| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 09:43:23
Should we see more of them?
Even though...yes....the setting was just "plopped in"
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 01:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
On Hallowed Ground from Planescape also has some info on them and so does the 1e Oriental Adventures. I'm not positive for the 2nd book but I'm positive on the 1st one. :)
The 1e OA doesn't cover a great deal about the Celestial Bureaucracy -- really just references to divine servants and some historical events.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 21:33:58
quote:
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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If the Celestial Bureaucracy (if that is the term...) was not kicked out and walked the land in avatar form, it makes one wonder what power Ao really does have... admittedly I think about far too many things, but nonetheless if this is the same world the events of one part should, to a degree, also be mentioned elsewhere.
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In Old Empires they actually mention that they were cast down and huddled in the mountains in a very orderly fashion or somesuch. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 17:29:56
On Hallowed Ground from Planescape also has some info on them and so does the 1e Oriental Adventures. I'm not positive for the 2nd book but I'm positive on the 1st one. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 17:16:16
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback book in 2nd edition mentioned that the Celestial Beuracracy had been dropped down in avatar form, in the letter from Vangerdahast to Elminster.
Ah, there it is. I had done a search of the pdf looking for the word "Celestial" and it had netted me nothing... The exact quote, from page 1 of Forgotten Realms Adventures:
quote:
The note from your Dragon-King ally in the furthest East is of equal interest, though I view his opinions with a great deal of suspicion. While I would like to believe that all the Eastern deities retreated to some mountain top and meditated quietly until the crisis had passed, other tales I have heard indicate that there was as much godly meddling there as here. The Shou spirits and gods have always been mired up to their hips in intrigue. The fact they have a more organized hierarchy does not reduce their meddling. Your dragon-friend's assurances aside, I would say that the unknown East suffered as much as Faerun; with more space and less value on human life (I am told), it was less noticed.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 16:20:58
The old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardback book in 2nd edition mentioned that the Celestial Beuracracy had been dropped down in avatar form, in the letter from Vangerdahast to Elminster.
As far as the gods of Kara-Tur go, because of how the Path and the Way were presented, only a handful of gods every really seemed important outside of the overall structure. The Celestial Emperor was in charge of the whole shebang, Black Leopard operated outside of the formal power structure, Dragon Claw worked to use the laws and his position to gain himself power (hey, he was lawful evil), and Mad Monkey went back and forth between working with the other gods and pursuing the greater good (he was chaotic good).
The Path and the Way venerated all of the gods at once, in different ways, though I always thought it was infuriating that we didn't get more details on how the two religions were different. The Ten Thousand Gods religion in Kozakura was more likely to specifically worship one god or another depending on the situation, and I beleive there was a mention of a god of intruige that ninjas erected a shrine to, but I'd have to look it up.
I always thought it would be interesting to see if some of the Faerun pantheon used different names and were part of the celestial beuraucracy, and Mystra almost seems to imply this to the prince in the Crucible, but again, nothing definate was ever really said. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 15:30:29
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
See also the PGtF at the end of the "Cosmology" section -- about the Spirit World.
I dont recall this ringing any bells with me when I first read it. Ill have to double check it when I get home though.
Thanks.
The PGtF details for the Spirit World are on pg. 165.
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| Jindael |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 15:26:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Kara-Tur boxed set covers the Celestial Bureaucracy and the religions of the various realms of the Kara-Tur. It's not available as a free download at WotC, but can be purchased as a PDF from paizo.com for just $4US.
Even at just $4, Im not so sure I really want this. My main interest in the deities is to see how well they would integrate into the main Faerun patheon, and how they would cross over for divine agents (A phrase Im using as a catch-all, considering how many different types of divine casters there are) who would be looking to promote cross-faith relations as ambassadors. If were stuck with Kara-Tur, then Id at least like to see a glimmer of the amount of detail regarding faith (and trade) that Ed Greenwood has put into the rest of the Realms. (Something I will ask in another topic).
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
See also the PGtF at the end of the "Cosmology" section -- about the Spirit World.
I dont recall this ringing any bells with me when I first read it. Ill have to double check it when I get home though.
Thanks.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 15:01:01
The Kara-Tur boxed set covers the Celestial Bureaucracy and the religions of the various realms of the Kara-Tur. It's not available as a free download at WotC, but can be purchased as a PDF from paizo.com for just $4US.
See also the PGtF at the end of the "Cosmology" section -- about the Spirit World.
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| Jindael |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 13:26:33
Where can I look at Kara-Tur Gods? Is there a download or a burried scroll here at Candlekeep? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 10:31:36
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If the Celestial Bureaucracy (if that is the term...) was not kicked out and walked the land in avatar form, it makes one wonder what power Ao really does have... admittedly I think about far too many things, but nonetheless if this is the same world the events of one part should, to a degree, also be mentioned elsewhere.
