| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kairin |
Posted - 28 Jan 2007 : 16:16:29
I just finished the book.. And I have to say.. I was really blown away by the ending. Didn't expect that ending..
Mod Edit: Added possible spoiler tag to title. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2007 : 20:56:18
Well, I'm yet again a few months behind in my reading <g>. Just finished it, and my first thoughts are Vhaeraun's gone.... hmmm, he was a lot like Mask. I can see Mask possibly posing as an alias of Vhaeraun somehow, providing his worshippers with spells and spreading heresy about Eilistraee. I mean, both had shadow.. they were both tricksters... they're both on the run from something... |
| Trizzt08 |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 05:08:00
wow you guys are fast and thank you I was gonna cut & paste but you beat me to it |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 04:58:02
Redirected from this scroll:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
So what did everyone think of the book. I liked it. It threw lots of curveballs at me and I loved every minute of it. Eilistraee finally made some power moves taking out Selvetarm and defeating Vhareun and taking his portfolio increasing her worshp once everything settles down. oh and my prediction is that Lolth and her end with a draw and neither dies. Elistraee might go CN but I doubt that too. maybe something like Mystra's situation where she accepts previous worshippers of Vaherun regardless of alignment
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| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 03:05:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are.
I've heard that more then once of various boards as well. I believe even Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, has said as much as well.
That isn't entirely correct.
Some of the recent events in both the Sharn and another trilogy for the EB setting have either directly contradicated some of what was published as canon in Sharn: City of Towers and/or the EBCS itself, or referenced material that hasn't been published yet.
It's for this reason, that he asked what KJER noted above.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 02:49:31
He was actually discussing this at the Worlds of D&D forums, and asking fans of the novels if they would like them to be considered canon in the same way that Realms novels are. Also, in the past, DragonLance designers kind of picked and choose what they considered canon when game products were concerned (although now it appears that the whole novel is suppose to be canon). |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 02:14:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are.
I've heard that more then once of various boards as well. I believe even Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, has said as much as well. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 01:53:36
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 01:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I understand that everyone has their own opinions on all of this, and that people like things the way they are, and I respect that. That having been said, I'll only make two comments in regards to this. Its the first book of a trilogy. And I personally doubt that the end point of this story will be to turn the majority of drow into surface dwelling "good guys."
Even this first book isn't quite "good guys take all"--there is plenty of evidence suggesting that any victories for Good are a lot more nuanced and complicated than they at first seem to be. I have the feeling there is a LOT more going on than meets the eye in Sacrifice of the Widow.
And it doesn't help that the apparent protagonist, Cavatina, has her own fair share of moral failings, such as pride and jealousy. I was surprised when--near the end of the book--she was hoping for praise and a reward for her actions in the exact same way the amoral Q'arlynd did. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 17:52:11
quote:
Originally posted by KiaransalynI hate to contradict but she definitely died in the novel. I've just checked it.
Quote: Page 286 "On any plane but here, she was immortal." The text then goes on to describe Lolth falling into a portable hole filled with holy water.
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
That said, it was a terrible novel and its exclusion from Greyhawk canon is very understandable.
What I meant is even though it "says" she died in that novel, she really didn't because current Greyhawk material says otherwise. There's a lot of material, for all settings, that have been overwritten.
However, my main point is Lloth on Hawk never died even though the novel "claims" she did. |
| Arkhaedun |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:54:36
I posted this comment in the final thread of the Sacrifice of the Widow book club, and I'm reposting it here just for the sake of reference. Thanks all who are participating, and thank you for your attention in this matter:
A few friendly reminders about the Book Club and the CoC:
While it is perfectly alright to state that you don't like a given book, or even to say that you are not a fan of a particular author, comments that that indicate, for example, that "you should have know this book would turn out this way because X wrote it," are on the verge of being a direct insult to the author. This is not allowed at Candlekeep, and I would ask that you do your best to refrain from dismissive comments about the authors "pattern" of writing.
Also, while it makes perfect sense to reference game material from time to time in such discussions, long digressions into game rule disputes should be avoided. This is the Forgotten Realms book club section of the keep, and when roleplaying sourcebooks come in to reference they generally should be used as a reference, and not take precedence over what is actually being discussed in the novel at hand.
Finally, while it makes sense to discuss the novels that have obvious ties to a given series (for example, in this case, the WOTSQ books), lets all make sure that our primary comments in this particular thread mainly have to do with the book and series in question, and don't drift back into too much of a critique of another book or series.
