| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 14:25:22
Having just read the latest RA Salvatore interview, he notes that we'll be getting a novel 'next' re Bruenor and his quest to find the lost city of Gauntlgrym.
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun". I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
-- George Krashos
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 12:07:06
Thanks for getting that info for us, Beast. Same to you THO! |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 01 Mar 2010 : 21:54:22
Well, he could have always dropped me an e-mail. I would have sorted the lore out for him in a trice. And the NDA I signed for WotC more than 10 years ago still stands ...
-- George Krashos
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 27 Feb 2010 : 06:09:49
Yeah, I lost faith in the WotC editorial team around the announcement of 4th Edition. It should have probably been earlier, but that is the same time that I became active here at the 'Keep. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 08:48:20
Got an e-mail back from Bob, acknowledging the issue. Without speaking to the matter of the pending novel, he did say that he has to depend on the editors and design team for double-checking all of these sorts of lore points. And apparently his notion of Gauntlgrym as the bid daddy city of the Delzoun passed muster with those folks, back in the early 2000s, before the Illusk human stuff became more prominent. He wrote:
quote:
I'm not a Realms-loresman any longer. I used to be, once upon a time, but let's just say that I saw so many "truths" I knew about the world changed for game reasons, new idea reasons, convenience reasons or whatever reasons (including things about characters and places that I had created, like Blingdenstone) that I just threw my hands up, right around 3rd edition, and told the editors - "I'll be mushy on dates and places, you guys let me know if you need more info or more specific info and I'll put it in."
So there you go. You can quote that last paragraph. (E-mail to BEAST, 22-FEB-2010)
Let's just wait and see what comes of this.  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 08:40:29
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
My initial thought (on reading this thread from start to finish) was that this is an EASY retcon- Bruenor was wrong. In a world where one can't google a fact, many old dates would be easily blurred. This would be true of facts from more than one generation past, (meaning you can't go ask grandpa when such-and-such a place fell to the orcs, etc) let alone for anything from millennia ago. So he THOUGHT that Gauntulgrym was founded at a given time, but confused it with some outpost of ancient Delzoun, or just got it plain wrong.
Of course, it would be nice to see a nod in the direction of continuity, at least in the form of 'Gee, I always thought that Gauntulgrym was older than that- goes to show you can't trust tavern tales, I guess'.
Well, I'm not really pressing Bob for an admission that the next book will indeed deal with Gauntlgrym--I'm just referring to the Amazon link as an interesting rumor, for now. 
But in the meantime, I have indeed suggested to Bob some possible retcons to Bruenor's earlier comments about Gauntlgrym's age, including a mistake of memory.
If you recall, Bruenor had forgotten much about Mithral Hall from his own childhood, and was struggling to remember it in Streams of Silver, and even had to rely on magical assistance to boost his memory, before eventually rediscovering it. And this was dealing with a time interval of only about 200 years!
So methinks it's even more understandable that he might've confused some things about an even older kingdom that he had never even visited, himself.
I wonder if there's e'er been a study of the effect of wanderlust on one's long-term memory? 
At any rate, I'm just glad that the ball is now in Bob's court. This is relevant lore that should not simply be exchanged amongst us scribes here at the 'Keep. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 19:51:21
My initial thought (on reading this thread from start to finish) was that this is an EASY retcon- Bruenor was wrong. In a world where one can't google a fact, many old dates would be easily blurred. This would be true of facts from more than one generation past, (meaning you can't go ask grandpa when such-and-such a place fell to the orcs, etc) let alone for anything from millennia ago. So he THOUGHT that Gauntulgrym was founded at a given time, but confused it with some outpost of ancient Delzoun, or just got it plain wrong.
Of course, it would be nice to see a nod in the direction of continuity, at least in the form of 'Gee, I always thought that Gauntulgrym was older than that- goes to show you can't trust tavern tales, I guess'. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 18:55:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, he'd not be done yet.