Admittedly, I can't find the reference now... But I recall it was written somewhere that the Celestial Bureaucracy was kicked out of the heavens along with everyone else, but instead of wandering around, they retreated to a mountain to contemplate what was going on.
Ao controls Realmspace -- not just Faerūn. No deity can have influence anywhere in Toril's solar system without Ao's approval. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 10:10:13
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Kara-Tur got a brief mention in Finders Bane. The party travel to the plane with all the dead Kara-Tur waiting to be judged, and stayed there themselves for a short while (I think it was called the Palace of Judgement?)
That's not the only reference... We have the Shou expatriates in Unapproachable East, Ishi Barasume from the comics (she's also appeared in Dragon, in a short story and in a full write-up), Prince Tang from Veiled Dragon and Crucible... |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 09:28:55
Kara-Tur got a brief mention in Finders Bane. The party travel to the plane with all the dead Kara-Tur waiting to be judged, and stayed there themselves for a short while (I think it was called the Palace of Judgement?) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 08:36:22
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
*SNIP lots*
Heck, Kara-Tur had things like the Copper Demon of Tros and the Acorn of Wo-Mei, but these things were hardly fleshed out.
If anyone ever tried to tackle the setting again, I think they need to be locked in a room with DVDs of Big Trouble in Little China, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and Inuyasha (my daughter's suggestion), and then told to make it all fit.
I'd add Kagemusha to that list of movies, just for the flavor of the film. Maybe also Chinese Ghost Story to see magic utilized in such a setting.
But certainly, if Kara-Tur was to be paid the proper respect, we would need to see a good deal of magic integrated into the place. Due to it being OOP I don't know what long term effects the Tuigan horde had on the area, if they were mentioned at all.
This lack of info regarding the consequences of RSE for the other parts of Toril is, to hair-atomizing me, more than annoying. Not because I desperately want to play there (although it might be interesting), but because I wanna know. (D'oh!)
Faerūn is not a micro-universe, at least in my opinion. Things like the Dlardrageth's war, Shade's return, hell even the ToT must have had impact on the other regions. If the Celestial Bureaucracy (if that is the term...) was not kicked out and walked the land in avatar form, it makes one wonder what power Ao really does have... admittedly I think about far too many things, but nonetheless if this is the same world the events of one part should, to a degree, also be mentioned elsewhere. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 05:15:42
I have really agreed with a lot of what Archwizard has said. I don't disagree with having an asian flavored continent to the east of Faerun, as long as its consistent in tone, more or less, with Faerun. In other words, a good deal of magic and a lot of high adventure. I definately wouldn't want to see Kara-Tur disappear, as even the minimal references to Shou Lung and other nations would make for some gaping continuity errors if it was retconned at this point.
I think part of the problem I saw with the setting is that while the setting had some events that were comparable to the big events of the past in Faerun, those events tended to be played down. In fact, some of them were mentioned in the modules and the timelines therein, and then not even mentioned in the boxed set when it came out.
For example, the Black Leopard Cult, Dragon Claw, Mad Monkey, the City of a Thousand Doors, and Krakentoa were all concepts that fit well with the Forgotten Realms, as was the binding of the Great Dragon to make the Dragonwall. But the boxed set featured more of the "psedo asian" history from the timelines, like Shou Lung and T'u Lung fighting, the Shoguns in Wa, the ninjas in Kozakura. Yeah, all of that can be fun, but you have to mix in some magic, high adventure, and some fairly obsurd still awesome monsters to have it match the scope of Faerun.
Heck, Kara-Tur had things like the Copper Demon of Tros and the Acorn of Wo-Mei, but these things were hardly fleshed out.
If anyone ever tried to tackle the setting again, I think they need to be locked in a room with DVDs of Big Trouble in Little China, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and Inuyasha (my daughter's suggestion), and then told to make it all fit.
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| Archwizard |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 00:54:28
Kara-Tur could also be one possible way to develop more FR material without having to extensively detail the areas that have been supposedly left for DM and personal Realms development, like Sembia. I think it's nice to have a few "blank" areas for PCs to stomp about in, but still have it neighboring (in)famous places in the Realms.
Meanwhile, some RSE level occurances could be taking place in Kara-Tur without always affecting Faerun proper. WotC sells books, players can have fun being part of the RSE, or just keep on going in the regular Realms. I think Kara-Tur, or at least the concept of an slightly Asian inspired continent right next to Faerun, represents a huge set of options that no one has officially taken advantage of yet. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 21:24:09
You raise a good point Mace.
