| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 12:21:28
I finished the three books in one week, but I am not about to give a full review of them, I'll give you my 2 or 3 cps.
I like the books, a lot. Damn fine piece of work in terms of narrative, the three sides to the story is a great way to put forth such a thing. We see no villains, actually. All characters and their actions are quite understandable.
The cultural issue is handled very well.
Nitpicker that I am I found a few editorial mistakes, but one can overlook missing words...
One of my favorites was the Zhentish orcs, although during the first battle they somehow disappeared from the tale (were not mentioned at all), when they came back it was with a vengeance that made me laugh so hard when the Tuigan fired the flaming arrows at the forest.
I'd love to see more tales being told this way.
The only thing that somewhat annoyed me was the permanent reintroduction of what characters wear, it became tedious. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 18:09:43
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
- Shou Lung has a Spelljammer fleet. Notable examples of places in Faerun that had Spelljammer fleets include Evermeet, Netheril, and Haluraa (I think). All of these places are heavily magic oriented. If Shou Lung was not magically sophisticated, it would be like giving a nuclear powered aircraft carrier to an impoverished developing nation.
thats true, the Shou (and all of Kara-Tur) are aware of spelljamming but it is Wa (Japan) that has the real fleet...the only ture fleets on Aber-Toril are Wa and the elves
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Thus that was one point that threw me off. Logically, Shou Lung should be a magic oriented empire, at least with more than 100 wu jen to send to such a vital, empire saving campaign. It is possible there could have been more spellcasters to send, but they were tied up by bureaucracy and selfish officials. Or culturally, Shou Lung's spellcasters are selfish or limited in their magic. Or Shou Lung spellcasters are not adept at battle magic and their talents lie elsewhere. However the reason is never given.
It seemed like mentioning the hundred spellcasters was a lot for Shou Lung. By that set up, there is little stopping a handful of decently power and enterprising foreign wizards from going into Shou Lung and taking over secretly using magic.
maybe it is that a wu-jen is more like a shaman in temperment than a wizard...I never really have read of a wu-jen researching and developing arcane knowledge like a wizard does...they are more like elementalists. Which is odd as Zakhara is even more focused towards the elements but they have almost full-blown artificaers, astrologists and even numerancy (number magic) if you look at the kite that were offered in the 2nd Ed. Shair's Handbook
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
I guess I'm saying I want notable Realmslore writers and designers to take Kara-Tur into consideration as a piece of the Forgotten Realms, as attached and interlinked with Faerun, and give us a comprehensive sourcebook, eventually.
I'v said that alot too....I have run campaigns in the Hordelands, Kara-tur, Maztica and Zakhara but as always as Faerunian explorers. I'v felt I and the players really had no experience role playing in one of those cultures (other than Holywood sterio-types)
The overwhelming problem I have ever had with Spalljamming is that the slowest Spelljamming ship can circle Toril in orbit in less than a few minutes so how could there be any "unknown" continents like the formerly undiscovered Maztica? One low level spelljamming PC with a helm and a groundling ship could make a fortune with simple trade from all over the world
oh, do you also have the old Dragon magizines with the "Dark Continent", the Africa continent? There have been hints and implications for years that the Realms was going to officially recieve the Dark Continent...I figure it's that large continent between Maztica and Kara-Tur in the Southern hemisphere |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 01:33:24
Don't forget the few Kara-Tur updates included in DRAGON #315 as well, as part of the "Campaign Classics" series. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 23:53:04
I've been making NPC's for Maztica/Kara-tur/Zakhara for a few issues now for the Compendium.
Pretty soon there is the official article on the Hordelands in Dragon as well. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 23:33:06
Yeah, that is possible, depending on which era of Asia and China was the main inspiration for Kara-Tur and Shou Lung. Towards the years of the Qing dynasty, China was obviously less technologically advanced than Europe, which reinforced my initial impression that Shou Lung seemed like the Qing era more than the other dynasties.
