| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:17:30
Thieves can not be good!
Like many I enjoy reading about thieves and rouges, they are frequently interesting characters, they do and experience thrilling things, but the are not for the most part heroes, and they are not GOOD.
Thazienne Uskevren; a thief, is a main character in “The Halls of Stormweather,” “Sands of the Soul,” and “The Crimson Gold” By Voronica Whitney-Robinson
WOTC’s “Character Statistics: Thazienne Uskevren,” states that she has a chaotic GOOD alignment! How can a thief have a good alignment?
As for alignment:
She is a thief, she dose this for kicks and not out of necessity or any possible altruistic motives. In fact she is extremely wealthy, bored, and spoiled.
1) Thieves- deliberately prey on other human beings.
2) Thieves- knowingly cause harm to other people, emotionally, financially, and sometimes physically.
3) Thieves- who commit burglaries while armed (as she does), always risk that they will kill their victim or another innocent person if discovered in the act.
4) Thieves- know that they harm society, know that if caught it will harm their families, yet they are selfish enough to still be thieves.
Perhaps if the thief is descent in their other aspects of their lives, such a person could be considered NEUTRAL, if not then they are by definition EVIL!
As for Tazi, chaotic neutral is the best that I would think she could be.
So, how can a thief have a good alignment? I suppose the example of ‘Robin Hood’ or someone who steals to survive, or provide food for their children, but baring that it would be as unlikely as a GOOD/assassin or a GOOD/rapist.
Perhaps, those who have been the victims of thieves, or who served the law for years putting criminals behind bars, might feel a bit more intense over this issue. But, still I wonder what is WOTC thinking?
 
P.S. One can be a ROGUE and not be a THIEF. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 15:02:09
Well, my feeble brain interprets this problem to be a matter of definition.
If one defines "stealing" as being a sufficient condition for "thief-hood", then alignment has yet to be established. Separating rogue from thief is not a matter of attitude or alignment...it is a matter of profession.
Stealing is a neutral profession as far as D&D defines it. I happen to feel that honest intention is the only indicator of alignment (in other words, a paladin being forcibly controlled and made to murder an innocent is STILL of good alignment). That said, stealing can take many forms.
Here is my argument with the good Magic Matt's points...
1) Thieves- deliberately prey on other human beings. The issue that I have with this argument is that the deliberate "preying" upon other humans sounds very vile indeed, however, taking advantage of others is not necessarily evil - it is survivalistic.
2) Thieves- knowingly cause harm to other people, emotionally, financially, and sometimes physically. Other classes do this is well. Does this make a sorcerer evil if he harms another? Any other being at all? Fighters do the exact same thing. In truth, I will agree with Matt if we define "other people" to mean "innocent people". However, a thief who harms a tyrant....?
3) Thieves- who commit burglaries while armed (as she does), always risk that they will kill their victim or another innocent person if discovered in the act.
Again, the act is not important. What is important is who the deed is done against and the intention behind the action.
4) Thieves- know that they harm society, know that if caught it will harm their families, yet they are selfish enough to still be thieves. Every adventurer takes this risk everyday. Singling out thieves is a fallacy of definition. One could argue that the Lords of Waterdeep do the EXACT same thing, as "if caught it will harm their families, yet they are selfish enough to still be Lords of Waterdeep", yet the Lords are undeniably good.
So...that's all I got. Thanks!
|
| Lina |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 13:38:48
I don't actually believe that the general "Thief" term applies to Tazi Uskerven. Even though she steals in her past time and for a challenge, she never gains anything financially from her exploits. Who ever actually heard of a thief that returns the stolen items to their rightfull owner? (she does this to her suitors which her mother arranges for her).
I think that the Chaotic Good alignment does fit in with Tazi's character. In the novels I have come across with Tazi, she has always been portrayed as a free-adventuring spirit with skills in thieving of course. And eventhough she has a chaotic side to her, she almost always obeys the laws/rules and does things she deems right. A neutral character would not interfere with things, they'd sit back and watch things unfold. |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 04:59:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
[quote]
[While this may have been true of Tazi in her earlier life (I haven't read the Sembia series yet), I certainly felt she fit the Chaotic Good mold in Crimson Gold. I believe the current stats for the character reflect the events of that story.
You, may be right, I had not considered that Tazi may have changed her alignment!
