| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Effect |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 02:06:32
Dwarfs have always been a favorite fantasy race of mine for some reason. Are there any books or series of books where dwarfs are presented at the main charactes or one of the main characters?
Also stories that might be focused more on the dwarf aspect of the Forgotten Realms (could be player guides, books, short stories)? Any plans for stories like that?
Are there any particular writers that have been known to take a liking to the dwarf race in their stories and a result might make them some of the more interesting and well thought out characters?
Thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 10:19:55
Though, I think it should also be noted that one must be careful of specifically trying "too hard" to avoid a stereotype, otherwise the character seems totally contrived and out of cultural context.
I think one way of making a character that is truly indicative of one's general race and culture is just to read up about it as much as possible - and let your brain go as it will. If your Dwarf has a fear of rats for some reason from his youth, then so be it. If your Dwarf seems to fit a stereotype, ask yourself, "Well, why is my dwarf acting this way?" And if you have a reason, then go with it.
Moreso than other races, Demihumans do have a culture inherent to them, in large part because, as far as we can tell, they arose from directly divine sources. (This is stated specifically about the Elves, at least, that they did not evolve naturally.)
Sometimes stereotypes have a reason for becoming stereotypes; other times, they do not. Just don't try too hard to go one way or the other, I would say. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 09:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not saying that some elves might not be pranksters, or even played for comic effect, but I think in general, dwarves have a tendancy to have traits that most readers can more easily see as comical. For example, when elves get prideful, they get haughty and superior, when dwarves get prideful, they tend to get flustered and blustery.
And why can't dwarves react in a more dignified way? Imagine a thrown handaxe missing you by just a few millimeters.
Again, it's the "walking, talking stereotype" mindset at work. Not anything "inherent." |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 04:47:49
I think I could imagine a flustered elf, if one managed to really insult him/her enough to get past that veneer of civility.
You know, Wild/Wood and Sun Elves really have a lot more in common than some people think. (Semi-random comment.) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 04:43:23
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not saying that some elves might not be pranksters, or even played for comic effect, but I think in general, dwarves have a tendancy to have traits that most readers can more easily see as comical. For example, when elves get prideful, they get haughty and superior, when dwarves get prideful, they tend to get flustered and blustery.
But even that one example is only taking into account one way to look at these creatures. Granted, you are pointing out the way they've been portrayed in this setting (which is what counts, I suppose, since this is an FR forum after all), but I'm thinking outside the box a little, here. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 03:48:58
I'm not saying that some elves might not be pranksters, or even played for comic effect, but I think in general, dwarves have a tendancy to have traits that most readers can more easily see as comical. For example, when elves get prideful, they get haughty and superior, when dwarves get prideful, they tend to get flustered and blustery.
All that having been said, I really would like to see a LONG streach of time before anyone uses a dwarf for comic releif again. Thats why gnomes were invented . . . |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 02:21:42
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I know that dwarves are likely to have more humorous traits than elves...
I don't think that's something inherent. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 01:42:03
Thats a good point Sage . . . I know that dwarves are likely to have more humorous traits than elves, for example, but there is a line between excentric behavior and being too silly to take seriously. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 01:33:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
I actually enjoyed reading about a dwarf who had a vocabulary that exceeded the usual dwarven stereotype. Although the whole rhyming-business did get on my nerves after a while...
Well, there is Delg from Spellfire and Ebenezer from Thornhold--dwarves who actually speak normally, without a silly gimmick.
As I recall, the same applied to Elaine's other two dwarves, Jill and Morgala the Mirthful.
Of which I was pleased to read.
I like dwarves having gimmicks, but sometimes that aspect can be taken too far. It always seems to overemphasize the point that you are reading about dwarves.
The occasional gimmicky speech is fine, just not overdone.
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| Jaleigh J. |
Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 01:09:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
You got me all excited about a real dwarf story!
