| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Krendar |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 14:45:12
I just finished reading Resurrection and it got me to thinking about Lolth and her portfolio. Maybe I am worng, but I don't think she truly represents chaos. I imagine a chaotic diety granting spells on a whim. For example, even if you were a devout follower and in good standing with your diety, when you go to cast a spell, there is a high probability that she won't grant the spell. That I think is a good representation of a chaotic diety. I also think Lolth's church and drow society is too structured to represent a chaotic diety. I understand Lolth's backstory, but for true chaos, males and females should either both have equal status, or for true chaos have them constantly battling for upper status. These are just my thoughts. Any comments? |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 14:48:33
Ah, is there really a difference?  All semantics, my dear friend!
C-Fb |
| Krendar |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 14:46:24
I think it is more likely due to the chaotic ways of WoTC.  |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 03:27:36
And the very fact that we are trying to figure out her changing motives - well, that is somewhat of a testament to her chaotic ways.
C-Fb |
| warlockco |
Posted - 22 Nov 2005 : 03:06:25
quote:
Originally posted by Belthor
I don't think that it's really a question of wether or not She'd chaotic; it's how chaotic does she seem to be from description to discription. I think that she's the embodyment of chaos; just as it's stated.
Well Chaos is one of her Portfolios, which none of the other Drow gods have, yes they all have the Chaos Domain, but that is because they are all Chaotic in alignment. |
| Belthor |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 20:52:04
I don't think that it's really a question of wether or not She'd chaotic; it's how chaotic does she seem to be from description to discription. I think that she's the embodyment of chaos; just as it's stated. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 15:24:18
Well, seeming the whole Dark Elven race is hers, if she changed her dogmatic approach, her children would probably just adapt to her new laws and demands. It's not like Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are winning'em over in any numbers. G-boy (slime god) doesn't exactly have a huge faithful, either.
I think by rule of elimination, she'll keep the Drow no matter what.
C-Fb |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 15:20:01
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
If she does that, she will lose a lot of worshippers.
Isn't she losing them by the score already? :p |
| Feanor |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 15:14:19
quote:
Originally posted by Krendar
I just finished reading Resurrection and it got me to thinking about Lolth and her portfolio. Maybe I am worng, but I don't think she truly represents chaos. I imagine a chaotic diety granting spells on a whim. For example, even if you were a devout follower and in good standing with your diety, when you go to cast a spell, there is a high probability that she won't grant the spell. That I think is a good representation of a chaotic diety. I also think Lolth's church and drow society is too structured to represent a chaotic diety. I understand Lolth's backstory, but for true chaos, males and females should either both have equal status, or for true chaos have them constantly battling for upper status. These are just my thoughts. Any comments?
If she does that, she will lose a lot of worshippers. |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 20:08:34
I think of her this way. Imagine a god who is interested in the strength of her followers. The survival of the fittest. Now imagine that goddess thinking if they survive they are the fittest if they dont they are unworthy. So even plots against the chosen would be okay because she will survive if she is strong. If you think in this way it becomes the drow society where the craftiest rules until someone can figure out how to do away with them all along the blessings of the godess are given to everyone. Loths magic is not chaotic just her reasoning. Thus she heals Drizzt only to become a plaything later on I am sure. |
| Igneus Animus |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 19:24:02
True, we should consider the current edition as the "most canon" at any given time, but it just came to me that the description was changed. Nothing special implied there. Must be just because I usually play chaotic neutral characters. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 14:45:06
And don't forget, if she let her people be lawless, with no hierarchy or structure - she would probably end up with a lot less followers (as in the would kill themselves off).
As KnightErrantJR said, Lolth has done many truly strange things that have left her people in the wings. Choosing Liriel, abandoning her people to worry about her transformation but still demanding worship, choosing a servant who openly betrayed youto now serve your justice?
I have to say she's chaotic - just by rule of elimination.
C-Fb |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 11:03:49
Although personally, I think alignments have for the most part been in the same vein. I think 3rd edition tried to clarify and simplify alignments for newcomers and to be able to give a quick summary better. I don't think the intention was to make alignments actually different from what they were.
All that being said, abondoning your followers without giving them any warning doesn't sound Chaotic? Choosing one of your chosen despite the fact that she isn't really a devout worshipper (Liriel in the Starlight and Shadows books) isn't chaotic? In a setting where there are obviously other gods, you demand that only you are worshipped, to the point of almost denying that any other beings are divine? Having your servants play elaborate games of one upmanship on one another while watching them tear each other appart isn't choatic?
I know Lolth has a strict heirarchy, but as some other posters have pointed out, she has laws that must be obeyed, with the strictest penalties of you don't obey them, unless of course you can get away with doing the act in question with no witnessess, in which case, you get rewarded for you skill. Also, Lolth has a stated goal of bringing the Underdark under the rule of the drow, then returning to the surface to destroy the hated elves, but her rules and laws keep the drow from being united enough to do this.
I guess she seems plenty chaotic to me. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 05:30:07
Well if you insist we have this from 2nd Edition (OK you did not insist)
quote:
Chaotic Neutral: Chaotic neutral characters believe that there is no order to anything, including their own actions. With this as a guiding principle, they tend to follow whatever whim strikes them at the moment. Good and evil are irrelevant when making a decision. Chaotic neutral characters are extremely difficult to deal with. Such characters have been known to cheerfully and for no apparent purpose gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single die. They are almost totally unreliable. In fact, the only reliable thing about them is that they cannot be relied upon! This alignment is perhaps the most difficult to play. Lunatics and madmen tend toward chaotic neutral behavior.
and from 3rd we have
quote:
Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.
Indeed a difference. I and most others do tend to answer questions based of current versions as oposed to past ones, unless question is directly asked about a prior Edition or version. Besides that _Resurrection_ was written during 3.x life as oposed to being an older book that might have been written under 2nd rules as a guide. *Grin*
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| Igneus Animus |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 23:32:26
There are different descriptions for certain alignments in different editions as well - chaotic neutral has different description in the 3E than it had in 2E, if my memory serves me correctly. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Nov 2005 : 15:01:04
Alignment allways gets to be a bit of a problem.
Chaos is that which oposes rational conduct of Law, not just random actions.
Things like killing third son is not what a Lawful society would do for example. Drow society endorses all sorts of unlawful things under this standard, promotion though assasination, slavery and so on. Drow communities do have laws but if one can figure out how to break them without getting caught they are honored rather then condemned.
quote:
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.
Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
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