Perhaps the death of her father triggered such a change? This is intriguing, and I hope you are right. It is certainly something to think about. It would make more sense than just giving her a CG alignment for the hell of it. [Now I will have to buy the next Tazi book to find out!]
|
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 04:39:08
Cardinal Deimos
I enjoyed your argument, I do not agree with it, but I am glad you put forth your view. It is certainly those who disagree with us, who causes us the greatest intellectual consideration, and provoke us to re-evaluate and sharpen our positions.
|
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 04:38:23
We ask that perhaps we should all just sit back a little bit. While nothing is really occuring as of yet, We fear that we may be heading into some very treacherous waters (this happens when morality and ethics come into play)... Belief and Politcs.... two of the most intresting topics.. but also the most at risk... We would have more to say...but for the sake of unity we bow out of this one. To those continuing... beware...   |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 04:26:36
quote:
Originally posted by Marshal
Magic Matt, you're giving us the definition from the real world, while Forgotten Realms is and imaginative world, where Wizards are making the rules, so it's up to them to judge wether a character is good or bad. Besides, do you believe that your moral view are the absolutely correct one's? While you think it was moraly wrong, other people may disagree with you.
It is the responsibility of reasoning people to make moral distinctions. It is the basis of the principle of democracy, that an enlightened, principled, and reasoning people make judgments that affect the rule of society. To be unable to make reasoned value judgments is to slide into moral relevancy, something no democracy can long survive. That is the path that leads to anarchy, and ultimately totalitarianism.
So, yes, as a reasoned, well educated person, I am able to make moral judgments!
|
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:52:00
It all really comes down to Laws. Laws are decrees of a governing body. Now if the governing body is evil, oppressive and just generally full of naughtiness, then a thief could be good. Thieves usually cannot be lawful, that We'll more or less state however, to say theives cannot be good? That, we're afraid to say, is debatable. As for the exceptions (ie. was the only life they knew or whatnot) there is always a choice. Everything even the most choiceless events do actually have a choice. Yes, the other options usually lead to a 99.999...% probability of immediate death. Still there is that choice, not a pretty or advisable choice but a choice none the less. Good and Evil, Law and Chaos... It's all subjective really as the generalized way of measuring is usually lop-sided.
Example (and a Faerunian example to boot), The Drow. The Drow are seen as an evil race for what they do, however that is simply how life is for them. They have a choice to flow with their race or go against (and usually die in horrible ways) But do they view themselves as out right evil? Those that do not know anything of the surface do not, and those that do.. well that's up to them to decide for themselves.
The noble that oppesses his peasants and taxes them to near death and starvation is evil and the Law, the thief that steals food from the noble's food stores to secretly distribute it to the people is both unlawful but perhaps good.
It is usually unlikly that a thief is good (usually neutral or the selfish evil) but they still exists.
We repeat though Good and Evil, Law and Chaos... It's all subjective.
We won't judge though, for it is not us that has any right to do so. Well we've said our little lecture again (and we're sure there are many sick of seeing out little view points) so we'll take our leave now.
May your thoughts lead you to enlightenment |
| Marshal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:12:11
Magic Matt, you're giving us the definition from the real world, while Forgotten Realms is and imaginative world, where Wizards are making the rules, so it's up to them to judge wether a character is good or bad. Besides, do you believe that your moral view are the absolutely correct one's? While you think it was moraly wrong, other people may disagree with you. |
| Kameron M. Franklin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:07:20
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
One can be a ROGUE and not be a THIEF. Non thief rogues such as; spies, treasure hunters, bounty hunters, big game hunters, gigolos, courtesans, sailors, teamsters, bartenders, bouncers, privateers, explorers, swashbucklers, archeologist, scouts, guides, writers, and LAWYERS, just to name a few! Thieves are criminals who prey on other people… and no that’s not what lawyers do.
I totally agree. In fact, this was one of my complaints (and there weren't many) about the Rogue series: they were all thieves! I would have liked to have seen some of the other roles a rogue can play explored.
quote:
WOTC, did make a criminal thief, Tazi, GOOD. The charter has no extenuating or justifiable reasons for her criminal behavior. That is morally wrong on the part of WOTC, in my opinion, and the original focus of this post.
While this may have been true of Tazi in her earlier life (I haven't read the Sembia series yet), I certainly felt she fit the Chaotic Good mold in Crimson Gold. I believe the current stats for the character reflect the events of that story. |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 16:47:36
Theft is a legal definition, which applies to a type of criminal.
