| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Paec_djinn |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 12:14:18
http://www.livejournal.com/users/paulskemp/
quote:
Withdrawal from Realms of Elves
Well, I withdrew from Realms of Elves. This bums me out only because I think Rich Baker has done a great job with his trilogy and I wanted to be part of it. Realms of Elves was conceived to be (and will be) a different anthology than previous "Realms of...." books, in that there will be fewer authors, each writing a novella length story rather than a short story. It was an honor to be handpicked to write one of those stories (there's good company in this book), and I wrestled long and hard with the question of whether I should withdraw.
So, why did I withdraw? Candidly, I just have too much going on and want to focus my creative energy entirely on the next Cale/RSE trilogy. My writing time is limited by family and day job requirements, so I really need to pick my spots. Cale and crew are my spot.
There it is.
So that makes two after Elaine Cunningham (read her question thread for more). Very unfortunate news indeed. I do understand Mr. Kemp's situation though. A lawyer, with two new kids. Must have been tough even with his current trilogy. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 15:30:27
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I can surely trust reviews when the reviews are about the lore and facts... At least, I can from certain trusted sages. ;)
And those would generally be the ones that are "dead on." 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I fear we've left the topic... 
We were, I suppose, discussing the various elf subraces and the stereotypes thereof within the context of this anthology, but I suppose that's quite fair. The wooly one has spoken! 
Cheers
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 02:46:17
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
*Laughs* She's cute, Rino. And thanks for the support. :)
You're welcome! And I'm so happy you think Sundra's cute--I designed her as a cute character. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 02:45:05
*Laughs* She's cute, Rino. And thanks for the support. :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 02:36:46
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The latest novels by Rich Baker sort of set up the 'traditional' Sun Elves as very obvious antagonists, which is never good in a novel (or group of them) centering around the readers actively wanting the protagonists to win, because they can all too easily be construed as true villains.
I really hope that I'm not just coming off as whining, here...
Nope! I've always agreed with this, and it's probably possible to dig up my comments on Forsaken House and Farthest Reach and see what I wrote about those "council scenes". Not only do those scenes paint the traditionalists in the worst possible light, but I also just don't like "council scenes" that seem too one-sided, where it's obvious that the protagonist is "right" and everyone else is "wrong".
quote:
I know many of the older gamers I've talked to agree, and Elaine, but I haven't heard anything about the newer designers or authors as to this phenomenon. The fact that Rich wanted to "rehabilitate" the Elves makes it seem like there was something "wrong" with them in the first place (the Sun Elves in particular), when in fact they were just different...
I agree...I don't think there was anything wrong with the race, just how it was perceived (and portrayed).
I love gold elf (and half gold elf) characters with all my heart...but in the end, my "elven muse" has to be my somewhat "out to lunch" moon elf rogue/wizard--Sundra Starflower (micro is by atlas, not me!):
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2976/sundrastarflower1bk.png |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 01:20:37
I can surely trust reviews when the reviews are about the lore and facts... At least, I can from certain trusted sages. ;) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 01:09:14
Ah, Dan, you can't trust *reviews*.
Unless, of course, they happen to be dead on.
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:40:05
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Cormanthyr states that they started out as a Gold Elf clan, and the majority of Gold Elves left, and the younger Moon Elves were the dominant subrace. At the time of the printing of that supplement, Venali Starym was a NE Moon Elf, and he was the Patriarch; the only Sun Elf mentioned in the house at that time was Josidiah Starym, who was LG. :)
The 3E supplement calls it a Gold Elf Clan exclusively, which is misleading, because it makes one think that the Gold Elf Clan Starym murdered Iravae... When they were a Moon Elf Clan by that point, for the most part. The Gold Elf Staryms had already left the realm; Josidiah was the last of that 'line' so to speak. He was the "true" heir.
EDIT: Venali was the "fake" heir, his father was the Patriarch - who was LE and a 19th level Fighter. Scary. But he was a Moon Elf, too. As of 261 DR, Josidiah's the only Sun Elf mentioned after that point in House Starym. The rest all left with Myth Drannor was founded.
LEoF does mention some members of the clan returning to claim the moonblade, and the guy that corrupted it. So even that source makes it obvious that the clan is mixed, despite earlier calling it a sun elf clan.
But I fear we've left the topic... |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:16:45
quote:
Indeed. I just think: "sun elves are sun elves." Making generalizations isn't true to reality, I don't think. My characters just are who they are.
