| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 13:52:06
I've just read the Avatar's Trilogy and the Cormyr Saga, and i really love both, the story, the characters (except Kelemvore  ), but there's soemthing that disturbed me, is really necessary the gore descriptions of how Nalavara slays Purple dragons, or how Kelemvore turned into a panther?, i don't want to seem "tiquis miquis" but I think there are other resources to create an horror feeling in the reader without being so "graphical".
Of course is my opinion. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 03:20:36
I don't think that FR has gotten too "gory" at all.It's necessary in a world like FR.Violence has shaped it from it's beginning.And I agree that I wouldn't want an author just coming out,and saying"He cut him with his sword,and down he went".Next chapter....I want to know the details.I want to know if he lost an arm,or was decapitated.I want that picture painted.I want to feel the anguish when I read of someone being run through.
As far as sex goes.Well you can never,ever have enough of it.I mean it doesn't have to be graphic in fantasy novels to get the point across.Hopefully everyone can use their imagination. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 17:40:15
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
DDH First of all, I'm fed up with sex and violence in TV, that's why I don't watch it; but forgetting this, I think that a scene can be "suggested" I remember how Margaret Weiss said in a dragonlance special edition that in sex scenes she prefered what she called, a "boots scene". It was a scene in the Huma´s Tomb where Tanis was with Kitiara. In that scenes we had a sexy game between the half-elf and the woman, but when they were close to sex, the scene was cut off to show, a chat between Raistlin and Caramon if I recall correctly, and the next one was Tanis putting on his boots. that's what i mean, why don't only suggest the scenes? Something like "Nalavara was slaying the soldiers" and not "The soldiers were mutilated by her claws..." There's a motto that says "know to shut up in time".
Theloninus, the sex issue I have no argument with you. I agree sex should not be explicit in fantasy novels. I myself thought the authors in the WotSQ series did a good job, such as the encounters between Phauraun and Aliiza. The authors tells us that they are indeed having intercourse, but does not actually go into details about it and basically just let the reader's imagination take its course.
Back to violence, it's because "Nalavara was slaying the soldiers" is so simple. If every battle scene was just like "He cut him with the sword", or "She died from the fireball", who's going to read this stuff? Sometimes there must be details which draws the attention of the reader. Thelonius, you didn't like the description, but it drew your attention did it not? If it was just "Nalavara came in with her claws and spells, and took down the Purple Dragons.", would you have even made a point of it?
Winterfox, I agree with your last paragraph. As I had mentioned in a previous post, sometimes these graphical descriptions are needed to put the mood for a character or the setting of the story. For example, how do you show Kelemvor had a bloody and violent past when you don't show the gore and violence that occurrs in his life? If in the Avatar Series Kelemvor's descriptions were not as gory and violent, no reader would think of his curse as soemthing important. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 14:03:17
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
I agree that if the death or the blood is important to make the story advance, or gain realism, but, in battles, for example, I don't need the writer to remember me people is dying, and problably with cruelty, I suppouse, it's happening.
But I don't understand. So are you, or are you not, okay with graphic descriptions -- provided that it's called for, or necessary to a given moment in the story? An example from my writing to illustrate what I'm trying to convey:
quote:
Charging ahead at nonplussed, agape Sith, she proceeded to dispatch them while straining not to unconsciously draw on the Force to augment herself. Canderous was right behind her, and the scuffle was swiftly finished.
This is very vaguely written, because it's not important -- it's mostly just "another" skirmish. On the other hand:
quote:
A vision of Kreed being skinned, slowly, and then have his bones broken one by one flashed in her mind: the skin peeling from his muscles to expose the tendons beneath, the raw redness, the crunching and cracking sounds. Glistening white bone fragments jutting out, the sickly scent of bodily fluids, her fingertips brushing tender flesh and her fingernails digging in. Revan suppressed the urge to recoil – from herself, laughable as that was – and to clamp her mouth shut to keep down the rising nausea. Anger – at herself, at Kreed – trailed in its wake.
This goes into greater details, because it's important: the mental image that strikes the character, and her reaction to it. It's needed to show that she has psychological issues. Without the details, having her feel nauseated would seem, well, a little silly and melodramatic. (Of course, I still consider this tame. Hey, it's under a PG-13 rating.) |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 10:11:07
I agree that if the death or the blood is important to make the story advance, or gain realism, but, in battles, for example, I don't need the writer to remember me people is dying, and problably with cruelty, I suppouse, it's happening. |
| Josh Davids |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 09:02:32
As I said in the Greenwood thread about sex for me it doesn’t really matter as long as it fits in the story and adds to it I am fine.