A thief is a criminal who commits theft. THEFT is the act, with intent to permently deprive, of unlawfully taking without consent the property, goods, or services, of another person or entity.
James Bond- is a spy with thieving skills, a rogue not a thief.
Indiana Jones- is a archeologist/treasure hunter, a rogue not a thief.
Robin Hood- is a guerrilla/political insurgent, and a thief, but justifiable do to circumstances.
WOTC, did make a criminal thief, Tazi, GOOD. The charter has no extenuating or justifiable reasons for her criminal behavior. That is morally wrong on the part of WOTC, in my opinion, and the original focus of this post.
|
| Josh Davids |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 08:02:17
I know this is breaking the mold of the original topic by going into dragonlance but there was a good series a while back I read about a rogue style character, a thief in fact that was good. I forget the name it has been so long since I read it but it was a good series and shows how a thief can be good and honorable. The characters name was Sir Pirvan I believe.
To me a thief can still be good if he does it for reasons other then selfishness, in fact writing about one right now. He is a thief that will be instrumental in either saving or dooming the world to a few dark years. He is needed, as Thomas put up, to steal something from the bad guys(actually sneak into a demon ruled land and steal a few things from them before they can open up a gate or bring down a magical seal, he gets caught won’t be pretty what he will go through). Overall the character is good at heart, stole at first just to feed himself then finding out how good he was stole to help others, only taking from the rich and giving to the poor when he was lucky enough. It brings him into conflict with the merchant guild of the city, thieves guild since he is poaching on their areas, a local powerful wizard, etc such is the price of a good heart. The guy was a street rat, good heart and doesn’t have an evil bone in his body.
In the end it comes down to the character itself, why do they steal and what is in their heart. Thieves just like everyone else have a potential for good or evil, it depends on the choices they make where they fall.
|
| Marshal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 07:47:38
I think what we have here is difference in understanding the term. Magic Matt, don't you think that you youself have given a lot of exceptions, showing, that thieves can be GOOD? It's not the profession, it's the character. And a thief can be GOOD if he doesn't steal in order to make other people suffer, if he isn't a careless guy who makes his own living on the suffering of others. There are just to many possibilities in which thieves can be good or bad. Even a wealthy person who steals for fun can be good, because he isn't stealing in order to make someone suffer, he sees it as a challange. |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 02:14:36
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid
How would you categorize someone who practices thievery as a means of deterring other thieves? For example, someone who plans and executes thefts on behalf of a security company to test out their systems, or to test guard personnel to see if they follow correct procedures, is, at least in d20 terms, a thief. Programmers who make an honest living trying to hack the most current computer security systems so that the software producers can improve on their designs are, too.
What about specially trained goverment agents who steal potentially dangerous materials/plans/weapons from adversarial nations or regimes? Plots of novels, television shows, and movies constantly exhibit characters who (for example) break into the enemy dictator's factories to steal the plans for the weapon of mass destruction before they can be turned on innocent people. Just look at the TV show "Alias." Is Sydney Bristow precluded from being good simply because she has stolen things from her government's enemies? Is James Bond neutral or evil when he steals the secret weapon from the diabolical crimlord-du-jour for the good of queen and country?
What about the kid who keeps stealing his mom's cigarettes out of her purse, hoping she will stop smoking? Or the younger sister who steals her older brother's stash of drugs from his locker, hoping to keep him from getting caught and expelled? Misguided though they may be, both of those examples seem completely altruistic to me.
Whether you are trying to define a thief strictly in terms of the d20 rules, or by the definition of taking something that doesn't belong to you, but for a moral reason, I think there can be good thieves.
Thomas
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
One can be a ROGUE and not be a THIEF. Non thief rogues such as; spies, treasure hunters, bounty hunters, big game hunters, gigolos, courtesans, sailors, teamsters, bartenders, bouncers, privateers, explorers, swashbucklers, archeologist, scouts, guides, writers, and LAWYERS, just to name a few!
add security consultants, etc........
|
| Thomas M. Reid |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 02:05:54
How would you categorize someone who practices thievery as a means of deterring other thieves? For example, someone who plans and executes thefts on behalf of a security company to test out their systems, or to test guard personnel to see if they follow correct procedures, is, at least in d20 terms, a thief. Programmers who make an honest living trying to hack the most current computer security systems so that the software producers can improve on their designs are, too.