Well, I still think it's somewhat important to take into account the cultures of the subraces, obviously. But within that (very rough) framework, I think it's good to show some of the "normal," as well as the "abnormal." This makes sure one is properly knowledgable in the lore and culture of the subrace (or race, beyond elves) at hand, and gives a sort of groundwork for more... Atypical characters to bounce off of.
quote:
Well thanks -- I hope you know, that wasn't my intention. I just enjoy conversing with you about all this. It's been quite fun.
You know, a few used copies of Ghostwalker are for sale on Amazon for about $3.
(Whoop -- shouldn't have said that. )
I didn't suspect it was your intention, but it was the result anyway. :)
And, sadly, the only thing I'll be buying off of Amazon any time soon are my textbooks - and that's out of my parents' money (or perhaps the bank's, via a loan). I have approximately 2 dollars to my name right now, and my Linear Algebra and Math Physics textbooks alone cost about 200 dollars...
quote:
I think RotE has a good mix of typical, atypical, and otherwise characters. I know I never try to make my characters go any way -- they're just who they are as I need them in each novel.
It just seemed like, from the reviews I've heard from various people, Sun Elves were presented once more as corruptable, evil, and demonic. While you've made it quite clear that it wasn't your intention to perpetuate this rumor (and I believe you, in fact ;) ), the fact that there were no more "typical" Sun Elves represented in the short stories highlighted the "Evil" (or at least "Not-Good") ones more than they should have been... A story like the one written by RAS in Realms of Magic about josidiah Starym would have been wonderful.
The latest novels by Rich Baker sort of set up the 'traditional' Sun Elves as very obvious antagonists, which is never good in a novel (or group of them) centering around the readers actively wanting the protagonists to win, because they can all too easily be construed as true villains.
I really hope that I'm not just coming off as whining, here... I know many of the older gamers I've talked to agree, and Elaine, but I haven't heard anything about the newer designers or authors as to this phenomenon. The fact that Rich wanted to "rehabilitate" the Elves makes it seem like there was something "wrong" with them in the first place (the Sun Elves in particular), when in fact they were just different... By "rehabilitating" them, it makes them into little more than Moon Elves at best, it seems.
quote:
On one level, "tGT" seems like a typical, even cliche cast: a sun elf wizardess without much in the way of morality, a sun elf treasure hunter (and what class? 2e's ever classic fighter/mage/thief!) who's a little snooty, and a moon elf thief.
Gasp! Awesome cast! I want!
quote:
I'd be interested in hearing what you think of "tGT," if you'd be interested in reading/letting me know: ESdB's email or this thread, or perhaps the Hunting Game thread in the Book Club (that's always cool -- it coming back every so often over a number of months.)
I'll certainly let you know, via at least one of the above methods, once I get to it. :) I already have a couple novels on my plate right now, so it may be awhile... |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 21:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Thanks a lot, Erik. It's good to hear that your reason for making your Sun Elf evil wasn't because "Sun Elves are evil!" There's far too much of that going around.
Indeed. I just think: "sun elves are sun elves." Making generalizations isn't true to reality, I don't think. My characters just are who they are.
quote:
Speaking with you on the boards has indeed made me want to read your books all the more. :) Next time I get some cash to spend at Border's (cough, I've spent about 350 dollars this summer), I'll be picking up Ghost Walker.
Well thanks -- I hope you know, that wasn't my intention. I just enjoy conversing with you about all this. It's been quite fun.
You know, a few used copies of Ghostwalker are for sale on Amazon for about $3.
(Whoop -- shouldn't have said that. )
quote:
I already have Realms of the Elves, but part of the reason I was discouraged from reading it, was because I was kind of tired of reading about overly-atypical characters. Atypical characters are just fine, and can be fun, provided they're not made JUST to "go against the norm" - sort of the same reason I dislike "nonconformists." ;)
Absolutely. See above.
I think RotE has a good mix of typical, atypical, and otherwise characters. I know I never try to make my characters go any way -- they're just who they are as I need them in each novel.
On one level, "tGT" seems like a typical, even cliche cast: a sun elf wizardess without much in the way of morality, a sun elf treasure hunter (and what class? 2e's ever classic fighter/mage/thief!) who's a little snooty, and a moon elf thief.
But on another level, well, you've read what I've said about it. Anything but typical or cliche.