As a writer I don’t gloss over it if I write about it, sex or violence. Then again I pay attention to the small details if a person has their throat slit it is going to spray in the direction the person cut is facing. If their throat is slit they will gargle on the blood, if their throat is slit they will fall down and make a loud noise. It adds to the story, a guard comes along might just likely slip in the blood even if there is no body and if I didn’t write blood spurting over the marble floor what would the reader take away from this I would be hammered for inconsistencies. The guard will think where did the blood come from uh oh someone is dead alert the other guards someone has come to kill so and so. The thud from the falling body might alert the guards as well, if they choke and gasp on the blood might make some noise the assassin didn’t want made and again alert the guards.
With that said though I am not going to describe every single blood soaked minute of a battle, I describe or write out what I as the writer feels appropriate and adds to the story or character.
I also pay attention to these details if not describing a sex scene or a blood bath, when a character walks into a cheap run down inn they will smell burned food, cheap ale mixed with vomit that stains the floor or in clumps from the saw dust spread about the floor, they might hear a creak in the chair as they sit down. Sometimes it just adds to the story and it also makes people keenly aware of the type of character they are reading about.
A hero goes through a horrendous battle, chaos on the field, blood soaked lands his armor and sword caked in blood and gore. In his mind he might have trouble dealing with it, would it make sense if I did not describe the blood coating everything, the sticky clinging feel of the blood or the sweet coppery taste of it or the screams of agony that haunt his every waking minute, would it make sense if the character woke up in cold sweat, saw the mutilated faces of his friends in a mirror as he goes to shave if I simple just wrote “Kendrel faced great odds and killed them all and lost many friends.”
To me as a writer it is a slight insult to say “you just spent half a book building up to this fight between these two characters and now you must reduce it to he stabbied the bad guy and the bad guy died.” And yes I know I misspelled that word did it on purpose.
Plus I look at it this way if you gloss over what a character, hero or villain does how can anyone even begin to understand the suffering and torment they went through or how evil they really are. What their thoughts are and how they react to certain things.
I see this happening each day, novels gloss over what an assassin does and people go “oh man that guy is so cool I want to be just like him.”
Huh…you want to be a guy who slices other people’s throats for money? Wha….
I want my villains reviled, hated and feared not fawned over like a school girl/boy crush people think the character is so cool. I want dread bubbling in peoples hearts as the hero faces the villain in a battle of skill and wits, I want the lump of fear rising in their throat and it just doesn’t happen, at least in my view if I gloss over every single bloody, creepy and vile act a villain does. Yes there are limits but finding those limits in ones own writing is part of the skill each individual author must struggle to find and accept. Some don’t like writing about it, others do, others just find it is a part of the background of the story.
How can a hero agonize over killing if I simple put “he stabbed the orc, the orc died.”
Yes there is a lot of violence in the realms, there are also creatures who are pure evil in the realms, creatures who are the walking dead, creatures made from blood. Swords and axes are used to hack people apart, daggers are used to stab them and slash open their necks, hammers crush chest and skulls. Combat with these types of weapons is not at all pretty, it is gruesome and it is horrific and personally it is not a way I want to go hacked to death by an axe or sword. To gloss over ever single little detail of violence takes away from the stories, the characters and the struggles they go through so in effect cheapens the story and the lives of the characters that come to be in the realms.
But that is just my take on it from my own experiences and writing. we disagree with it so be it I am not trying to convince anyone I am right or wrong that is my take and my view on it. In my writings I will only go as far as I feel appropriate and no further and I won’t be toning it down just to please half the audience.
I also just scanned up and read some of the posts. Anubis I don’t write bloody scenes to amp it up as you put it and I don’t feel people are becoming jaded about the violence in books. The reason why I write out the blood and gore is above it adds to the scene, the characters and the overall feel of the story that is being told and I try to keep a balance when I do write it up. I don’t write to shock the reader but to give them the atmosphere the story is taking place in. for me if you spend the entire book suggesting something happened you never tell the story of something actually happening, but again that is just my take on it, more then likely I am wrong.