As for the West being more advanced than the East, that again really depends on what time period we're talking about. There is a lot of history to get into, but despite long lengths of supposed peace, China has been more advanced than any European counterpart for much of history, up until about the middle of the Ming dynasty, about the 1500s. The achievements during the Song and Ming dynasties were astounding, even compared to the corresponding Renaissance period in Europe. One of the most famous examples being how Ming dynasty Admiral Zheng He was visiting the east coast of Africa, possibly just about rounding the the Cape of Good Hope, a generation before Vasco de Gama did, with larger ships and larger fleets as well. The only other period where any European entity matched or surpassed China was possibly ancient Greece or the Roman empire. Necessity may be the mother of invention, but war is just one of many necessities. Not to say that east Asia has not had plenty of wars.
Here are some possible comparisons or considerations:
- Taking the Tuigan as the Mongols of the 13th century, the Chinese dynasty of that time was the Song dynasty, which we'll say roughly corresponds to Shou Lung. Song China was possibly one of the most technologically advanced country of the time, making breakthroughs in astronomy, construction, herbalism, etc. For example, that was when moveable block printing was invented. Gutenberg didn't invent the european printing press (which was a better process but based on similar ideas), until 400 years later.
- Let's say Toril is roughly equivalent to modern day Earth, with magic standing in for technology. China and Asia as a whole are not all that less advanced them the West. Japan is technologically advanced and has a powerful economy. China is economically powerful as well and not all that behind technologically. They have nuclear technology. They are the third nation to ever send a man into space under their own resources. South Korea is one of the most "wired" nations in the world, based on broadband connections per capita.
- Shou Lung has a Spelljammer fleet. Notable examples of places in Faerun that had Spelljammer fleets include Evermeet, Netheril, and Haluraa (I think). All of these places are heavily magic oriented. If Shou Lung was not magically sophisticated, it would be like giving a nuclear powered aircraft carrier to an impoverished developing nation.
-------
Thus that was one point that threw me off. Logically, Shou Lung should be a magic oriented empire, at least with more than 100 wu jen to send to such a vital, empire saving campaign. It is possible there could have been more spellcasters to send, but they were tied up by bureaucracy and selfish officials. Or culturally, Shou Lung's spellcasters are selfish or limited in their magic. Or Shou Lung spellcasters are not adept at battle magic and their talents lie elsewhere. However the reason is never given.
It seemed like mentioning the hundred spellcasters was a lot for Shou Lung. By that set up, there is little stopping a handful of decently power and enterprising foreign wizards from going into Shou Lung and taking over secretly using magic.
I guess I'm saying I want notable Realmslore writers and designers to take Kara-Tur into consideration as a piece of the Forgotten Realms, as attached and interlinked with Faerun, and give us a comprehensive sourcebook, eventually. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 21:36:05
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Thank you, Bluenose. As they say, you learn something new everyday. I had a vague recollection of once reading about some unusual materials used to make armors, I couldn't remember if paper was mentioend amongst them, apparently it was. The historical example you give makes more sense, compared to how Dragonwall described the armor. The way Troy Denning described it, only the image of thin and inflexible papier-mâché shells came to mind. Lacquered paper scales on a leather backing sounds more like viable armor.
I finished Dragonwall last night in a furious blitz of reading, couldn't put it down. The bittersweet ending was not what I expected. I liked the ending, it wasn't the typical happy conclusion, it made me feel for the characters even more. The concept of honor wasn't tossed around blatantly either (though it was a bit thick sometimes) which was refreshing for any Western interpretation on Asian cultural archetypes.
The final chapters presented a frightening glimpse if Thay's military/magical power and insidious dealings. However, it also highlighted how poorly places like Shou Lung seem to fit into the Forgotten Realms. Szass Tam offered Batu command of fifty thousand gnoll warriors and a hundred wizards if Batu would work for him. As General of the Northern Reaches, Batu only had command of a hundred spellcasters from Shou Lung and it was one of the largest single armies ever gathered in Shou Lung, something like a hundred and fifty thousand. Cultural and economic differences aside, the contrast in spellcasters is a bit vast.