Careful, Mace, I don't want anyone to have any pre-conceived notions based on my, in hammer's words, teasing. ;) I'm guessing (well, hoping) the finished product will not be what anyone expects. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 21:13:06
Well, maybe we'll have some soon *points at Jaleigh* You got me all excited about a real dwarf story! |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 21:11:20
Kinda strange if you think about it, DragonLance has several dwarf-related novels, and they are fun to read. The Realms have none... bloody shame |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 20:31:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
I actually enjoyed reading about a dwarf who had a vocabulary that exceeded the usual dwarven stereotype. Although the whole rhyming-business did get on my nerves after a while...
Well, there is Delg from Spellfire and Ebenezer from Thornhold--dwarves who actually speak normally, without a silly gimmick.
As I recall, the same applied to Elaine's other two dwarves, Jill and Morgala the Mirthful. |
| Jaleigh J. |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 19:24:49
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
Jaleigh, you are either going to be one of my favorite authors, or I'm going to be very mad at you for teasing!  
I don't know, hammer, that might be too much pressure in either scenario. ;) I'll do my best not to disappoint. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 18:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
While I agree for the most part about RAS' dwarves, I always liked Ivan Bouldershoulder (I can't stand the stupid brother) and Thibbledorf Pwent. Although RAS' dwarves have stupid names and are generally comic relief, I did feel that the Hunter's Blades was a step in the right direction. If you look past the obvious problems, there's some good there. I felt the dwarves were portrayed as valiant, noble, and protective of their kin, which to me are the qualities that make dwarves great. I'll take dwarven unity over elven racism anyday.
Also, I can't remember his name, but I thought the duergar from The Crimson Gold was done well.
I think that this is one of those things that is actually frustrating about RAS in general. He can be a very good author, and he has so much potential (I know, that sounds funny given how well his stuff sells), but then he doesn't seem to want to "seal the deal" and follow through with some of his ideas.
As relates to dwarves . . . I could deal with Thibbledorf Pwent, and I get that an order of dwarven berserkers would be a bit . . . off, but one of the things that I think was strange is that all of RAS battleragers use spiked armor, even though that was originally just one thing that typified battleragers. They seem much more comical when you have all of them punching and wrestling just to use their spikes than if you have them running into battle with axes and the like. The spiked armor was sort of backup for if you lost your axe or hammer, but now its a signature of the (ugh) Gutbuster Brigade.
Bruenor gave a great speech in The Thousand Orcs, and he told some really great stories during the trip back to Mithril Hall. I remember thinking, yeah, he really does sound like a dwarven king, with tales of old and reverence for their ancestors and pride in their past . . . and then we get dwarves named Cordio Muffinhead and Tred McKnuckles becoming integral to the plots.
I loved the idea that General Dagna was sent from Citadel Adbar to bolster Mithril Hall as a show of dwarven solidarity, and he was a textbook dwarven general . . . then we get his son . . . Dagnabit. Later events in The Thousand Orcs couldn't erase the shame of his name.
I wouldn't want to see it happen, but using this kind of naming convention would be as jarring as having an elf named Prissy Flowersniffer . . .
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| Xysma |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:30:28
While I agree for the most part about RAS' dwarves, I always liked Ivan Bouldershoulder (I can't stand the stupid brother) and Thibbledorf Pwent. Although RAS' dwarves have stupid names and are generally comic relief, I did feel that the Hunter's Blades was a step in the right direction. If you look past the obvious problems, there's some good there. I felt the dwarves were portrayed as valiant, noble, and protective of their kin, which to me are the qualities that make dwarves great. I'll take dwarven unity over elven racism anyday.
Also, I can't remember his name, but I thought the duergar from The Crimson Gold was done well. |
| hammer of Moradin |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 06:13:57
Dwarves. Such an overlooked bunch (hey!, no short jokes ya Salvatorians).
Pretty much everything worth mentioning has been. Dwarves Deep is essential, and I often refer back to it in my articles. Lost Empires of Faerun has some excellent Lost lore.
Jaleigh, you are either going to be one of my favorite authors, or I'm going to be very mad at you for teasing! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 01:30:25
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Yeah, as I understand it, even the fans found Athrogate irritating.