Thanks. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:33:26
I understand that everyone has their own opinions on all of this, and that people like things the way they are, and I respect that. That having been said, I'll only make two comments in regards to this. Its the first book of a trilogy. And I personally doubt that the end point of this story will be to turn the majority of drow into surface dwelling "good guys." |
| FlyingGnome |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:20:04
I really don't like the direction where that story is going. Looks to me as if this will end up in another "yipee the good ones always prevail" novels. And that after Mister Kemp so perfectly saved the WotSQ series from becoming just that in the end..
I'd really be displeased to say at least to see the evil deities weakened. While loosing Selvetarm is still bearable to me, loosing Vhaerun or seeing Lloth weakened or destroyed  wouldn't. The followers of Lloth have been seeing their backsides kicked in so many of the previous books.. time of troubles, failed invasion of Mithril Hall, Lloth's silence and thus the fall of Ched Nassad, that they really should not end up having their deity wiped out or having Elistraee becoming the new super godess of fluffyness... If any such should occur i'll just close my eyes, hold my ears shut and repeat "its not canon" to myself whilst rocking back and forth.
I really hope that it won't come to that. I for myself hope that Lloth had this planned so far, getting angry at Eilistraae's "lucky" throw and Selvetarm's end wouldn't suit a chaotic deity, she'd have been more likely highly ammused by the twist. On the other hand Eilistraee as chaotic good deity taking up the portfolio of a chaotic evil one doesn't seem all too logical either.
I'd wish to see Halistra becoming Lloth's new champion as "reward" for some major betrayal that leaves Elistraee weakened in the future of that series. But somehow i already see her at the top of the "not so dark anymore" Seldarine instead and the drow coming en masse to the surface to strip naked and dance hand in hand .... |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 10:03:36
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
She didn't die in that novel
I hate to contradict but she definitely died in the novel. I've just checked it.
Quote: Page 286 "On any plane but here, she was immortal." The text then goes on to describe Lolth falling into a portable hole filled with holy water.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
WOTC, if I recall right, has said that that novel isn't canon for Greyhawk, which is backed up by the current material for Greyhawk since Lloth is in the core material and the WOTC produced Greyhawk material.
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
That said, it was a terrible novel and its exclusion from Greyhawk canon is very understandable. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 22:11:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I recall that Lolth died in Pauk Kidd's Greyhawk novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits.
She didn't die in that novel and WOTC, if I recall right, has said that that novel isn't canon for Greyhawk, which is backed up by the current material for Greyhawk since Lloth is in the core material and the WOTC produced Greyhawk material. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 21:14:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think you'll be disappointed. This novel isn't about gods running around killing each other, it's about interesting characters having to interact with people they don't know and don't trust...and yes, it's very much about mortals who worship Eilistraee. In spite of my own fears about this book, I've found the story to be highly enjoyable.
 I think you're right. After all, isn't a book that lives up to expectations predictable? And good fiction should keep readers guessing.
Even though Selvetarm dies in this book, I recall that Lolth died in Pauk Kidd's Greyhawk novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits. (And lets not forget Orcus.) More than a few gods have a tendancy of not staying dead.
So, although it'll be with some trepidation that I'll read this book it'll also be with interest and curiosity. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:17:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Not like Q'Arlynd's much better himself, though. He's responsible for the horrible death of his brother and doesn't really feel too bad about peoples' souls getting consumed by a ritual he's helping in.
Never said I thought he was a nice guy, he's just not bad enough for me not to feel any sympathy for him. But again, this is all just how I personally registered these characters. |
| Ethriel |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 18:41:07
Not like Q'Arlynd's much better himself, though. He's responsible for the horrible death of his brother and doesn't really feel too bad about peoples' souls getting consumed by a ritual he's helping in. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:39:21
*shrugs* Not enough for me, I guess. |
| Ethriel |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:35:53
Pharaun wasn't sympathetic, per se, but he was tons of fun to read about and root for. He wasn't 'go out of my way to kick puppies' bad, he was 'do what I want to do now and have fun doing it,' bad. Plus, he did seem to have some morals. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:16:43
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Man, I'm missing Pharaun...he and Q'arlynd would make such an interesting duo...except while Q'arlynd has some morals, Pharaun was actually extremely evil
That's what I like about Q'arlynd...he's ultimately self-serving (and therefore, believable), but he's also sympathic enough for me to root for him without feeling somehow "dirty" afterwards. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:12:21
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Cynicism aside. I have just placed an order for Sacrifice.. and also Ghostwalker. I'm buying Sacrifice mostly to keep up to date with the happenings of the Realms drow but I'm already fearing that I won't approve of the events the book will relate. (Although that isn't to besmirch the author's writing, which will probably be enjoyable.)