Gauntulgrym was, of course, an Ed creation, and appeared on Ed's original maps of the Sword Coast North, the Fonstad FR Atlas, and the relevant early "FR" products. Although both the Company of Crazed Venturers and the Knights of Myth Drannor (briefly) visited that complex of underground city/dungeon/labyrinth/linked caverns beneath (as did players in Ed's for-charity D&D tournament at GenCon 20), Ed purposely kept lore about Gauntulgrym - - which exists in his pencil notes and maps as a huge mapped (but not completely mapped; Ed stopped after about 70 8.5"x11" grid graph paper sheets) place - - spotty and sparse, to give everyone else using the Realms maximum freedom.
The "original" Edlore history of Gauntulgrym mentioned linked natural caverns, formerly water-filled (and created) but later left dry as the rock-cleaving waters descended into lower levels, and at least three separate times of inhabitation and tunneling by dwarves, et al (not to mention a DRAGON lairing in a mountaintop cavern above most of the rest of it). At least two of those periods of habitation produced extensive networks of chambers with stone doors both obvious and hidden, many halls and passages, etc.
In other words, allowing for maximum utility and freedom for DMs, writers, and game designers. Check out Ed's unedited prose wherever you can, and you'll see that Ed is a master of "weasel-wording" (e.g. "it is thought that" rather than bald statements of fact) that allow for different interpretations to easily be made without introducing inconsistencies.
In short, Bob should be free to have fun and tell a great tale. 
love to all,
THO
Thanks for the heads up, thats great stuff!!
(70 pages graphed out......WOW!) |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 18:48:20
No, he'd not be done yet.
Gauntulgrym was, of course, an Ed creation, and appeared on Ed's original maps of the Sword Coast North, the Fonstad FR Atlas, and the relevant early "FR" products. Although both the Company of Crazed Venturers and the Knights of Myth Drannor (briefly) visited that complex of underground city/dungeon/labyrinth/linked caverns beneath (as did players in Ed's for-charity D&D tournament at GenCon 20), Ed purposely kept lore about Gauntulgrym - - which exists in his pencil notes and maps as a huge mapped (but not completely mapped; Ed stopped after about 70 8.5"x11" grid graph paper sheets) place - - spotty and sparse, to give everyone else using the Realms maximum freedom.
The "original" Edlore history of Gauntulgrym mentioned linked natural caverns, formerly water-filled (and created) but later left dry as the rock-cleaving waters descended into lower levels, and at least three separate times of inhabitation and tunneling by dwarves, et al (not to mention a DRAGON lairing in a mountaintop cavern above most of the rest of it). At least two of those periods of habitation produced extensive networks of chambers with stone doors both obvious and hidden, many halls and passages, etc.
In other words, allowing for maximum utility and freedom for DMs, writers, and game designers. Check out Ed's unedited prose wherever you can, and you'll see that Ed is a master of "weasel-wording" (e.g. "it is thought that" rather than bald statements of fact) that allow for different interpretations to easily be made without introducing inconsistencies.
In short, Bob should be free to have fun and tell a great tale.
love to all,
THO |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 16:14:56
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Old thread, I know. But Krash has mentioned this particular conflict often, here at the Keep. And with <Amazon> alleging that Salvatore's next book will involve Gauntlgrym, I thought the subject bore reexamination.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun".
I'd just like to point out that Bob wrote his references to Gauntlgrym in the books of "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" back before LEOF was published. I am not familiar with all of the backstory on Illusk and the refugees who founded Gauntlgrym, but that specific timeline in LEOF came out after he put Gauntlgrym into the mind and mouth of Bruenor. So how is Bob at fault for not incorporating a 2005 lorebook's info into novels released in 2002, 2003, and 2004?
Is it possible that the design team for LEOF is the party at fault, here, since they failed to incorporate Bruenor's recollections from "THBT" in the early 2000's into the 2005 lorebook LEOF?
Or, maybe Bob overlooked even older, existing lore from other lorebooks, rather than LEOF. Perhaps those publications are what he should be chastised about?
quote:
I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
Regardless, I'll pass this info on to him by e-mail. He definitely should see it. Wouldn't want him to overlook any of this lore, from any of the sources.
If it is shipping on Oct 5th this year.....the time for research has passed. I'm sure he has it handled. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 07:57:43
Old thread, I know. But Krash has mentioned this particular conflict often, here at the Keep. And with <Amazon> alleging that Salvatore's next book will involve Gauntlgrym, I thought the subject bore reexamination.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of the comments in the Hunters Blades Trilogy re Gauntlgrym don't quite match up with what we've learned of this place in "Lost Empires of Faerun".