What about specially trained goverment agents who steal potentially dangerous materials/plans/weapons from adversarial nations or regimes? Plots of novels, television shows, and movies constantly exhibit characters who (for example) break into the enemy dictator's factories to steal the plans for the weapon of mass destruction before they can be turned on innocent people. Just look at the TV show "Alias." Is Sydney Bristow precluded from being good simply because she has stolen things from her government's enemies? Is James Bond neutral or evil when he steals the secret weapon from the diabolical crimlord-du-jour for the good of queen and country?
What about the kid who keeps stealing his mom's cigarettes out of her purse, hoping she will stop smoking? Or the younger sister who steals her older brother's stash of drugs from his locker, hoping to keep him from getting caught and expelled? Misguided though they may be, both of those examples seem completely altruistic to me.
Whether you are trying to define a thief strictly in terms of the d20 rules, or by the definition of taking something that doesn't belong to you, but for a moral reason, I think there can be good thieves.
Thomas |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:19:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
[quote]Originally posted by Tyros
I don’t think an Archeologist/college professor falls into the category of a thief, at least not usually. 'Indiana Jones' might be a bit of a rogue, but not a thief. He would be a Lawful Good Paladin (Oghma), with all of his crusading for good, fighting evil, resorting lost treasures, all without financial rewards!
Indiana Jones is not your typical archaeologist/college professor. To me, he's definitely a Rogue, with probably a few levels in the Dungeon Delver prestige class.
As for a Lawful Good paladin, he doesn't believe in divine beings (see Last Crusade), and the lawful part is debatable. While he definitely has a personal code of ethics he follows, Indy has no qualms about trodding roughshod over local laws and customs to get what he wants.
My vote: Chaotic Good Rogue.
You are probably right, I will of course defer to your expertise in the matter!
But he’s certainly not a thief, just a rogue!
One can be a ROGUE and not be a THIEF. Non thief rogues such as; spies, treasure hunters, bounty hunters, big game hunters, gigolos, courtesans, sailors, teamsters, bartenders, bouncers, privateers, explorers, swashbucklers, archeologist, scouts, guides, writers, and LAWYERS, just to name a few! Thieves are criminals who prey on other people… and no that’s not what lawyers do.
|
| Arivia |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:16:37
quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
I don’t think an Archeologist/college professor falls into the category of a thief, at least not usually. 'Indiana Jones' might be a bit of a rogue, but not a thief. He would be a Lawful Good Paladin (Oghma), with all of his crusading for good, fighting evil, resorting lost treasures, all without financial rewards!
Indiana Jones is not your typical archaeologist/college professor. To me, he's definitely a Rogue, with probably a few levels in the Dungeon Delver prestige class.
As for a Lawful Good paladin, he doesn't believe in divine beings (see Last Crusade), and the lawful part is debatable. While he definitely has a personal code of ethics he follows, Indy has no qualms about trodding roughshod over local laws and customs to get what he wants.
My vote: Chaotic Good Rogue.
I agree. Last I checked, a personal code of ethics would be chaotic good...or at least in all the definitions I've read. |
| Kameron M. Franklin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:09:15
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
[quote]Originally posted by Tyros
I don’t think an Archeologist/college professor falls into the category of a thief, at least not usually. 'Indiana Jones' might be a bit of a rogue, but not a thief. He would be a Lawful Good Paladin (Oghma), with all of his crusading for good, fighting evil, resorting lost treasures, all without financial rewards!
Indiana Jones is not your typical archaeologist/college professor. To me, he's definitely a Rogue, with probably a few levels in the Dungeon Delver prestige class.
As for a Lawful Good paladin, he doesn't believe in divine beings (see Last Crusade), and the lawful part is debatable. While he definitely has a personal code of ethics he follows, Indy has no qualms about trodding roughshod over local laws and customs to get what he wants.
My vote: Chaotic Good Rogue. |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:08:36
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Are you sure? I'd be especially inclined to see Talen shifting towards good by the end of the Tamuli...
It could happen, people change their alignment, good people go bad, bad people find redemption, neutrals change their spots... |
| Arivia |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:02:50
Are you sure? I'd be especially inclined to see Talen shifting towards good by the end of the Tamuli... |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 00:00:18
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
*Throws some non-FR counterparts on the fire*:
David Eddings:Talen, Platime, Stragen, Silk(I'm sure there's a few more I've forgotten.)