I don't think you'll be disappointed. This novel isn't about gods running around killing each other, it's about interesting characters having to interact with people they don't know and don't trust...and yes, it's very much about mortals who worship Eilistraee. In spite of my own fears about this book, I've found the story to be highly enjoyable. |
| Ethriel |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 22:04:56
It's because Qilue is one of the perfect, beautiful, foreseeing Seven....God, I hate the Seven. And Pharaun and Ryld were probably two of the best Drow portrayed together I've seen. Fascinating pair |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 21:33:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Qilue: Haha! I made sure to forsee all of this and warned my Goddess ahead of time!
She didn't foresee anything. Vhaerauns plots just aren't perfect... sometimes 
I guess/hope we'll see more of Pharaun in Thomas Reid's trilogy. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 20:54:54
Speaking of personality and character, the IMHo best portaits of drow society in the WotSQ series were Danifae and Valas. The rest were just the "extremes" to either side of what is possible.
Most of the Eilistraeens in SotW were much like I expect them to be, i.e. NOT blinding cool looking half stupidly acting 'dancing naked in the moonlight' drow females. Reading the novel will help setting them into a right view. IMHO.
One major plus of the novel is a fair use of divine magic, something that rarely gets a mention - healing aside. |
| Ethriel |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 20:44:41
Actually, it was more of a 'author DEM' that did that
Qilue: Haha! I made sure to forsee all of this and warned my Goddess ahead of time!
And Eilistraee isn't reckless? Her bright idea: Send a conflicted novice murderer on the most important mission ever undertaken by a priestess...
Man, I'm missing Pharaun...he and Q'arlynd would make such an interesting duo...except while Q'arlynd has some morals, Pharaun was actually extremely evil |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 20:06:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Vhaeraun has something not a one of these jokers has: Personality.
Well, he's reckless and that got him killed. 
I would wait 'til the end of the trilogy before coming up with any complaints. I'm convinced that we'll read of Vhaeraun again... |
| Ethriel |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 19:44:57
Well, for one, he's more interesting than any of his family:
Lolth: Mwahahaha! I'm evil!!!! *Continue ad nauseum for 20 years*
Eilistraee: I'm so good! I want to help the Drow!....unless they're male. Then they can stay the hell out of any holy ceremonies. Now, go forth, priestesses and heedlessly slaughter everything even slightly unnatural! No, I don't care if it might be good, bring me the heads!
Selvetarm: *Gurgle* Serve Loth *Gurgle*
Vhaeraun has something not a one of these jokers has: Personality.
And cleverness. He actually manages to react to things in new ways, comes up with plans that tend to be pretty good, has a charming sense of ruthlessness and his followers tend to be....interesting. And considering he's managed to take Ched Nassad pretty completely and nearly killed his mom by tricking the WOTSQ adventurers, he's been pretty succesful in his endeavors |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 19:15:07
Cynicism aside. I have just placed an order for Sacrifice.. and also Ghostwalker. I'm buying Sacrifice mostly to keep up to date with the happenings of the Realms drow but I'm already fearing that I won't approve of the events the book will relate. (Although that isn't to besmirch the author's writing, which will probably be enjoyable.)
And it's about time I bought Ghostwalker. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 18:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
one wonders why it is the drow pantheon that gets soooo much attention.
I agree. The Dark Seldarine is small enough. I know from my days DM-ing drow-based games that most PC's don't worship Lolth. Many played with Selvetarm as their patron and even more played with Vhaeraun as their patron. The other question that comes to mind is why is that drow deities play the Peeekaboo game. One minute they grant spells, one minute they don't. Is this designed to reassure their worshippers that being alone in the dark is safe?
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, that's true...however, the possibility he's dead is horribly idiotic, storywise...the way and dispatching of such an excellent God...
I think we all should get used to the fact that as buyers of these products only our money counts not our opinions. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 17:53:25
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, that's true...however, the possibility he's dead is horribly idiotic, storywise...the way and dispatching of such an excellent God...
What's excellent about this spoilt brat?  Sneaking about mum and telling the world he sets the "order" among men and women "right" ... which in essence means that males dominate the clergy and females don't? I'd rather have a new outcast deity like Zinzerena dealing with females and males on an equal basis and providing some opposition to Lolthites, but in general is being more concerned with the surface et al. If Eilistraee and Vhaeraun left the Underdark drow to their own plots, they could have gone unmolested for aeons - Wizards permitting.
Well he clearly has his fans and his dogma does offer some good atibutes. The trickry though clearly makes him not fully trustworthy. There are some things the children agree on, return to the surface, aiding others (the son though limits aid to his followers) and more gender nuetral scoiety (not his fault that few females desire to become Clergy, the offer is there for them), etc. Of course there are differences between the choldren as well.
As for being involved in the underdark, both children have maney followers there and both children seek to weaken their mother. |