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| Thelonius |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 08:06:39
DDH First of all, I'm fed up with sex and violence in TV, that's why I don't watch it; but forgetting this, I think that a scene can be "suggested" I remember how Margaret Weiss said in a dragonlance special edition that in sex scenes she prefered what she called, a "boots scene". It was a scene in the Huma´s Tomb where Tanis was with Kitiara. In that scenes we had a sexy game between the half-elf and the woman, but when they were close to sex, the scene was cut off to show, a chat between Raistlin and Caramon if I recall correctly, and the next one was Tanis putting on his boots. that's what i mean, why don't only suggest the scenes? Something like "Nalavara was slaying the soldiers" and not "The soldiers were mutilated by her claws..." There's a motto that says "know to shut up in time". |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 05:49:50
The most graphic scene in an FR book has to go to Phil Athans and the latest WOSQ Novel
if you haven read book 5 then do not read below this line
The scene where Gromph sticks a serated Spoon into his own eye socket made me rather squimish. The fact that I can actually visualise what the Serated spoon looked like probably didnt help (Ive actually seen serated spoons used for scooping the flesh out of Fruit that resemble the ones used in WOSQ 5)
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| Winterfox |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 05:10:29
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Yes, but, aren't we fed up of violence and sex in the real world, then why put it into the Realms? Maybe i'm wrong, but i like to read to switch of the reality and "travel" to the realms. I don't like the idea of mutilated corpses in a field or a young princess death cause a death mad king...., i mean, the realms are the cradle of evil and despair, as all worlds, but, must it be so crude?
Can't the evilness or madness be reflected without impressing the reader, sincerely in each of these scenes I felt how the magic of the realms disappeared for a while, until it finished. I don't want to seem "innocent", but it's my point of view.
The old adage applies: show, not tell. Telling amounts to very little, and leaves me feeling nothing at all. Actually, graphic violence/sex can also leave me feeling nothing at all, too, but that's another thing altogether. (Some people's idea of graphic sex induces hysterical laughter in me, for example, due to defiance of anatomical/medical facts. Some graphic violence is obviously there just for the purpose of "shocking" the reader, and simply makes me snort derisively.) Of course, a good author can do this subtly (I find psychological trauma and skewed mentality far more chilling than physical harm): you don't need to slaughter a hundred children and bathe in the blood of a thousand virgins to be evil. But there are occasions where explicit descriptions of "bad stuff" are appropriate. So.
I actually consider FR pretty tame compared to some fantasy settings, you know; in some places, it's positively... fairytale-ish. I'd hate to see it turn into a LALA-land. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 16:12:13
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Yes, but, aren't we fed up of violence and sex in the real world, then why put it into the Realms? Maybe i'm wrong, but i like to read to switch of the reality and "travel" to the realms. I don't like the idea of mutilated corpses in a field or a young princess death cause a death mad king...., i mean, the realms are the cradle of evil and despair, as all worlds, but, must it be so crude?
Can't the evilness or madness be reflected without impressing the reader, sincerely in each of these scenes I felt how the magic of the realms disappeared for a while, until it finished. I don't want to seem "innocent", but it's my point of view.
Thelonius, which is why there's so many different aspects of fantasy and also so many situations in DnD. In DnD, you can have PG stuff if that's what you prefer and also like R-rated stuff like the Book of Vile Darkness. There's an example. BoVD contains so much disturbing stuff that the cover saids it's meant for only adults.
Also, fed up with the sex and violence? Lol. Who is? Hollywood movies and even video games are all about violence and sex. Then look at Forgotten Realms. The whole setting is constantly filled with violence and struggles; whether it's between the Harpers and the Zhentarim to Evereska and the Phaerrim. It's whole history is based on the ups and downs of thousands of kingdoms, which resulted from wars. Then to the issue of sex. I myself agree with others about not having explicit sex content since that's not what the Realms is about. If I wanted to read about sex, I would pick up a romance novel or soemthing. However, sex is part of everyone's lives, whether it is fantasy or not. Sex is part of love and romance, and so if you have two characters in love with each other, would it surprise you if they have sex? |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 15:24:43
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Yes, but, aren't we fed up of violence and sex in the real world,
Current movie/tv/book trends would point to the answer being no. Remeber also that each generation sparks a new interest in any given subject.
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Maybe i'm wrong, but i like to read to switch of the reality and "travel" to the realms. I don't like the idea of mutilated corpses in a field or a young princess death cause a death mad king...., i mean, the realms are the cradle of evil and despair, as all worlds, but, must it be so crude?
Many people do things to "escape reality". The reality which you choose to escape to depends on the person. Take for example video games. The whole idea there is also a brief escape, yet you can not deny the particularly violent tone that some games portray (not all of them, mind you!).
The scences which you describe are indeed horrific, but they are part of that other world. I agree they do not have to be crude, but some people would not have them sugar coated either.
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Can't the evilness or madness be reflected without impressing the reader, sincerely in each of these scenes I felt how the magic of the realms disappeared for a while, until it finished. I don't want to seem "innocent", but it's my point of view.