There were glimspses of potent magic being worked such as how the wu jens covered Batu's troop movements with bad weather, or Kwan's magically reinforced health and endurance, or the hu hsien assassin. The differences in magical theory, useage and ethics weren't discussed. That could have gone a long way in making Kara-Tur sync in with the Realms.
I'm not much of a scholar of eastern history (in real life) but my take on history is "necessity is the mother of invention” and the reason Europe was so much advanced than say China or Japan was because of the high number of different cultures densely packed in a small geographical area that were constantly at war...compared to the rest of Asia, which was not at war constantly at war with themselves (though they did have their wars) and have long periods of complacent peace.
Unfortunately there is not much canon for Kara-Tur and the East in the Realms but Kara-Tur is similar China in that one huge, stable country that is supreme in power...so no reason to advance further. Zakhara (Arabia) is even more advanced technologically and magically than Kara-Tur (maybe more-so than Faerun/Europe) .
So it’s not surprising about the Shou Lung/Thay thing...it’s not much different than when the young USA first starting dealing with the much older Japan...technological superiority...
|
| Archwizard |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 21:22:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bluenose
Multiple layers of lacquered paper, attached as scales to a backing of leather. There was an example in the Royal Armouries Exhibition last time I was there, and I've seen illustrations in various publications. Apparently it was effective at stopping light arrows and was both lighter and cooler than metal armour. I should also note that the two areas it was used most were Korea and Southern China.
Thank you, Bluenose. As they say, you learn something new everyday. I had a vague recollection of once reading about some unusual materials used to make armors, I couldn't remember if paper was mentioend amongst them, apparently it was. The historical example you give makes more sense, compared to how Dragonwall described the armor. The way Troy Denning described it, only the image of thin and inflexible papier-mâché shells came to mind. Lacquered paper scales on a leather backing sounds more like viable armor.
I finished Dragonwall last night in a furious blitz of reading, couldn't put it down. The bittersweet ending was not what I expected. I liked the ending, it wasn't the typical happy conclusion, it made me feel for the characters even more. The concept of honor wasn't tossed around blatantly either (though it was a bit thick sometimes) which was refreshing for any Western interpretation on Asian cultural archetypes.
The final chapters presented a frightening glimpse if Thay's military/magical power and insidious dealings. However, it also highlighted how poorly places like Shou Lung seem to fit into the Forgotten Realms. Szass Tam offered Batu command of fifty thousand gnoll warriors and a hundred wizards if Batu would work for him. As General of the Northern Reaches, Batu only had command of a hundred spellcasters from Shou Lung and it was one of the largest single armies ever gathered in Shou Lung, something like a hundred and fifty thousand. Cultural and economic differences aside, the contrast in spellcasters is a bit vast.
There were glimspses of potent magic being worked such as how the wu jens covered Batu's troop movements with bad weather, or Kwan's magically reinforced health and endurance, or the hu hsien assassin. The differences in magical theory, useage and ethics weren't discussed. That could have gone a long way in making Kara-Tur sync in with the Realms. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 18:21:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I recall, that also coincided with one of their anniversaries. And I think it was only $15 that you had to spend -- I got a Maztica book (the second one, I believe; though I've since acquired the trilogy, I had no interest in it at the time and dumped it off at a used bookstore) with the PHBR5 Complete Psionics Handbook.
Thats right..but I'm Canadian and it was canadian prices for me   |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 17:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The ways of WotC are a mystery to most of us.
Seriously, there are a lot of great past novels, many of which were only printed once... I'm not sure why some novels are reprinted (especially ones I don't particularly care for) while others (particularly ones I know are well-loved by more readers than just me) remain out of print.
I remember a time in my early teens that TSR had a promotion where (at participating stores) if you spent like $20 (or $30, can't remember) or more they would give you one free novel from the Empires trilogy or the Maztica trilogy...they were selling so poorly that TSR was giving them away...
