| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 19:55:13
In an earlier thread.I had made the comment that I would like to see character stats here on Candlekeep.Richard Lee Byers responded that while he,"Writes for the love of fantasy,he has to get paid".Total,100% agreement with him on that.My question is this.Would there ever be a time when characters have their stats included in that said novel??Just charge a little extra on the book.That way you get paid regardless.Would any author be willing to do that???Would it be a hassle?Too much time to do?Would fans like to see that???Or should a novel just tell the story?I wouldn't mind seeing stats included in with the novel.Anyone else???? |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Israfel666 |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 18:04:16
Character stats are a tool for the DM to constrain the players' imagination, and set limits to what their characters can do in his game - the players need stats, lest their PCs grow too vague in potential. The DM does not need to constrain his own imagination, though... a DM can break as many rules as he wishes, hence his NPCs may even not have full game stats (several of mine don't).
In this regard, a novelist is much like a Dungeon Master. The storyline is his and his alone, he does not need to answer to anyone about what happens in his books or to what his character(s) do. It is a right that grants him the most artistic freedom. Hence, no game stats, they would only hamper his job.
The exception is, you can safely create 'official' game stats for a character once he's not going to appear in stories any longer. At that point, you know every single thing that character did, and you can create stats that reflect this and do not interfere with any plot. But as a character is never fully 'done with' (even a dead character can become the protagonist of an earlier-age novel) that is impossible to do. Stats will either become a problematic restraint ('Drizzt can't create globes of blackness! In 3.5 darkness creates only shadow!') or will need constant revising, making the existance of an 'official' version pointless.
That's why I don't think game stats in novels are a good idea (there is also Mr. Lee Byers' argument, which I fully agree on). |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 16:55:35
And I'm another one who came in through novels and not games. Those who were here a year ago will remember my bumbling questions in regards to all this stuff I didn't understand. So I can safely say that stats in novels would put off more people than some may think.
Just pick up a stat block and look at it. Count off the number of places that you need to have a PHB to understand. Or rather, the number of places you don't need one, since that would be a much shorter list. Like, for instance, "name." Not much more than that would be readable to a non-player.
Yes, it would be nice to know some things in game terms. At the moment, I'm reading Windrider's Oath by David Weber, and I keep coming across places where I'm sure I could stat things out in d20 terms. I keep wondering if he studied the paladin class before writing it. But is it necessary? Nope.
Yes, it would be nice in some places to confirm a suspicion or two. You might find a part in a novel where the character whips out a weapon faster than anyone else. Does that person have the Quick Draw feat? Maybe. Maybe not. In my Jack Archer story, I tried to keep to the rules since I knew that most of this would be from the actual game. Yet not everything is necessarily part of the rules even there. A reader might assume Jack has Quick Draw from the fact I describe it as a reflexitive action. Guess what? He doesn't.
Not everything needs to boil down to stats. I've never read an FR book yet and thought it necessary to know what skill ranks a character has to appreciate the story. Mr. Greenwood states in one of the Elminster books that Elminster is a good dancer; I never wondered how many ranks he had. In fact, I never even considered it until I saw his stat block and saw some points thrown to Perfom (dance). And while I did wonder exactly what Danilo Thann's class level was, it's really not necessary to know anything other than "bard/wizard." I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who have read Elfshadow, yet wouldn't know what do do with even that, either. |
| Wood Elf Ranger |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 15:20:11
That is exactly the point I was trying to make Zyx! Thank you 
As well you might want to change the characters stats to fit in with your campaign depending on what level the PC's are. Or even based on what time period it is if you really want to be true to the character. I'm sure even Drizzt wasn't always a 19th level character (as he is statted in FRCS sourcebook which I'm not sure I agree with but that was one of the points already made  ) Perhaps your campaign takes place during the time period when he just emerged to the 'land above'. I'm just using him as an example hopefully y'all get my point  |
| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 14:35:15
For the record, I am a FR author who has never in my life played D&D. So I think it's safe to say there are quite a few of us readers who did not come in through the gaming route, and thus have little interest in the stats. Whether or not we constitute the majority is, in my view, beside the point.