And that is why you will see it in some books and not others. A lot of people (I wonder how many....) read fantasy books and ALL of them have slightly different tastes (probably a lot more that slightly) and authors try to write for all of them. They might change their style in the future, but it's just how things stand right now. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 14:51:27
Yes, but, aren't we fed up of violence and sex in the real world, then why put it into the Realms? Maybe i'm wrong, but i like to read to switch of the reality and "travel" to the realms. I don't like the idea of mutilated corpses in a field or a young princess death cause a death mad king...., i mean, the realms are the cradle of evil and despair, as all worlds, but, must it be so crude?
Can't the evilness or madness be reflected without impressing the reader, sincerely in each of these scenes I felt how the magic of the realms disappeared for a while, until it finished. I don't want to seem "innocent", but it's my point of view. |
| Valdar Oakensong |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 22:11:33
I think that violence and sex are very important in a fantasy setting like the Realms. If you go back in our history to a time most comparable to the FR world you will see that rape and pillage was the norm. Of course there is no need to go over the top. As to the novels changing over the years I think that the readers age is going up so WOTC are catering to an older reader. |
| James P. Davis |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 20:01:37
Actually there was one scene in Bloodwalk that I had originally planned to have happen "off-camera", if you will, because I thought it might be too graphic, but I was asked to focus on it instead. Once I looked at it in terms of the whole book and the character in question, it sets a mood and does quite alot in the way of giving an insight into the character's frame of mind throughout the story.
Usually, for the most part, I don't really think about excessive violence or sex while I'm writing. I tend to write what the story wants or needs. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 14:52:19
I've written graphic gore (and sex), and non-graphic, also. I do whatever seems like it'll create the effect I'm after in the particular scene.
Despite my previous post that some people see a moral dimension to how violence is depicted, I'll own up and say that isn't something I myself worry about very often. Once in a while, maybe.
I have noticed that in recent years, I tend to be reaonably explicit with the fight scenes, but when dealing with torture, I tend to make it clear what's going to happen, but then end the scene in preference to actually showing it. I don't know if that's because I've gotten squeamish, or because, in my stories, it seems to be more economical and just as dramatically effective.
With one exception, I've never had an editor ask me to be more graphic, or less. The exception was a scene involving the sadistic killing of an animal in a Young Adult horror novel. The editor felt that needed to be toned down.
Since I personally almost never get asked for more nasty or less nasty, I don't have a sense that the editors are pushing the tone of fantasy in one direction or the other. Maybe other writers have run into this, however, and will have something interesting to say on this particular point. |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 14:39:13
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Some people find graphic, realistic depictions of violence to be nasty and offensive. Other people feel that stories which gloss over the true horror of maiming and killing and implicitly suggest that violence is just exhilarating fun, like a rollercoaster ride, take a stance that's essentially immoral. I think most writers will agree, it's tricky to produce something that'll satisfy the members of both groups.
More than agreed. Still, has walking that path changed in the last few years? Would you say you walk the in the middle of the path of has it shifted towards either pole? I mean, would an editor be more likely to complain that a book is "just too bloody" or that it "lacks Oomph!".
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I found Pharaun's encounter in the basement of the Jewel Box a fine example of how mature subject matter could be handled without being explicit.
Very good example :) |
| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 14:23:12
My feelings towards gore in books are much like my feelings towards movies. It really depends on how the subject is treated. Gore can be incredibly explicit without necessarily being disturbing. Indeed, gratuitous gore can be so over the top that it becomes downright funny. Witness any number of action movies for examples of this kind of treatment.
On the other hand, some scenes are disturbing as hell without being particularly graphic. Take some of the most effective scenes in the movie "Seven," for example. We don't actually see a great deal, but the mere implication of what has transpired is enough to send shudders down your spine.
Same thing with sex. Explicit does not necessarily mean sexy, any more than gory means disturbing. For me, the point is achieving the emotion. And if you can do that without resorting to detailed description, so much the better. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 14:00:21
I treat explicit gore in novels like explicit sex: if it doesn't need to be there, it shouldn't be there. (Well, I think that applies to everything; if, say, esoteric architectural details add nothing to the story/characterization and are not relevant to the point-of-view character's thought process, they shouldn't be included. Textbook info-dumps are skippable, in any case, unless you're doing research.)
If it's required to set up the scene and give an atmosphere, great.
If it's just there to shock the readers? Uhm, how about no.
