| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ode904 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 22:15:39
a |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 15:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I like too many characters to choose...
Same for me.
Also what's with so many people liking Elaith, I couldn't stand the guy, I hated him so much. When Elain Cunningham post the first chapter of her canceled book in which he died I felt so good. I know I'm talking about a fictional character but damn he always got on my nerves.
To me he's right there with Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton (the one from the books), Professor Umbridge, Commissar Beige, pretty much any eldar from a 40k novel, pretty much any elf from a Dgragonlance novel and Jar-Jar.
I think that's a highly unfair comparison. Joffrey was a pathetic, spoiled brat. Bolton appears to have some serious psychological issues and should likely be in a secure facility. And Professor Umbridge was sanctimonious to the point of maliciousness -- she was practically a cariacature of those people that equate authority with morality and superiority.
Elaith, on the other hand, was never so simple as any of those people. He wasn't a brat, he wasn't crazy, and he didn't act like he was better than anyone around him -- instead, he lacked the ability to find his own way and simply followed whatever course someone else laid out for him. He was determined to be the best at his chosen path; his weakness lay in finding the path for himself.
And unlike Joffrey, Bolton, or Umbridge (I'm unfamiliar with the rest), Elaith goes through a lot of personal growth through the series, realizing he could in fact determine his own path and then working to follow it.
Elaith is interesting because he's not just a simple, one-note character. He's evil, yes, but you can understand and sympathize with him a lot better than you can with a spoiled brat or a smug caricature of twisted authority. He grows as a character, and even enters into that odd position of redemption without reformation.
For my money, there's no more intriguing a villain to be found in the Realms, and precious few as interesting anywhere else. A villain that you can understand and sympathize with is far more interesting than Random Bad Guy #17, no matter how powerful the latter is.
Got to go with Wooly on this one. Elaine has several of the most fully developed characters is the realms and Elaith is hardly and exception.
He is cold, calculating, meticulous, and dangerous - but he also is the shadow of the ideal elf (which is what he was, or at least believed he was, as a noble royal guard of Evermeet).
He is loyal - to the point of practicality - and he responds to betrayal with swift lethality.
He is honorable - but conniving - and walks and a blades edge of following the letter of an agreement.
He is past the simple pride of elves and instead feels an abiding disdain of the 'lesser' races which is only overcome by the usefulness of individuals
He is greedy and selfish - but he is capable of incredible self-sacrifice (which is how he rekindled his family's blade)
He can be capricious and cruel, toying with his foes like a cat - or he can be swift and deadly like the Serpent he is known for - or in the rarest of moments he can be merciful.
So far, the best scene (in my opinion) that shows a window into Elaith's depth is when he does a ritual blade dance in the novel Elfsong, it was this moment is when Danilo first realized Elaith was something more than a Waterdeep crime lord. It revealed in Elaith a reservoir of elven magic, tradition, and beauty that outstripped the bard's ability to wholly comprehend all held back behind a damn of conflict, contempt and anger.
I don't think eeory was comparing Elaith to Joffrey and those other characters. Looks like he was just lumping him in with other characters who he didn't care for. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 06:31:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I like too many characters to choose...
Same for me.
Also what's with so many people liking Elaith, I couldn't stand the guy, I hated him so much. When Elain Cunningham post the first chapter of her canceled book in which he died I felt so good. I know I'm talking about a fictional character but damn he always got on my nerves.
To me he's right there with Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton (the one from the books), Professor Umbridge, Commissar Beige, pretty much any eldar from a 40k novel, pretty much any elf from a Dgragonlance novel and Jar-Jar.
I think that's a highly unfair comparison. Joffrey was a pathetic, spoiled brat. Bolton appears to have some serious psychological issues and should likely be in a secure facility. And Professor Umbridge was sanctimonious to the point of maliciousness -- she was practically a cariacature of those people that equate authority with morality and superiority.
Elaith, on the other hand, was never so simple as any of those people. He wasn't a brat, he wasn't crazy, and he didn't act like he was better than anyone around him -- instead, he lacked the ability to find his own way and simply followed whatever course someone else laid out for him. He was determined to be the best at his chosen path; his weakness lay in finding the path for himself.
