| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jornan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 01:45:40
http://www.amazon.com/The-Companions-Sundering-Book/dp/0786963719/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1354066882&sr=8-2&keywords=the+companions+r.a.+salvatore
Judging by this product description I would say The Sundering is bringing the CotH back.
I was hoping Drizzt would move forward with new companions and new adventures, but I trust RAS to do what is right for his story. The fact that he was basically forced to kill everyone off makes it a bit better if he brings them back.
I'm looking forward to it in any case and really looking forward to reading two Drizzt books a year.
Now if only Richard Lee Byers was only on the same two book a year contract... ;) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jornan |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 04:30:10
No, I was predicting that they were coming back based on the product description. I didn't say "so Drizzt will spend The Companions reminiscing about the CotH. The various interviews after the fact have just confirmed what I originally thought was probably going to happen. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 04:48:10
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
So basically I was right. 
No, in your OP, you said that you were assuming that the COTH were coming back based on the product description. And you were wrong, because the product description only said that Drizzt would be conteplating his lost companions, and not that they would be returning.
But now, you're thinking that they will return based on a lot of accumulated interviews and such.
Those compiled interviews are not the same thing as the product description.  |
| jornan |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 03:58:55
So basically I was right. |
| Euranna |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 21:52:30
I thought that would make you happy CD.  |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 04:21:41
Oh man, I can't wait to read it now, and I am both nervous and excited to see the results! I have my hopes on what will happen. |
| Euranna |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 01:19:31
For those interested, RAS posted a link to this interview earlier today. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/the-greater-the-risk-the-greater-the-reward-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/
Interesting enough, today, after I read this interview (that made me apprehensive and excited for August), I saw a link posted to a Neil Gaiman blog post about what it is to be an author and how you have to write to please yourself first ( if you are interested: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 01:47:00
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You make some interesting points, but then in TFoN, Zak is shown meeting the Spider Mage, who tells him that he can best fight Lolth by pretending to serve her, and the wizard also tells him that there are others like them, and that Lolth's hold over the drow is not complete. Perhaps Zak stayed there in part to try to seek out others, and to battle the evil of his people by pretending to serve it. He served Malice by killing priestesses in order to undermine Lolth, an ironic turn that she never relaized. Drizzt himself never knew of this, as Zak apparently never told him about that meeting, only hinted at the purpose he felt he served by killing Lolth's clerics, in the scene where they reconciled after their battle over the supposed "death" of Ellifain (the elf girl). While they are talking, Zak tells Drizzt that he feels he is doing them a favor by sending them to meet their goddess, and that he is fighting back against the evil around him in the only way he can.
Regarding Zak going back to Malice again and again, the reason for that was simple enough- to refuse her would have meant death or worse. He'd already faced being turned into a drider once- I doubt he'd want to face that possibility again after having seen it first-hand. He knew better than to tempt fate a second time. The only reason he escaped the first time was because of the tiny golem that the Spider Mage sent to aid him. If not for Drizzt giving the Dagger to Lolth, Zak would no doubt have found himself executed when Malice found him alive and back in the house after his escape. She was ready to do just that when Matron Baenre herself stepped in and learned the truth about who the "pretty lady" was!
There are several problems with your interpretation of "TFON".
One, why would Zak fear certain death for leaving Menzo if young Drizzt could so easily leave Menzo not just once, but twice, on his last day in the city (Homeland, P5:C26 & C29)? Drizzt could do so, easily, thus so ought Zak to have been able.
Zaknafein supposedly felt trapped, and refused to leave Menzo (Homeland). Now, if he could not do so without dying, as you suggest, then why does "TFON", C1, open with a scene that has him leaving Menzo, going out into the Dark Dominion, past the furthest drow patrol region, to hunt kobolds? He doesn't die, there; he wasn't mortally linked to the city.