'Course, that's just MY interpretation of the meaning. It might mean something very different to you. I write stories like Tool writes and performs songs: they're all open to interpretation.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think of "tGT," if you'd be interested in reading/letting me know: ESdB's email or this thread, or perhaps the Hunting Game thread in the Book Club (that's always cool -- it coming back every so often over a number of months.)
Cheers |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 21:10:06
Thanks a lot, Erik. It's good to hear that your reason for making your Sun Elf evil wasn't because "Sun Elves are evil!" There's far too much of that going around.
Speaking with you on the boards has indeed made me want to read your books all the more. :) Next time I get some cash to spend at Border's (cough, I've spent about 350 dollars this summer), I'll be picking up Ghost Walker. I already have Realms of the Elves, but part of the reason I was discouraged from reading it, was because I was kind of tired of reading about overly-atypical characters. Atypical characters are just fine, and can be fun, provided they're not made JUST to "go against the norm" - sort of the same reason I dislike "nonconformists." ;) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 21:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Both, actually. :)
Just something to halt the increasingly-common, self-perpetuating myth that Sun Elves are in some way more innately corruptable and evil than moon elves.
Ah, I gotcha.
Re: "Greater Treasure," I must concede my participation in this. It appears, at first glance, that I am doing my part to perpetuate it. Although. . . .
***** GREATER TREASURE SPOILERS ***********
I should make it clear that Cythara wasn't so much corrupted to evil as chose -- herself, without being forced, by any side -- to conquer it and make it her own, for the power it would grant. Damned if anyone's going to tell her what to do.
So hers was more of a personal choice.
Now, of course, you can call that being corrupted by evil, and you wouldn't be on very shaky ground, but it has nothing to do with her race or "nature" -- besides, perhaps, being tired of her brother's obstinate incompetence.
She just *happens* to be a sun elf, and is because Yldar is, and Yldar is because I wanted him to represent the old, glorious, fading tradition of the elven race, in opposition to Twilight, who is the young, capable of change, evolving face of the elves. Classicism vs. Progressivism is at play here, showing the pros and cons of both sides.
***** END SPOILERS ***********
quote:
People who have held such opinions seem to always just write off their arrogance and elitism as "evil," and not analyze the actual facts and NPCs we have of lore.
Hear hear!
In "tGT," I tried carefully not to make Yldar's arrogance and elitism (as a sun elf) come off as evil -- perhaps blinding, and he comes to see past it, but also capable of some great things, like honor and loyalty. By contrast to him, Cythara isn't arrogant or elitist at all, and she's a sun.
quote:
Elaine has personally expressed her weariness of this stereotype, and for good reason!
Agreed!
I heartily enjoy the elven cultures of the Realms and appreciate, very much, seeing your own appreciation and fervor about them.
Cheers |
| Sarephim |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:57:41
Personally I liked the story with the Drow hunters the best. That startling moment when you see how the Hunters have become the very thing they hate most...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146
German philosopher (1844 - 1900)
|
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:26:12
Cormanthyr states that they started out as a Gold Elf clan, and the majority of Gold Elves left, and the younger Moon Elves were the dominant subrace. At the time of the printing of that supplement, Venali Starym was a NE Moon Elf, and he was the Patriarch; the only Sun Elf mentioned in the house at that time was Josidiah Starym, who was LG. :)
The 3E supplement calls it a Gold Elf Clan exclusively, which is misleading, because it makes one think that the Gold Elf Clan Starym murdered Iravae... When they were a Moon Elf Clan by that point, for the most part. The Gold Elf Staryms had already left the realm; Josidiah was the last of that 'line' so to speak. He was the "true" heir.
EDIT: Venali was the "fake" heir, his father was the Patriarch - who was LE and a 19th level Fighter. Scary. But he was a Moon Elf, too. As of 261 DR, Josidiah's the only Sun Elf mentioned after that point in House Starym. The rest all left with Myth Drannor was founded. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:22:03
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
We had the Staryms changed from a Moon Elf Clan to a Sun Elf one;
Nope. The Starym were always a mixed-race clan. Some were gold elves, some were moon elves. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 19:29:51
Both, actually. :)
Just something to halt the increasingly-common, self-perpetuating myth that Sun Elves are in some way more innately corruptable and evil than moon elves. People who have held such opinions seem to always just write off their arrogance and elitism as "evil," and not analyze the actual facts and NPCs we have of lore. Elaine has personally expressed her weariness of this stereotype, and for good reason!