And unlike Joffrey, Bolton, or Umbridge (I'm unfamiliar with the rest), Elaith goes through a lot of personal growth through the series, realizing he could in fact determine his own path and then working to follow it.
Elaith is interesting because he's not just a simple, one-note character. He's evil, yes, but you can understand and sympathize with him a lot better than you can with a spoiled brat or a smug caricature of twisted authority. He grows as a character, and even enters into that odd position of redemption without reformation.
For my money, there's no more intriguing a villain to be found in the Realms, and precious few as interesting anywhere else. A villain that you can understand and sympathize with is far more interesting than Random Bad Guy #17, no matter how powerful the latter is.
Got to go with Wooly on this one. Elaine has several of the most fully developed characters is the realms and Elaith is hardly and exception.
He is cold, calculating, meticulous, and dangerous - but he also is the shadow of the ideal elf (which is what he was, or at least believed he was, as a noble royal guard of Evermeet).
He is loyal - to the point of practicality - and he responds to betrayal with swift lethality.
He is honorable - but conniving - and walks and a blades edge of following the letter of an agreement.
He is past the simple pride of elves and instead feels an abiding disdain of the 'lesser' races which is only overcome by the usefulness of individuals
He is greedy and selfish - but he is capable of incredible self-sacrifice (which is how he rekindled his family's blade)
He can be capricious and cruel, toying with his foes like a cat - or he can be swift and deadly like the Serpent he is known for - or in the rarest of moments he can be merciful.
So far, the best scene (in my opinion) that shows a window into Elaith's depth is when he does a ritual blade dance in the novel Elfsong, it was this moment is when Danilo first realized Elaith was something more than a Waterdeep crime lord. It revealed in Elaith a reservoir of elven magic, tradition, and beauty that outstripped the bard's ability to wholly comprehend all held back behind a damn of conflict, contempt and anger.
|
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 23:32:32
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
Fair enough. Still, I'm unlikely to change my opinion on this matter, I've also read that one novel (can't remember the name right now, I think it was called just "Waterdeep" by Ed and Elain) about a bunch of nobles and a monster-cult that he was featured in, this was the one where he annoyed me the most.
The City of Splendors is the book you are thinking about. I too didn't care for Elaith in that book, though I didn't mind him in other books. |
| Mooria |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 22:01:32
Mirt the Moneylender! The essence of Warwedeep. Durnan comes in on a close second.. Btw, Mirt is also EG's fav char ;) |
| Schreckstoff |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 21:13:19
Farideh didn't exist back then, but her atm.
Urgh why isn't it december already. Looking more forward to it than Star Wars. |
| eeorey |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 22:50:09
Fair enough. Still, I'm unlikely to change my opinion on this matter, I've also read that one novel (can't remember the name right now, I think it was called just "Waterdeep" by Ed and Elain) about a bunch of nobles and a monster-cult that he was featured in, this was the one where he annoyed me the most. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 22:36:21
I'd recommend re-reading those books with a closer eye to his development...
...But in the meantime, I'll leave it at that.  |
| eeorey |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 21:42:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How many of the Songs & Swords books have you read? Because if you've not read all of the books, you've not gotten the full picture. Elaith really grows across the span of those books. He remains ruthless and continues to lean towards evil, but there is a whole lot more to him than just being a successful crime lord.
All of them minus Thornhold, and I just don't feel like his character growth is that large, yes he gets a friend and doesn't kill EVERYBODY he meets. But I just feel like he is now putting on a mask of what he feels a father should be and projects his desire to be what he thought he was before the moon-blade rejected him on to his daughter.
I see that this isn't the popular opinion and I by no means think that he was badly written. I just think he is overrated. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 18:08:00
How many of the Songs & Swords books have you read? Because if you've not read all of the books, you've not gotten the full picture. Elaith really grows across the span of those books. He remains ruthless and continues to lean towards evil, but there is a whole lot more to him than just being a successful crime lord. |
| eeorey |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 16:46:32
Wooly I get where you are coming from, but I just don't see it like that.
First I compared him with those other characters not because of what i believe they have in common but because they all irritated me on a shared level (that is "greatly irritated me"). And I personally don't find him as complex at all, he was definitely acting like he was better than everyone around him, he was both arrogant and condescending particularly to humans and dwarfs but also other elves (at least I found him to be such), and to me it seemed that he was simply projecting his own failures on the people around him to feel better about himself (something usually associated with the more "simple" rather than complex people).