Yup! I saw such comments on the RAS boards, myself. Some people still thought this guy was funny, but I can't understand why. "Bwahaha" and mean-spirited rhyming are about as childish as it gets.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 01:27:29
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
I actually enjoyed reading about a dwarf who had a vocabulary that exceeded the usual dwarven stereotype. Although the whole rhyming-business did get on my nerves after a while...
Well, there is Delg from Spellfire and Ebenezer from Thornhold--dwarves who actually speak normally, without a silly gimmick. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 09:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
...So obviously nobody wants to write or read about them.
That is not a totally true statement.
Choen of Moradin, also called "nobody", when the matter is read about dwarves.
Sir, it is called sarcasm.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Anyway, you'd best not read Promise of the Witch-King, because it features another dwarf with a constantly repeated catchphrase ("Bwahaha!"). That was grating, and I usually have a pretty high tolerance.
Yeah, as I understand it, even the fans found Athrogate irritating. Really, things like weird speech patterns are one-trick ponies. Amusing the first two times; the third time and it grows old fast. (Excepting, perhaps, things like Mieville's the Weaver. Mmm, rambling nonsense free verse.) |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 08:34:33
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[br
Stop, stop...
Anyway, you'd best not read Promise of the Witch-King, because it features another dwarf with a constantly repeated catchphrase ("Bwahaha!"). That was grating, and I usually have a pretty high tolerance.
I actually enjoyed reading about a dwarf who had a vocabulary that exceeded the usual dwarven stereotype. Although the whole rhyming-business did get on my nerves after a while... |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 04:31:53
There Kuje goes again, bein' all helpful. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 04:23:40
quote:
Originally posted by Effect
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. :)
WIll have to track down Dwarves Deep. Would it be to diffcult to find it being a pre-3rd Edition book?
Nobleknight.com has two of them listed for sale under the FR people and organizations section of the TSR FR sourcebooks. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 04:23:32
You'll probably have to order it offline. :) |
| Effect |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 04:15:41
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. :)
WIll have to track down Dwarves Deep. Would it be to diffcult to find it being a pre-3rd Edition book? |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 03:22:13
I hope you've taken a good read of Dwarves Deep. :)
It's truly a required item if one's going to write about Dwarves. (Just as Cormanthyr and Evermeet are required reads to write above Elves!) |
| Jaleigh J. |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 03:02:13
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
maybe one of the writers frequenting the forum will kinda think "Hey, dwarves...why not dwarves?" :)
Or maybe that very scenario happened, months ago, but he or she just can't talk about it yet. ;)
Wow, do I have to learn not to give in to temptation.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:29:38
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Thread has gone long enough without mentioning Delg, a stout dwarf with secrets, in Spellfire and Crown of Fire.
Actually, Winterfox made a reference to him in an earlier post. But yes, Delg is a great example of a serious dwarf. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:28:21
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Or burn the sodding book. It amazes me ever so slightly that repeating the same nonsense phrases over and over and over can be considered the height of hilarity. Of course, then again, potty humor is considered the height of wit by some, too. And uttering "Poo-poo" or "Pee-wee" will of course set certain people off into laughing fits...
I keep expecting something like "Bingo Fartalot" to show up.
Stop, stop...
Anyway, you'd best not read Promise of the Witch-King, because it features another dwarf with a constantly repeated catchphrase ("Bwahaha!"). That was grating, and I usually have a pretty high tolerance. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:19:07
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I don't know if Salvatore's books should be recommended for their dwarf-focused content. Apart from a select few, Salvatore tends to use dwarves as cheap slapstick props.
I basically agree with you. However, RAS's books are the only FR novels I can think of--that I've read--that feature a whole bunch of dwarves living in one place as a community (Thornhold sort of has this, but not to the same extent).
However, there are a lot more books that feature dwarven adventurers...even though I don't think any FR book features a dwarf as the protagonist. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 21:52:54
Gay dwarves?
Must not.. Make lewd comments. |
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