3E, in general, in all texts, seems to have worked hard at demonizing standard Ar-Tel'Quessir culture (either by making their more Lawful culture antagonistic, or by presenting Evil characters). We had the Staryms changed from a Moon Elf Clan to a Sun Elf one; we had the Vyshaanti the definite casters of the Killing Storm, which wasn't true previously... And the like.
I'm just a bit weary of having to enlighten people to the fact that, statistically, Sun Elves are only slightly more evil than moon elves (about 6-7%), and that individual stats aside, culturally speaking, they still tend strongly towards Good (and in part Law), and that the cases we have of evil Sun Elves are abberations - the Dlardrageths, the Vyshaanti, and the Eldreth Veluuthra (which contains just as many Wood/Wild Elves nowadays as Sun Elves) are all seen as terrible abominations and organizations to be destroyed... And the fact that evil moon elves are just as common, it's just that their ambitions aren't so great.
Ahem.
Sorry. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 19:17:13
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I would have liked to have seen some Good Sun Elves. ;)
"Good" as in "good-aligned" or "good" as in "well-written" or "awesome"?
Cheers |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:06:00
I would have liked to have seen some Good Sun Elves. ;) |
| TheGato |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:03:34
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I hope you enjoy the ending as well.
Do not abandon all hope, my friend. What I said is that there are no stories out there AT THE MOMENT. It's always possible I'll write more about this particular beautiful liar.
And I expect I may do just that, with the positive feedback I've received (though I suppose Twilight's fate is up to Wizards to decide). I am, as always, their servant in this regard.
On another note: If you have enjoyed the other stories in this excellent anthology, please consider writing a review and putting it up on Amazon. That's the best way to get publicity out about WotC books, it seems.
Cheers
I did enjoy the ending, as a matter of fact, I enjoyed the whole story! Very well done sir. I tip my hat to you. ;)
Ah yes her fate certainly lies in the hands of WotC... I do hope they give you a go ahead for more on Twilight.
On another note regaurding Realms of the Elves.. I kind of dont care for the Drizzt story being in there. I mean havnt we seen/read enough about him already? Aside from that the story should have been able to stand alone on its own.. Ive only read the Dark Elf Trilogy, so I often felt lost, or at least questioning just what the hells is going on...
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by TheGato
quote:
No other stories out there about Twilight, I'm afraid.
Now thats a shame!
Im about to finish this story tonight when I get home from work. I started it last night, and unfortuantly pesky work got in the way of reading... Its a great story though, totally sucked me in!
BUT, Im really enjoying her character a lot! She's very interesting, and fun to read about.
Id LOVE to read more of her!
Well, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I hope you enjoy the ending as well.
Do not abandon all hope, my friend. What I said is that there are no stories out there AT THE MOMENT. It's always possible I'll write more about this particular beautiful liar.
And I expect I may do just that, with the positive feedback I've received (though I suppose Twilight's fate is up to Wizards to decide). I am, as always, their servant in this regard.
On another note: If you have enjoyed the other stories in this excellent anthology, please consider writing a review and putting it up on Amazon. That's the best way to get publicity out about WotC books, it seems.
Cheers |
| TheGato |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:34:30
quote:
No other stories out there about Twilight, I'm afraid.
Now thats a shame!
Im about to finish this story tonight when I get home from work. I started it last night, and unfortuantly pesky work got in the way of reading... Its a great story though, totally sucked me in!
BUT, Im really enjoying her character a lot! She's very interesting, and fun to read about.
Id LOVE to read more of her! |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 13:35:23
I eagerly await word of any continuation of Cythara's story. I also wish you luck in that your stats hold out aginst WotC on Cythara. We all know that battle is like having the rug pulled out from under you. Keep writing. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 02:41:54
Oh, I didn't read it as criticism -- it was a very valid opinion. I was merely expressing my own opinion in response. I hope it didn't come off as anything else.
I'm glad you enjoyed the story.
No other stories out there about Twilight, I'm afraid.
If you're thinking about using Cythara, this is what I've got, for her stats round about 1372-4ish:
Wizard 11 / Thrall of Graz'zt 3
In the story, she was yet a Wizard 11 (her most powerful spells being disintegrate and chain lightning), albeit with a 22 INT (so as to cast two 6th level spells), thanks to a headband of intellect, you know.
Now, of course, if it ever occurs that Wizards releases different stats, well. . .