However, it might make a interesting diversion really to do some works that tie Toril and Kara Tur more strongly together.
Plus, some regions of Faerun are so removed from Faerun they might as well be seperate settings so why not? ;-) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 13:26:34
The general problem with Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Al Qadim was/is that it is tacked onto the Realms. Since Faerūn in itself is an area bigger than the North American continent, and that area hasn't been thoroughly explored, adding anything to it would, in most instances, look like Taladas in the DragonLance setting. It just won't mix.
Although I have both the jurassic OA for 1st edition and the Kara Tur boxed set, it never really did have any appeal to me, same as Taladas.
Had Kara Tur been more involved in Realms publications, novels, short stories, and whatnot it might be different. As it is we never got a real chance to look into the history of that place, and with Faerūn's size, why bother? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 10:05:07
I agree utterly Archwizard.
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| Archwizard |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 09:58:30
I think we should see more of Kara-Tur, though I am afraid that if it is gone about the way I think it should (being a fan of FR heavily influenced by OA), it wouldn't resemble Kara-Tur much at all.
Kara-Tur is the underdeveloped and ignored entity that it is today because of both misfortune and mismanagement, at least those are my thoughts on it, unfounded as they may be. As a generic setting based almost directly on East Asia it does fine. It was TSR's inane marketing that placed it within FR that took it from it's niche and placed it into some place where it had no chance to produce traction on its own. It would have been great as the archetypal example demonstrating the concepts and mechanics of OA in action. Instead it was tagged onto a setting that while has certain generic high fantasy flavor, does it in a very distinct and memorable way. Plain old Kara-Tur never had a chance.
Another factor I think was timing. Old kung fu movies and Kurosawa films might have had a mild cult following back in the 80s, but probably not enough overlap between them and D&D fans to have a significant impact. Sales were not good enough compared to Western fantasy. Lumping it with FR probably also alienated some fans, either those who didn't want FR material or FR fans who thought they were getting a Realmsian version of Kara-Tur. In the end, Kara-Tur ended up in limbo, both in sales and in terms of lore.
I think that has changed now with more years for Asian culture to be exported to the Western world. There is interest, mainly in media with actors and movies being imported from China and Japan. Manga and anime is also huge, as are video games, many of which are made in Japan using Asian themes. And these trends are growing. OA could have done well now, but again, stupid marketing decision on the part of the company, this time WotC. Rolling Rokugan into OA was a terrible mistake. L5R fans generally seem to dislike Rokugan d20. It signaled the end of the d10 system they were used to, at least for a time, the system that is directly tied to their setting. They had to learn the quirks of this new system to get their L5R rpg fix. They also alienated Kara-Tur fans, disappointed that their preferred setting was thrown to the curb, reduced to a few lines mention in the FRCS. It defeated the purpose of publishing a 3e OA, to keep old fans and gain new fans from Rokugan. The remaining portion who just wanted OA for OA and not Rokugan and Kara-Tur was too small.
It also did not give players and DMs a good generic example that gave an overview of the various cultures of Asia. Rokugan is very heavily Japanese oriented, sprinkled only sparing with bits from China, India, etc. That limited choices and inspiration for gamers who wanted to have a generic OA setting to work from. Sales suffered again and it became a one shot. AEG published a few more books for Rokugan d20, but most of them came under a dual system policy, supporting both d20 and d10 rules, which was neither this or that. And now they've dropped the D&D aspect entirely and switched back to d10 (3rd edition for them as well).
My personal peeve with Kara-Tur being in FR is the blandness of it. Honestly, I think Greyhawk has more setting atmosphere and flair than Kara-Tur, and Greyhawk has become the default generic setting. While it makes an attempt to provide an intriguing place to adventure, it seems too ho hum to me. Unlike Faerun, the histories and cultures of Kara-Tur lack ... hype or pazzaz. Faerun had Netherese flying enclaves, scars upon the land from grand mishaps and elven high magic, Imaskari sorcerer-kings who dared defy the gods, empires and cultures that stretched across swaths of the continent and made their mark over millennia or after a few short shining decades. In comparison Kara-Tur seems demure. This despite being right next to Faerun with both sides quite capable of advanced travel magic or even magic that made long expeditions easier. That's not even how actual Asia was, and it seemed like they tried damn hard to portray Asia as historically and culturally accurate as possible in a fantasy setting with magic.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:35:39
Why would I want flames? I'd like people to agree or disagree if they feel strongly and discuss it. These forums are supposed to be fun though.
I stated what I think, I'd like to see more Kara-Tur as part of Faerun rather than as a seperate subline.