I don't even see his supposed "fall from grace" as such if the moon-blade has rejected him doesn't that mean that he was basically always an undeserving of it individual?
Yes he is intelligent and cunning but then again he is hardly the only one. The part where he is party to/controls so much illegal business (it was mention in both the novels and this forum that it went as far as slavery) and is never confronted about that fact even though he is constantly in contact with so many good aligned characters is mind-blowing to me.
And in all the stuff I read he never came up with anything TRULY masterful, he was cunning and managed to turn some tables yes, but he was never a true mastermind of a villain.
From where I'm looking at things he is hardly the most complex villain in the Realms. He is a criminal leader who doesn't really have an interesting agenda, he is just someone who has found a way to smooch off of the city he lives in and has taken control of others who aren't able to do it as well as him, exactly like a criminal leader/prince/king-pin (I'm struggling to find a title that fits) and he keeps on doing that because that's pretty much what he is good at. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 22:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I like too many characters to choose...
Same for me.
Also what's with so many people liking Elaith, I couldn't stand the guy, I hated him so much. When Elain Cunningham post the first chapter of her canceled book in which he died I felt so good. I know I'm talking about a fictional character but damn he always got on my nerves.
To me he's right there with Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton (the one from the books), Professor Umbridge, Commissar Beige, pretty much any eldar from a 40k novel, pretty much any elf from a Dgragonlance novel and Jar-Jar.
I think that's a highly unfair comparison. Joffrey was a pathetic, spoiled brat. Bolton appears to have some serious psychological issues and should likely be in a secure facility. And Professor Umbridge was sanctimonious to the point of maliciousness -- she was practically a cariacature of those people that equate authority with morality and superiority.
Elaith, on the other hand, was never so simple as any of those people. He wasn't a brat, he wasn't crazy, and he didn't act like he was better than anyone around him -- instead, he lacked the ability to find his own way and simply followed whatever course someone else laid out for him. He was determined to be the best at his chosen path; his weakness lay in finding the path for himself.
And unlike Joffrey, Bolton, or Umbridge (I'm unfamiliar with the rest), Elaith goes through a lot of personal growth through the series, realizing he could in fact determine his own path and then working to follow it.
Elaith is interesting because he's not just a simple, one-note character. He's evil, yes, but you can understand and sympathize with him a lot better than you can with a spoiled brat or a smug caricature of twisted authority. He grows as a character, and even enters into that odd position of redemption without reformation.
For my money, there's no more intriguing a villain to be found in the Realms, and precious few as interesting anywhere else. A villain that you can understand and sympathize with is far more interesting than Random Bad Guy #17, no matter how powerful the latter is. |
| eeorey |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 17:23:04
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
I like too many characters to choose...
Same for me.
Also what's with so many people liking Elaith, I couldn't stand the guy, I hated him so much. When Elain Cunningham post the first chapter of her canceled book in which he died I felt so good. I know I'm talking about a fictional character but damn he always got on my nerves.
To me he's right there with Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton (the one from the books), Professor Umbridge, Commissar Beige, pretty much any eldar from a 40k novel, pretty much any elf from a Dgragonlance novel and Jar-Jar. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 14:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
The man, the hero, Giogi Wyvernspur.
<3 I love the love for Giogi. |
| RK |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 06:55:24
Really liking the new version of Regis. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2015 : 23:11:47
I like too many characters to choose... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 02:15:34
If we include deities, my fave has to be Eilistraee. Otherwise, my vote goes to Liriel. |
| charger_ss24 |
Posted - 08 Aug 2015 : 02:12:28
I became a big fan of Drasek Riven. He's one bad dude, but I love his soft spot for his "girls". |
| Veritas |
Posted - 03 Aug 2015 : 00:02:06
The man, the hero, Giogi Wyvernspur. |
| Scimitars of Drizzt |
Posted - 02 Aug 2015 : 17:24:08
I didn't read every response to this thread, but I would imagine that I'm the first person to say Morik the Rogue!
