, if they have enough mines. They also might hire out as merceneries espcially in a war against Elves or Draves. A code of honor is lacking, but within 50 years there could be a code of conduct that thy would tend to follow. However there are no rules in war is a code, however humans are famious for as well.
Perhaps in 75 years the females might even be given the job of farming, clearl the slaves could be pressed into this task. Orcs are meat eaters their slaves however often need a more balanced diet and it would be boring to raid for grain that an orc would not eat.
In present day (or at least 2nd, so prehaps a little in the past) weak orc tribes will pay tribute to a more powerful orc tribe if the tribes live that near to each other. This serves as a starting basics of borders for Bornies, Ductheries and so on of a Fuedal society with more or less defined borders. A unified Empire does not exist 100 years from now as indeed many want the king dead, however for reason of power no single tribe can take out the king's tribe (which is why assasination appears to be the plan) and so they openly obey the King's edicts (more or less *Grin*) but belong to a kingdom.
It is not imposible that the kingdom could stand with some agreed bounderies that are not to be crossed in war, but can be crossed for trade. Not that every orc, human, elf, etc. will always comply with.
In some ways the new Kingdom can exist under the MAD concept, allout war would kill most of both sides. I would expect within the Kingdom various orc tribes would attack other simalar sized tribes in hope to expand their teritory, the minor battles would not be a matter for the king, a Duke seeking to take out another Duke would require the Kings attention and way to do that is to have Dukes join together to prevent it. As each Duke would in effect control in a limited way many tribes it is in their interest not to allow one Duke to double the amount of tribes another Duke controls. The balance of power could maintain a kingdom and with a powerful and wise king clearly posible in 100 years.
The Kingdom will fall apart as soon as a weak, foolish or stupid king achieves the throne. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 16:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
This just makes me think that WoTC saw how well liked the Warcraft Horde was and wanted to get in on the action. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I like the idea of an (lawful neutral with lawful evil tendencies?) orc kingdom.
And about the fact that a civilisation can't develope in a 100 years, I'm thinking that when all the half-orcs around Sword Coast heard about a new orc kingdom they moved in and brought parts of human civilisation with them. Also there must have been some orc ex-slaves who were stone masons etc. who came also. And ofcourse the orcs have taken human experts as slaves.
That's still a very small number, and it doesn't account for orcs overcoming their warlike tendencies to become farmers and grocers.
It just feels forced upon us, that as well as I can say it.
It would like Obarsykrs becoming celibate within 100 years.....
no way in the 9 hells could it or would it happen.
I feel like the tribal, warlike, fierce orcs are at the pinnacle of their evoulution not the begining. I like them just as they are.
I wonder when the kobolds will carve out a kingdom just around the bend from Menzoberranzan?? Why not? Are they not as deserving of a Kingdom as Orcs?? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 12:25:12
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
This just makes me think that WoTC saw how well liked the Warcraft Horde was and wanted to get in on the action. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I like the idea of an (lawful neutral with lawful evil tendencies?) orc kingdom.
And about the fact that a civilisation can't develope in a 100 years, I'm thinking that when all the half-orcs around Sword Coast heard about a new orc kingdom they moved in and brought parts of human civilisation with them. Also there must have been some orc ex-slaves who were stone masons etc. who came also. And ofcourse the orcs have taken human experts as slaves.
That's still a very small number, and it doesn't account for orcs overcoming their warlike tendencies to become farmers and grocers. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 11:03:48
This just makes me think that WoTC saw how well liked the Warcraft Horde was and wanted to get in on the action. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I like the idea of an (lawful neutral with lawful evil tendencies?) orc kingdom.
And about the fact that a civilisation can't develope in a 100 years, I'm thinking that when all the half-orcs around Sword Coast heard about a new orc kingdom they moved in and brought parts of human civilisation with them. Also there must have been some orc ex-slaves who were stone masons etc. who came also. And ofcourse the orcs have taken human experts as slaves. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 03:35:38
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Could it be that dwarves, elves, and humans are simply unable to understand the mind and heart of the orc, and therefore ignorantly jump to the conclusion that orcs should be driven away and/or attacked on sight?
I think they understand that most of the time, orcs have their hearts and minds set on killing them and sacking their homes, not making friends with them.
I've said it before, but the orcs that sprung out of the Orcgate were evil and bloodthirsty, and were worshiping an orc pantheon of evil gods. These orcs weren't misunderstood or oppressed at this point.
The Everhorde that stormed out of the Spine of the World weren't provoked by the cities they eventually sacked and wiped off the face of Faerun. I don't remember anything in the history of Phalorm or other nations of the North that indicates that they went into the mountains to provoke the orcs.
Heck, even the orcs that (ironically) destroyed Gauntlgrym weren't, as far as we know, provoked by the humans there, other than by the humans having a city worth raiding (though this history may not survive this particular novel).
I'm not saying some orcs aren't capable of being good or neutral in outlook, nor am I saying that orcs may not be more warlike because they live in regions where resources are scarce, however, even this "reason" for their raiding doesn't mean that they have been oppressed or misunderstood.
Aye! Never trust an Orc!! (Nothing like chaninging a quote to fit your needs)  |
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