I'd just like to point out that Bob wrote his references to Gauntlgrym in the books of "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" back before LEOF was published. I am not familiar with all of the backstory on Illusk and the refugees who founded Gauntlgrym, but that specific timeline in LEOF came out after he put Gauntlgrym into the mind and mouth of Bruenor. So how is Bob at fault for not incorporating a 2005 lorebook's info into novels released in 2002, 2003, and 2004?
Is it possible that the design team for LEOF is the party at fault, here, since they failed to incorporate Bruenor's recollections from "THBT" in the early 2000's into the 2005 lorebook LEOF?
Or, maybe Bob overlooked even older, existing lore from other lorebooks, rather than LEOF. Perhaps those publications are what he should be chastised about?
quote:
I hope he has a read of LEoF before he gets into too much of a writing frenzy.
Regardless, I'll pass this info on to him by e-mail. He definitely should see it. Wouldn't want him to overlook any of this lore, from any of the sources. |
| Lameth |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
People of Nesme got what was coming to them if you ask me. :)
You are damn right.
Stupid humans. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 07:31:22
People of Nesme got what was coming to them if you ask me. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:42:58
Regis originally sent a troop of dwarves with Firth to save the refugees. The dwarves found more refugees. General Dagna tells Firth and co. to come with them back down the dwarven tunnels to wait out the winter, and come spring they would come back and retake Nesme. Firth attacks immediately, and Dagna and his troops die defending the refugees, and another group of dwarves show up and finally tell them to retreat. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:18:12
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
And Bruenor is quite pissed at Nesme because those dwarves died because the human leader Galen Firth was a stubborn asshole who refused to listen to good advice.
What advice did he not listen to?
And there is such a thing as good dwarven advice? |
| khorne |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:14:38
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees.
And Bruenor is quite pissed at Nesme because those dwarves died because the human leader Galen Firth was a stubborn asshole who refused to listen to good advice. If Obould and his gang weren`t around, Nesme would probably be jumped by Mithral Hall, Citadel Felbarr AND citadel Adbar.(The Nesmians are really good at maintaining good relationships with the dwarves)
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| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 19:10:28
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
The effects of WOTSQ on the Underdark. Destroyed cities, demon armies, the new Lolth. None of it was really covered was it?
If I recall correctly, the series was only two books old when the gaming tome came out. And the gaming product had the destruction of Ched Nasad listed within it. Thus, what did they miss from the novels that had been published? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
What would you label as WOTSQ underdark?
The effects of WOTSQ on the Underdark. Destroyed cities, demon armies, the new Lolth. None of it was really covered was it? |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 17:55:17
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
How much of it actually dealt with WOTSQ underdark?
What would you label as WOTSQ underdark? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:58:55
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Wasn't there a whole tome devoted to the Underdark?
How much of it actually dealt with WOTSQ underdark?
quote:
When did they first look foolish?
Silver Marches. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:56:18
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Why do you think they're pretty much avoided mentioning the underdark since WOTQ started? :)
Wasn't there a whole tome devoted to the Underdark?
quote:
Probably so they don't look foolish again.
When did they first look foolish? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 16:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
How far south does it stretch? Just to the end of the mountains or do the folks in Nesme have to start learning an orc national anthem?
That should have been except the west gate that leads to the River.
quote:
quote:
He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
That's the way I recall hearing the tale. He was at some convention and a question was posed to him about the gaming product.
Yeap.
quote:
quote:
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination.
Well, let's see how they handle the changes from the WOTSQ series come gaming products that focuses on the dark elven society and deities. The author of the last novel in the series has put forth what he thinks took place per the end of the novel. Thus, I'm curious to see if a gaming product matches up to his information.
Why do you think they're pretty much avoided mentioning the underdark since WOTQ started? :)
Probably so they don't look foolish again.
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 15:01:02
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees.