Having stats displayed in the novels makes little sense to me. For one thing, they are often available from other WoTC products. For example, stats for the Dragonlance characters are all available in the War of the Lance boxed set (the name of which I might have wrong -- I can't quite remember). I don't know for certain whether such a product exists for FR, but I'll bet if the fans demanded one loudly enough it would duly appear.
And as someone else already pointed out, plenty of people like making up their own stats for existing characters. Part of the fun of such characters is that they mean something to you. What they mean to you, however, is not necessarily what they mean to everybody else. Thus when character stats are provided, they often become a source of heated debate. (I've seen talk on other boards that goes round and round whether Dalamar from Dragonlance should have a higher wisdom rating than Raistlin, for instance.) If you really like an author's character and want to play him/her in a game setting, wouldn't you know as well as anyone what that character's stats ought to be? |
| Narad Bladesinger |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 14:33:00
If characters' stats would be included in a book, for one thing, it would reduce the freedom of the author since he/she would be expected to do everything according to the rules.
Otherwise there would be complaining like:"He can't do that, his stats don't allow it!"
In my opinion, it would just be a gaming session in a book.
(Though I must admit that I've looked up some characters' stats . I'm curious, can't help it!  ) |
| arilyn742 |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 14:12:54
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Some people already look down on rpg-based novels as not "real" books. Including character stats would, in my opinion, invite even more scorn by intensifying the impression that the story amounts to nothing more than a glorified transcript of a gaming session.
For that reason, I wouldn't want the gaming stats in the actual novels. If they're going to run anywhere, I'd much rather have it be in Dragon.
I agree with ye there, O Great Mr. Byers.
And then there are those who look down on game-based novels because they don't have enought to do with the games. Takes out a copy of InQuest Gamer, says "THAT MEANS YOU!!!", spits on it, then quickly rubs it clean, kisses it, and apologises. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 06:07:34
quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
I respect your stance but I hardly think that a little insert in the book would be all that annoying or distracting. I just thought that people buy the Heroes Lorebook and so on so there's a market for it
Why not give (at least some) gamers what they want since they are the core audience. It would be kinda cool since it would be like a snapshot in time showing what the various characters capabilities were at that point, instead of one set of stats for all time periods.
Again just a thought.
I am a gamer, and I do not want these stats in my novels. I prefer to keep novels as entertainment that exists outside of the game, and, while influencing it, aren't actually a game resource.
As I've observed more than once, anyone can come up with stats. Give me a character concept, and I'm a happy camper. |
| Wood Elf Ranger |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 05:55:36
This is most likely due to my over-active imagination, but I would much rather make my own stats for novel characters. Although it would be interesting to see from the authors point of view how (s)he viualized their character, especially over the sourcebook stats which I find to be a joke in most cases But that wouldn't include all authors I doubt very many of them make up stats at all they probably just write background and characterization notes |
| Artalis |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 04:23:55
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
As a reader and a gamer, I don't want them. I try to ignore them in source books as well. I personally find them distracting and a bit of a let down compared to reading about the character in the book itself.
Sure some people want to spend hours debating whether or not a bus could physically make the jump that the bus from Speed made. I'd rather enjoy the movie and suspend my disbelief rather than dwell on the mechanics of it all.
The same goes for these novels. I don't want them to resemble the game. The last thing I want to read about is the stealthy rogue sneaking up behind the veteran guard and stabbing him repeatedly in the back until he finally drops. Applying game mechanics doesn't lend to the story.
In terms of the books adding to the games I run and play in, I'd far rather dwell on the fluff and the personas of the various characters.