As I recall, that also coincided with one of their anniversaries. And I think it was only $15 that you had to spend -- I got a Maztica book (the second one, I believe; though I've since acquired the trilogy, I had no interest in it at the time and dumped it off at a used bookstore) with the PHBR5 Complete Psionics Handbook. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 17:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by Bluenose
quote:
Originally posted by ArchwizardFinal thought for the night, the concept of paper armor is strange. Not entirely sure about the feasibility, cord or wood sure, but just 15 sheets of paper? The process of making paper can't be easier than making leather, wood, cord or other types of non-metallic armor.
Multiple layers of lacquered paper, attached as scales to a backing of leather. There was an example in the Royal Armouries Exhibition last time I was there, and I've seen illustrations in various publications. Apparently it was effective at stopping light arrows and was both lighter and cooler than metal armour. I should also note that the two areas it was used most were Korea and Southern China.
Not only that, but in some areas, some resources are more plentiful than others... One of my fave non-Realms fantasy series is set partially on a world with very little metal. The main human nation on this world was a war-like empire, and all of their arms and armor were made of wood treated with special resins that made it nearly as strong as steel. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 14:04:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The ways of WotC are a mystery to most of us.
Seriously, there are a lot of great past novels, many of which were only printed once... I'm not sure why some novels are reprinted (especially ones I don't particularly care for) while others (particularly ones I know are well-loved by more readers than just me) remain out of print.
I remember a time in my early teens that TSR had a promotion where (at participating stores) if you spent like $20 (or $30, can't remember) or more they would give you one free novel from the Empires trilogy or the Maztica trilogy...they were selling so poorly that TSR was giving them away... |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 10:14:23
quote:
Originally posted by ArchwizardFinal thought for the night, the concept of paper armor is strange. Not entirely sure about the feasibility, cord or wood sure, but just 15 sheets of paper? The process of making paper can't be easier than making leather, wood, cord or other types of non-metallic armor.
Multiple layers of lacquered paper, attached as scales to a backing of leather. There was an example in the Royal Armouries Exhibition last time I was there, and I've seen illustrations in various publications. Apparently it was effective at stopping light arrows and was both lighter and cooler than metal armour. I should also note that the two areas it was used most were Korea and Southern China. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 06:54:43
I'm reading them now, about half way through Dragonwall and rapidly devouring the rest. I began the trilogy not expecting much. I am one of those who feel strongly that Kara-Tur as presented is a poor match for Faerun, mostly in the overt real life parallels. I have stated this opinion often on the WotC FR boards. I did not expect this trilogy, basically the only true series focusing strongly on Kara-Turan characters, to be anything but boring ripoffs of real historical figures and events from Asia. I was pleasantly surprised when I grew attached to the characters and the events they became tangled in.
Reading about Koja the lama's stay with the Tuigan, I felt as if I didn't want to be there just as much as Koja, yet at the same time I felt a sense of curiosity about Koja's host and then a growing sense of loyalty to the Tuigan. Yamun Khahan was also a far more interesting character than I initially thought from reading the sourcebooks. He appeared there as the regular Genghis Khan clone. Though as I read on Yamun's past diverged from Genghis Khan's. The whole bit about the stepmother was interesting. Though he was a tyrant, there were some likeable qualities to him, he is loyal to those who show him the same, almost LN rather than LE. He portrays a strong warrior/leader well, focusing not only on his martial prowess but his ability to identify, befriend, and use skilled people well.
The characters from Shou Lung were fascinating. Dragonwall does a lot to develop them, more than I expected. General Batu showed that despite a love of fighting and a desire for glory, he cared for his family just as much. Though he was not afraid to die, he made sure his wife and children would have the proper resources should he die and he also was cautious not to throw his life away needlessly. Lady Wu does justice to all the strong heroines in the martial arts fiction genre out there. Minister Kwan was a dispiseable son of a dog, where was Minister Ju-hai Chou was the archetypal bureaucrate fanatically loyal to the Empire/Emperor. though I'm only half way through so I can't comment more specifically.