Morik! |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 31 Jul 2015 : 18:43:24
Any of the Seven Sisters... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 07 Jun 2015 : 16:18:11
That's a hard one. I'm also a fan of characters that weren't listed, but I voted for Jarlaxle |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 07 Jun 2015 : 16:00:39
I'm more of a fan of Artemis Entreri than is perhaps healthy to be... >_> |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 08:23:25
Too much Evermead, or something I read but completely misunderstood..because of Evermead, probably. So yeah. Elvermead :) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 03:15:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
My favorite is Minsc/Boo (they count as one!).
I haven't read many novels (yet), but so far I have to be honest and say I haven't met a great character yet, which is strange considering how thoroughly vast the potential for great characters and stories is. What have I read..let's see: 'The Companions' (stopped at 50%, I couldn't take it anymore); 'Red Magic' (I managed to finish it but it required willpower), 'Realms of Valor' (some okay, some terrible), 'Once Around the Realms' (really?), the Avatar trilogy (my eyes still bleed). Currently reading 'Azure Bonds' as I decided to get cracking on that lengthy list of FR novels somewhat chronologically (I know there are earlier stories but '..Bonds' is what I have right now to read.
In the many sourcebooks there are many fun or intriguing characters, though. I like Elminster, I like his scribe (until I realized he's a robot or something?! anyone care to explain?) and I like Elminster and Volo as a duo through their footnotes in the Volo-guides..
..right! My vote goes to Volo :)
I'm curious as to how you arrived at the robot assumption for poor Llhaeo?
Too much Evermead perhaps? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 00:34:25
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
My favorite is Minsc/Boo (they count as one!).
I haven't read many novels (yet), but so far I have to be honest and say I haven't met a great character yet, which is strange considering how thoroughly vast the potential for great characters and stories is. What have I read..let's see: 'The Companions' (stopped at 50%, I couldn't take it anymore); 'Red Magic' (I managed to finish it but it required willpower), 'Realms of Valor' (some okay, some terrible), 'Once Around the Realms' (really?), the Avatar trilogy (my eyes still bleed). Currently reading 'Azure Bonds' as I decided to get cracking on that lengthy list of FR novels somewhat chronologically (I know there are earlier stories but '..Bonds' is what I have right now to read.
In the many sourcebooks there are many fun or intriguing characters, though. I like Elminster, I like his scribe (until I realized he's a robot or something?! anyone care to explain?) and I like Elminster and Volo as a duo through their footnotes in the Volo-guides..
..right! My vote goes to Volo :)
I'm curious as to how you arrived at the robot assumption for poor Llhaeo? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 20:58:09
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Lol! Well, Tethyrian prince in hiding *is* better than robot, I have no idea why I thought that. "Tethyrian prince" is trite, perhaps, but, yes, better ^^
Keep in mind that at that point in the timeline, almost all of the the Tethyrian royalty and nobility had been slain during the Ten Black Days of Eleint. The country was in chaos for decades. |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 20:24:19
Lol! Well, Tethyrian prince in hiding *is* better than robot, I have no idea why I thought that. "Tethyrian prince" is trite, perhaps, but, yes, better ^^ |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 20:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
I like Elminster, I like his scribe (until I realized he's a robot or something?! anyone care to explain?) and I like Elminster and Volo as a duo through their footnotes in the Volo-guides..
Not sure how you came to the robot conclusion... He's actually a Tethyrian prince in hiding. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 20:04:10
No one picked Regis?  |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 18:49:12
My favorite is Minsc/Boo (they count as one!).
I haven't read many novels (yet), but so far I have to be honest and say I haven't met a great character yet, which is strange considering how thoroughly vast the potential for great characters and stories is. What have I read..let's see: 'The Companions' (stopped at 50%, I couldn't take it anymore); 'Red Magic' (I managed to finish it but it required willpower), 'Realms of Valor' (some okay, some terrible), 'Once Around the Realms' (really?), the Avatar trilogy (my eyes still bleed). Currently reading 'Azure Bonds' as I decided to get cracking on that lengthy list of FR novels somewhat chronologically (I know there are earlier stories but '..Bonds' is what I have right now to read.
In the many sourcebooks there are many fun or intriguing characters, though. I like Elminster, I like his scribe (until I realized he's a robot or something?! anyone care to explain?) and I like Elminster and Volo as a duo through their footnotes in the Volo-guides..
..right! My vote goes to Volo :) |
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