Sarta
I respect your stance but I hardly think that a little insert in the book would be all that annoying or distracting. I just thought that people buy the Heroes Lorebook and so on so there's a market for it
Why not give (at least some) gamers what they want since they are the core audience. It would be kinda cool since it would be like a snapshot in time showing what the various characters capabilities were at that point, instead of one set of stats for all time periods.
Again just a thought. |
| Artalis |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 04:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
Let's face it. In a novel that's based on a game world like the Realms, the people who read it are gamers. Why not give them a little something extra?
Not necessarily. I was reading TSR novels long before I ever rolled my first ability score.
OK that's great but I think you are in the minority there...
My argument stands. Perhaps I should have said "The majority of the readers are gamers." I didn't mean to suggest that only gamers read the books but rather that they comprise the primary audience. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 03:54:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not necessarily. I was reading TSR novels long before I ever rolled my first ability score.
Ditto. I didn't know FR or Dragonlance or Ravenloft where campaign settings until my late teens. I grew up reading the novels and playing the puter games while being ignorant that those novels and games were also RPG worlds.
And I wouldn't want stat's in the novel itself. I don't use "official" stats and it would be a bother to see them in the novels. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 03:25:20
As a reader and a gamer, I don't want them. I try to ignore them in source books as well. I personally find them distracting and a bit of a let down compared to reading about the character in the book itself.
Sure some people want to spend hours debating whether or not a bus could physically make the jump that the bus from Speed made. I'd rather enjoy the movie and suspend my disbelief rather than dwell on the mechanics of it all.
The same goes for these novels. I don't want them to resemble the game. The last thing I want to read about is the stealthy rogue sneaking up behind the veteran guard and stabbing him repeatedly in the back until he finally drops. Applying game mechanics doesn't lend to the story.
In terms of the books adding to the games I run and play in, I'd far rather dwell on the fluff and the personas of the various characters.
Sarta |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 03:18:37
quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
Let's face it. In a novel that's based on a game world like the Realms, the people who read it are gamers. Why not give them a little something extra?
Not necessarily. I was reading TSR novels long before I ever rolled my first ability score. |
| Artalis |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 02:54:57
I sort of disagree with the comment about a "glorified transcript" I have seen some transcripts (and been a part of writing some) that have put some novels I have read to shame. Nobody specific mind you, so don't think I am criticizing anyone in particular.
Writing is writing, art is art. In a group of seriously dedicated pbem'ers with a gift for writing it becomes so much more than a game.
Let's face it. In a novel that's based on a game world like the Realms, the people who read it are gamers. Why not give them a little something extra?
As a creator of characters I personally am honored when a gamer wants to use one of my creations in his game rather than create his own. To me that means he respects my work.
Just playing devils advocate  |
| James P. Davis |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 00:04:48
I must agree with Richard and Sirius, character stats should be reserved for actual game-related products like Dragon Magazine and supplements. Stats are fun, but should be a reflection of the novel, not a part of them. Since there are a great majority of readers who follow the stories and do not play the game, it would be unfair to ask those fans to pay more for something they neither understand or use. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 21:37:31
Some people already look down on rpg-based novels as not "real" books. Including character stats would, in my opinion, invite even more scorn by intensifying the impression that the story amounts to nothing more than a glorified transcript of a gaming session.
For that reason, I wouldn't want the gaming stats in the actual novels. If they're going to run anywhere, I'd much rather have it be in Dragon. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 20:30:27
quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
My question is this.Would there ever be a time when characters have their stats included in that said novel??Just charge a little extra on the book.That way you get paid regardless.Would any author be willing to do that???Would it be a hassle?Too much time to do?Would fans like to see that???Or should a novel just tell the story?I wouldn't mind seeing stats included in with the novel.Anyone else????
No way would I wish to pay extra just to have a character's stats included in the book. Tell the story as you put it. If there's a desire for stats, it can be put in a web site posting, a dragon magazine article, or created by some imaginative fan. |
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