Ah, thank you for that information. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 14:11:00
Nesme was trashed by the Trolls allied to the orcs of Obould's confederacy. Silverymoon pledged to help the survivors rebuild after the winter. A lot of Mithril Hall dwarves died defending the refugees. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 07:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
How far south does it stretch? Just to the end of the mountains or do the folks in Nesme have to start learning an orc national anthem?
quote:
He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
That's the way I recall hearing the tale. He was at some convention and a question was posed to him about the gaming product.
quote:
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination.
Well, let's see how they handle the changes from the WOTSQ series come gaming products that focuses on the dark elven society and deities. The author of the last novel in the series has put forth what he thinks took place per the end of the novel. Thus, I'm curious to see if a gaming product matches up to his information. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 06:58:38
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
What are the geographical boundaries to this new orc nation?
If I'm not mistaken, but it's the entire mountain side surrounding Mithral Hall the west gate that leads out to the River Surbin.
-----------------------------------------------
As far as Hunter's Blades vs Realms Lore go, I really seen no evidence or defense that leads me to believe him writing in 1370 about events that were supposed be taking place in current day (as per Silver Marches) were exactly his fault. He didn't know about Silver Marches until AFTER it was on the shelf and as I recall, was shocked by it.
I think it was just the other way around. Wizards probably said, great he's writing about a big orc build up in the North, we know this much information, so let's leave it vague in Silver Marches and let his novels fill in the blanks of the supplement.
But that's just me and the eternal hatred I carry for the fact that no one actually working for Wizards is held accountable for supplement/novel contiunity nor supplement/novel coordination. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 06:27:52
I'll get back to you when I can refresh my memory . . . tis late and I've worked lo this entire weekend . . . my weekend starts tomorrow, lol |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 05:16:35
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Alustriel has told Bruenor that she will help guard his caravans since they pass through the contested area, but she will not commit troops to dislodge his keep, since it would cost a lot more lives than it was worth. The implication is that she might be willing to deal with Obould if he proves to be a permanent force.
What are the geographical boundaries to this new orc nation? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 04:16:55
Yes, Obould has Dark Arrow Keep and has a large number of tribes pledged to him as the Kingdom of Dark Arrows, though due to events at the end of the book has to go around to the various tribes now and prove that he is still alive.
Alustriel has told Bruenor that she will help guard his caravans since they pass through the contested area, but she will not commit troops to dislodge his keep, since it would cost a lot more lives than it was worth. The implication is that she might be willing to deal with Obould if he proves to be a permanent force. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 03:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Maybe I am being too harsh . . . and I really did use to love his books. The last trilogy really was a non starter with me, at least the last two books. I actually had very high hopes after The Thousand Orcs.
Mr. Salvatore tends to produce passionate responses be they positive or negative. Thus, I don't believe you are being too harsh.
As for the last trilogy, I'm the exact opposite of your experience with the first novel. I tried to read the first novel to see if I could enjoy the characters after a break of several years from Drizzt and company. My attempt was unsuccessful. Thus, I didn't finish the trilogy as there was no enjoyment by this FR fan when reading about these characters.
However, I did keep an eye/ear open to see how the trilogy concluded. New orc nation now? Is that correct?
I was going to see about reading the new Artemis book coming out later this year. However, the conclusion to the WOTSQ series and Mr. Salvatore providing some details about the novel in a new interview have convinced me that when it comes to this author's FR offerings, I'm just going to have to pass on them. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 03:17:24
Normally I defer to the rule of Waukeen in matters of publishing . . . i.e. WOTC is a business, and their job is to make money, which is neither a good nor evil pursuit, but rather a function of their existance as a business entity . . . however . . .
RAS is the BIG GUN . . . he sells bigger than anyone. I am afraid that all of our wonderful lore on the Delzoun will be thrown out the window and rewritten if RAS decides to write his epic and rework everything we already know . . . becuase he is the BIG GUN.
What really bothers me is that RAS used to be counted on to be up on all the rules in the Realms and all the new AD&D rules, and managed to tie them all together well. In recent years, however, he seems to want to make it all conform to him and his whims.
Maybe I am being too harsh . . . and I really did use to love his books. The last trilogy really was a non starter with me, at least the last two books. I actually had very high hopes after The Thousand Orcs. |
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