I have no opinion on the moral issues, so... |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 13:51:34
I've got the problem that, i'm almost finished a book, but reading it's contents i realize it need more.... "sauce", cause it's too innocent to be a book of this topic, but i've got my doubts on writing "cruel" scenes, and, i really don't know how to make it |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 06:07:11
I agree, Sirius. The usage of a bit of wit and humour in Pharaun's character did not make his actions seem too dark and violent. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 05:52:57
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Some people find graphic, realistic depictions of violence to be nasty and offensive. Other people feel that stories which gloss over the true horror of maiming and killing and implicitly suggest that violence is just exhilarating fun, like a rollercoaster ride, take a stance that's essentially immoral. I think most writers will agree, it's tricky to produce something that'll satisfy the members of both groups.
I found Pharaun's encounter in the basement of the Jewel Box a fine example of how mature subject matter could be handled without being explicit. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 03:47:06
Lol. I know, you would never read about elf maidens dancing and laughing in Skullport, unless they were ordered to in their brothels.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 03:14:00
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Then there's also the stuff in Skullport, and you cannot possibly even try to paint a pretty picture for that place as that would not be fit.
That's the truth! Something cute and fluffy would not have a long lifespan down there -- unless it was a nastybad in disguise.  |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 00:45:04
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
I've just read the Avatar's Trilogy and the Cormyr Saga, and i really love both, the story, the characters (except Kelemvore ), but there's soemthing that disturbed me, is really necessary the gore descriptions of how Nalavara slays Purple dragons, or how Kelemvore turned into a panther?, i don't want to seem "tiquis miquis" but I think there are other resources to create an horror feeling in the reader without being so "graphical".
Of course is my opinion.
Thelonius, I myself think it depends on the story and the characters in the books. For example, Kelemvore's past is full of very sad and violent stuff, so wouldn't it be fitting if the transformation in his curse be equally the same? Remember, this is the same man who watched helplessly as his best friend and uncle were killed.
There's other FR books which are graphical or "dark" too. One is the Erevis Cale trilogy where there are many situations involving torture, beatings, etc. But it FITS because the books revolves around Erevis, a follower of the Shadowlord who also had a pretty dark past. Then there's also the stuff in Skullport, and you cannot possibly even try to paint a pretty picture for that place as that would not be fit. |
| Kameron M. Franklin |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 19:07:17
I chose to use a couple scenes of graphic torture in Maiden because I felt it emphasized how far the protagonist was willing to go (or not) in the service of her deity. Generally, though, I avoid gratuitous explicit descriptions of violence. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 18:11:44
Some people find graphic, realistic depictions of violence to be nasty and offensive. Other people feel that stories which gloss over the true horror of maiming and killing and implicitly suggest that violence is just exhilarating fun, like a rollercoaster ride, take a stance that's essentially immoral. I think most writers will agree, it's tricky to produce something that'll satisfy the members of both groups. |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 17:32:17
I agree with you, Sirius (on this topic as well as the one related to sex). Yet I must confess to noticing an increasing trend in the depiction of violent acts in novels. Perhaps readers are becoming inured to it and authors feel they must "amp up the volume" to achieve the same tone in their stories? I feel that people are more jaded these days. (I would be curious to hear from the writers on this, as they have a better feel for what people want to read)
I personally do not mind the description, as long as they are not gratuitous. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 17:24:47
quote:
Originally posted by Bergan
My first thought on readsing the thread title was "Al Gore in the Realms."
 Glad to see I wasn't the only one to initially think that.
Interesting that after we have a discussion on sexual situations in Realms novels, we now turn to this subject. I'll be curious to hear some replies.
As for myself, I'll almost repeat myself here. What does the scene add to the story? Is it violence just for shock effect? Or does it add something to the story? |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 15:38:10
quote:
Originally posted by Bergan
My first thought on readsing the thread title was "Al Gore in the Realms."
Maybe he claims to have invented the Weave?
It was my first idea, but politics aren't from FR  |
| Bergan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 15:19:23
My first thought on readsing the thread title was "Al Gore in the Realms."
Maybe he claims to have invented the Weave? |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 14:02:13
My one gripe about about most RP game descriptions and and novels is the glossing over of violence. I am a fan of realistic gore and blood in both movies and games, shown in explicit detail.
Why? Killing is not pleasant. Nor is hurting others. You want the end result of them being dead, you get to see the "making of the sausauge" so to speak. I take this stance double with anything involving war, and describe it's atrocities and horror as graphically as possible. There is nothing good about war... sometimes the end result maybe, but never the actual war.
Combat and war should be kept as uncomfortable, gruesome, and bloody as it really is or would be, lest people get too comfortable with the idea of it and romanticize it. |
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