The characters are heroes and villains, but not stereotyped. They have lives, goals, faults, etc. Some of them are arrogant, but not to a point of parody, some have good reason to be. I love the thick layer of intrigue, where words and tone can carry far more than face value. It's great to see characters can fall no matter how powerful they are, whether a mighty warrior, a powerful spellcaster, or a shrewd politician. I like the concept that characters are sometimes valuable not because of their combat ability but for the ideas they have or the ideals they embody.
I also like the departures of the cultures from real world parallels, or at least the hodge podge route taken, what seem to be Qing style clothing, ministers seated besides the Emperor, the pseudo-(insert Asian language) terms thrown out gradually with explanation. The choice to go with the middle of a dynasty was a good one, neither entirely decaying and dysfunctional nor teeming with vibrancy and completely clear of corruption.
Final thought for the night, the concept of paper armor is strange. Not entirely sure about the feasibility, cord or wood sure, but just 15 sheets of paper? The process of making paper can't be easier than making leather, wood, cord or other types of non-metallic armor.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:12:01
quote:
Originally posted by quajack
I believe that this trilogy (and specifically this battle), was used more to build up Azoun's mystique rather than Mr. Tuigan (I can't for the life of me remember his name).
Hoekun Yamun Khahan.
quote:
Originally posted by quajack
Does anyone know why WotC never reprinted this series?
The ways of WotC are a mystery to most of us.
Seriously, there are a lot of great past novels, many of which were only printed once... I'm not sure why some novels are reprinted (especially ones I don't particularly care for) while others (particularly ones I know are well-loved by more readers than just me) remain out of print. |
| quajack |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 22:10:23
Spoilers, maybe????????
Regarding Scererar's point about the ease with which Azoun slayed the Tuigan Cheif, I agree entirely. Being the Realms optimist that I am, however, I decided to view this as a reflection of Azoun's "worthiness" to rule Cormyr rather than an indictment of the head Tugian's weakness.
I've read FR novels in order of date of publication (I'm currently immersed in the Sembia Series), and Azoun's portrayal in Crusade helped shape my perception of him as I read about his exploits in subsequent works. I believe that this trilogy (and specifically this battle), was used more to build up Azoun's mystique rather than Mr. Tuigan (I can't for the life of me remember his name).
When I read this trilogy (about 3 years ago), I remember thinking that Horselords was very dry and tedious. I also remember thinking that after reading the other 2 novels, I realized how great a job Horselords did in setting up the overall tale. Does anyone know why WotC never reprinted this series? |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 08:09:51
Well the Empires Trilogy was one trilogy that I pretty much disregarded and avoided reading until quite late in my FR reading schedule. Mainly as I didn't fancy reading such obvious takes on earth cultures (Medieval is fine, of course - being the basis of fantasy).
How shocked, suprised and ashamed I was! This trilogy is fantastic and I still talk about them on a regular basis.
Horselords is a great pace and has a perfect feel to the calm before the storm. Dragonwall was the book I was least bothered about but ended up being OUTSTANDING! Crusade was the perfect end. I loved the Zhentarim orc commander in there too 
Highly recommended! |
| scererar |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 05:37:46
very good trilogy IMO.
potential spoiler below.
The only part that I did not like so much, was how easily Azoun defeated the Tuigan leader. All through the trilogy, this leader was able to defeat army after army, in an almost immortal portrayal. However, when he fought Azoun man-to-man, towards the end of the trilogy, he went down entirely too quick. I expected some sort of epic battle of sorts. |
| Crust |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 14:57:02
I read the Empire trilogy about seven years ago. I enjoyed them. The different cultures are very interesting. I do recall having to make it through the first two books before I got to Crusade, which I loved. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 14:46:36
I enjoyed the trilogy, myself. I got them as they were coming out, but I've read them many times since -- most recently in 2004, when Hurricane Frances left me without power for a week. |
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