People are welcome to disagree. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:15:05
Play nice, people. |
| scererar |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:06:29
Charles, it seems to me that you started your own thread, just to tear it up later, after a few posts from other scribes. it almost seems that you intentionlly try to start little flame wars here on this fine web site. I mean, just look at the other threads you have started, I do beleive that almost everyone was locked do to this type of thing.
I personally think that more development or delving into a couple of novels that pertains to the region, would be fine. I agree with Wooly though, it should not be at the expense of current, or future realms lore. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 23:56:22
Let's face it, Al-Qadim will never be successful (not the least of which problem being its name now). Furthermore, to be blunt, the Realms already HAVE Al-Qadim in the Realms.
It's always annoyed me that there's Maztica and Al-Qadim in the Realms when there's already frickin Calisham and Chult. I mean, what really is the point of those places?
As for Kara-Tur, I think that frankly making it another setting is just ridiculous. If its in the Realms then MAKE IT PART OF THE REALMS is what I'm saying. I can't be the only one here who used to read the old Forgotten Realms comic books can I? One of my favorite characters was the Samurai Girl love interest of the Drunken Paladin (I admit, it's been AWHILE since I've read those comics)
Kara Tur frankly doesn't need to be developed as its own because its not its own world. It's part of Toril and we need to talk about stuff like its visitors to Cormyr, its wizards, and if we can hopefully figure a way to tie in the pantheons to it. The Moonshaes weren't made by Ed Greenwood either yet he eventually did his wonderful Halls of the High King adventure.
It doesn't have to be MUCH in the way of a setting for it. Just have some foreigner from Toril do the whole Shogun thing except High-fantasy style. Maybe Bane is becoming "The Dark Shogun" and plenty of other FR gods are going to invade like in the Moonshaes. Do some retconning so the gods are all fragments of the nature deities like they did with the Earthmother.
It can't be that hard. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 16:41:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't have any real interest in seeing any expanded Kara-Tur material in 3e under the FORGOTTEN REALMS brand. I'd rather game designers continue spending their time working with the core Realms that have been established as the focus of 3e since 2001.
That being said however... I wouldn't mind seeing Kara-Tur material in 3e that treats it as a complete and separate setting -- divorced from the Realms proper. At least then, it would be forced to grow and expand on its own internal themes completely with no further connection to FR.
I'm not saying I want to see it divorced from the Realms; I want it supported, but not at the cost of Realms stuff. I'd prefer to see it treated like a sub-setting, the way Al-Qadim was. Leaving it connected to the Realms, regardless of whether or not its under the FR imprint, doesn't bother me. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 16:16:02
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
WoTC called that, the Legend of the Five Rings 
The 3e OA/Lot5R was really more about the d20 connection that was growing from AEG with their Lot5R product line. James Wyatt has already said that...
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| scererar |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 15:54:46
WoTC called that, the Legend of the Five Rings
I would agree to a point, but I don't think that WoTC would develop or re-develop a new setting. Isn't Ebberon supposed to be the new, cool idea?
I would like to see more material on this subject, novels mostly. I liked the idea of the empires trilogy, at least the portions that took place in the Kara-Tur regions. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 15:41:07
I don't have any real interest in seeing any expanded Kara-Tur material in 3e under the FORGOTTEN REALMS brand. I'd rather game designers continue spending their time working with the core Realms that have been established as the focus of 3e since 2001.
That being said however... I wouldn't mind seeing Kara-Tur material in 3e that treats it as a complete and separate setting -- divorced from the Realms proper. At least then, it would be forced to grow and expand on its own internal themes completely with no further connection to FR.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 15:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
But I wouldn't mind some craziness to show HOW its different than Medieval China.
Well, so far as I know, medieval China didn't have a fleet of spelljammers, and their big ol' wall wasn't magical... 
But I do see your point. Though I'm not as interested in seeing it from a Realms standpoint, I am interested in seeing more of the Kara-Tur. I was highly disappointed that the 3E Oriental Adventures book had nothing to do with Kara-Tur. The original one was all Kara-Tur, back before it was bolted on to the Realms. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 07:40:18
Well its a bit TOO much like Medieval China (but it also has Japan pre-Shogun and Post-Shogun).
But I wouldn't mind some craziness to show HOW its different than Medieval China.
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| Brian R. James |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 05:18:25
Kara-Tur is no more based on medieval china than Faerūn is based on medieval Europe.
As for a novel, I suggest reading the Empires Trilogy if you have not yet done so. The second novel, Dragonwall, is set almost exclusively in Shou Lung of Kara-Tur.
Alos, check out http://www.geonomicon.com/chronology/temporum/kara-tur.htm for a history of Kara-Tur.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Nah....no, I don't think so for Kara Tur setting seemed very similar to miedeval china, allowing a novel based on this would kind of lack originality and confuse potential readers of FR.
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