Cheers |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:34:53
Master of writing de Bie, I must apologize for my harsh words. I only thought it unusual that I was reading so much about demons. I actually finished the story you wrote today. Although after starting it I was like here we go again. But my judging of the story was too early. You ended it very well and I thought to myself, "How rude of me to judge a story before I finish it." Yldar and Twilight we great characters and Cythara got what was coming to her. She even has tempted me into using her as a manipulative bad guy.... I mean girl in the future. Sorry for my criticism once again. Oh, Twilight, does she have anymore stories about her anywhere? She was really cool. As to fantasy writing being dark I agree with your analysis of the fantasy writing market. I only ask that there be one elven village that happiness reigns on high. Keep up the great writing Sir.  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 15:27:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Umm, does it seem like 'Realms of Elves' is full of demon oriented stories? I'm cool with that but it is becoming a little tiresome in my opinion that there is always a demon behind every other plot.[/quiote]
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I also don't see RotE as "full of demon-oriented stories." As far as I see (with minor spoilers), we have one demon main villain, one demon cult (which isn't the main villain), and one devil who makes a notedly brief appearance (more like a wandering monster than an organizing BBEG). So two out of six with demons, only one of which has the demon being in direct opposition with the "hero."
[quote]Plus a lot of the stories are coming off very dark. Is there any happiness in the elven realms other than the one segment in Return of the Archwizards when Galearon goes to that secret elven village in the High Forest?
Speaking for myself (and only for myself), I like reading dark fiction and tend to write it. In a sense, that may be indicative of market shifts (the really popular fantasy out there seems to be getting darker as time progresses), or it may not (perhaps fantasy has always been that way). I know of no particular intention to make the anthology very dark.
In my own story ('ware the spoilers), the characters are trying to be happy, but each tries to do it by being something she or he isn't. Yldar by doing what is expected of him, Cythara by sublimating her own drive to succor her brother, Twilight by turning her back on her heritage. They can't just be blithely pleased by the world and its wonders -- not considering where they are in life. In the end, Cythara and Twilight go away quite happy (at least content), having taken one step closer toward finding who they are, and we're left with Yldar, who is still unable to accept his situation and identity in a world that can't tolerate his old-fashioned elf sensibilities.
In a sense, the story is very much about happiness, and about what it takes to be happy in a changing world, such as Faerun.
Such as our own.
Cheers
|
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 00:20:34
Umm, does it seem like 'Realms of Elves' is full of demon oriented stories? I'm cool with that but it is becoming a little tiresome in my opinion that there is always a demon behind every other plot. Plus a lot of the stories are coming off very dark. Is there any happiness in the elven realms other than the one segment in Return of the Archwizards when Galearon goes to that secret elven village in the High Forest? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2006 : 01:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It said in there that living Manshoon clones were compelled to kill each other. It also said that they didn't feel this compulsion if they were no longer a living Manshoon clone.
That's what I'm talking about.
Add to that, that I've established that few of the remaining clones are actually aware that the others exist. At this point in my campaign... only two are aware that there is another being claiming to be Manshoon -- one in Thay, and the other is presently moving through the circles of Baldur's Gate criminal underworld.
Another, as I've described previously in Steven's scroll, is somewhere in Realmspace, and the other is still on Krynn.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2006 : 19:40:04
My way of looking at it comes from Cloak & Dagger. It said in there that living Manshoon clones were compelled to kill each other. It also said that they didn't feel this compulsion if they were no longer a living Manshoon clone. So, I've dreamed up one that's no longer a living Manshoon clone -- he's magically changed his race.
I also think that one living on the bottom of the Sea of Swords or the Sea of Fallen Stars would easily be able to avoid other Manshoons, and thus not feel compelled to try to kill the other ones. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2006 : 18:48:30
I never really put much stock in the FRCS's claim that ONLY three still remained. Between that, the details about the *fates* of the other clones in C&D, and Ed's comments -- I've fashioned at least five extra Manshoon clones active in places around the Realms.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 May 2006 : 17:31:31
Remember people, Ed has said there are more then just three still around. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2006 : 17:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by elven_songstress
There are far to Many manshoons, someone needs to make a thread for RP where you've encountered a clone and the such...^_^ *loL*
Me, I loved the concept of the Manshoon Wars, and I was disappointed that the FRCS said they were over and that only three Manshoons were still around... I've chosen to creatively interpret that, and I've got plans for at least one surviving Manshoon clone beyond the official three. |
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