Ed's Aglirta novels:Craer Delnbone, procurer to Regent Blackgult; Overduke of Aglirta.
Talen and Silk, are Neutral, I’m sure you can guess why! 
(Don’t know the others, but most likely the same, if they are not criminal thieves and just scoundrel type rogues)
|
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 23:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Tyros
Hail!
Another spin on the rogue character (other than Robin Hood) might be Indiana Jones. Most would agree that good ol'Indy was a good ol'guy.
Of course, his job, when he wasn't teaching or romanicng, was to break into old ruins, and disarm/over-come the traps and puzzles that the builders of the ruin had originally built to keep thieves out. His job was to steal from those who built the ruin. But I mean, come'on, would YOU not want to have Indiana Jones over for supper?
I don’t think an Archeologist/college professor falls into the category of a thief, at least not usually. 'Indiana Jones' might be a bit of a rogue, but not a thief. He would be a Lawful Good Paladin (Oghma), with all of his crusading for good, fighting evil, resorting lost treasures, all without financial rewards!
|
| Arivia |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 23:44:02
*Throws some non-FR counterparts on the fire*:
David Eddings:Talen, Platime, Stragen, Silk(I'm sure there's a few more I've forgotten.)
Ed's Aglirta novels:Craer Delnbone, procurer to Regent Blackgult; Overduke of Aglirta. |
| Tyros |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 21:57:50
Hail!
Another spin on the rogue character (other than Robin Hood) might be Indiana Jones. Most would agree that good ol'Indy was a good ol'guy.
Of course, his job, when he wasn't teaching or romanicng, was to break into old ruins, and disarm/over-come the traps and puzzles that the builders of the ruin had originally built to keep thieves out. His job was to steal from those who built the ruin. But I mean, come'on, would YOU not want to have Indiana Jones over for supper?
Frith! |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 21:30:28
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
You keep saying Rouge, which is "red" in French, if I recall correctly. The proper term is "rogue."
Dyslexic sorry! The spell checker doesn’t always help. It seems to speak French, wow just what I need!
|
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 21:17:33
You keep saying Rouge, which is "red" in French, if I recall correctly. The proper term is "rogue." |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:59:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of my all-time fave characters that I've played was a thief... I think the intent is rather important, as with the Robin Hood example.
And then there are characters like Jimmy the Hand, from the Riftwar Saga. He was a thief and a pickpocket, but that was the only life he knew. When he was given the opportunity to walk the straight and narrow, he did so -- though some of his thiefly abilities still aided him throughout his career as one of the Kingdom's most powerful nobles. Despite his shady past, he eventually became the First Advisor to the King.
Jimmy the Hand, was a thief by necessity, to survive, that’s one of my listed exceptions. Then, he became an ex-thief, who used his acquired skills for good! So he would be a good/rogue, I would think.
[good book by the way]
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:52:03
One of my all-time fave characters that I've played was a thief... I think the intent is rather important, as with the Robin Hood example.
And then there are characters like Jimmy the Hand, from the Riftwar Saga. He was a thief and a pickpocket, but that was the only life he knew. When he was given the opportunity to walk the straight and narrow, he did so -- though some of his thiefly abilities still aided him throughout his career as one of the Kingdom's most powerful nobles. Despite his shady past, he eventually became the First Advisor to the King. |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:47:58
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Actually, it's entirely possible to be good and still be selfish. I stand by the any-alignment bit, even Lawful Good. Remember, 'rogues' (such a misleading title) aren't always thieves, and not all thieves actually steal for money. Spies are often good thieves.
As for the character, though, I'd have to agree. Chaotic Neutral sounds right.
I agree with thieves, who are not thieves, and rogues who don’t rogue(steal/rape/assonate/et cetera), but not thieves who are thieves…. I think….. they would not by nature be good? I think…..
|
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:41:19
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
Thieves can not be good!
So Kevin Costner in Robin Hood was CN? CE? Kevin Costner = evil. Not sure I can even argue with that one.
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
So, how can a thief have a good alignment? I suppose the example of ‘Robin Hood’ or someone who steals to survive, or provide food for their children,
Er, covered the that lower down in the post.
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Matt
Thieves can not be good!
So Kevin Costner in Robin Hood was CN? CE? Kevin Costner = evil. Not sure I can even argue with that one. |
|
|