And again in C6, after he escapes the Cavern of the Lost, Zak flees into the Dark Dominion, and contemplates leaving Menzo for good. He deems himself (like Drizzt, years later) an "outcast, a pariah". He knows that he cannot return to Menzo.
The first time, when hunting the kobolds, Zak actually remarks that death lay around every corner out in the Underdark, but then he asks himself what would he have to fear. He lived with drow, the greatest horror of all! And so, he presses on to find those kobolds ("TFON", C1).
That pretty much shatters any would-be fear of dying alone out in the Underdark, on Zak's part.
And the second time, he again acknowledges that death lay out there for him in the wilds, but it was still preferable to facing Malice's punishment (C6).
So clearly there had to be something else that made him feel trapped by Menzo, and not any supposed fear of immediate death. It was only an emotional trap that held him.
In "TFON", C1, Zak considers leaving Menzo for good, since he had just successfully done so on a smaller basis. But he immediately sighs and dismisses the notion, thinking, "Like it or not, this was his home." Thus, Zak is not restricted to Menzo by anyone else, at all. He only feels attached to it.
Also, right there in "TFON",C1, Zak remarks to himself that he actually enjoyed killing the kobolds very much, even though he had no real reason to kill them, and this makes him wonder if he's even all that different from his kin. He thinks he's been corrupted.
And he also remarks that by killing kobolds, who are supposedly natural enemies of drow, he is actually pleasing Lolth, whom he hates. So he feels that he cannot help but do Lolth's bidding, despite himself, and enters into a funk (C1).
This ties in with the fact that Zak was already doing Malice's and Lolth's bidding long before this meeting with the Spider Mage. Zak was killing other priestesses for Malice, which was fun in the present, but which he felt remorse for, afterward, because he realized that it made him just one more willing pawn in the Way of Lolth (Homeland, P1:C1-C2).
He was irreverent towards Malice and Lolth for centuries, testing them, pushing Malice to her limits, and narrowly avoiding death on many occasions.
And when Zak has his final conversation with Drizzt (Home., P5:C25), Zak tells him that they are both trapped in Menzo.
Indeed, even in "TFON", Zak tells a jade spider that he is an "impostor" (C4), long before ever meeting with the Spider Mage.
And while he agreed to perform this mission for Malice, nevertheless Zak threw away the Dagger of Menzoberra rather than bring it back to the matron mother, and then lied about it and said that it was never there to begin with (C4).
So the meeting with the Spider Mage did not really have any bearing on Zak's state of mind: he felt trapped before, and he still felt trapped afterward. He was wildly insincere before, and still insincere after. He undermined Malice's authority while working for her before, and he undermined it after.
When Zak arrives late back in Menzo, Matron Malice is initially angry with him. At one point, she contemplates punishing him by demanding that he accompany her to her bedchamber and service her ("TFON", C2). But she reneges, because she knows that they would both actually experience some enjoyment from that, and she wanted to be clear to him that she was upset. Enjoyment or not, it's important to note that Malice actually considered having Zak service her to be a form of punishment. That's part of the trap, too.
(And never mind all the inconsistencies and logic holes!)
Incidentally, the recent Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue lorebook provides a spefific day of the year for the Festival of the Founding: 20 Ches. Since "TFON" begins approximately 2 days before the Festival, and Drizzt is described as being 11 years old, this allows us to finally pinpoint a specific range of dates for the short story: 18-21 Ches, 1309 DR.
I think there was a big difference between his kobold hunt at the beginning of that story, and actually leaving for good. Zak seems to have bought into the notion that going out on his own was tantamount to suicide, which is something I really can't see him doing, given his "never give up" attitude, which is another thing Drizzt seems to have inherited from him. Drow were taught that the Underdark was a dangerous place full of "evil" enemies lurking around every corner. That's why they patrolled the edges of their territory- to keep those enemies away. Zak knew that once he left that "safe" bubble of Menzo's domain, he would be COMPLETELY on his own, with no haven to fall back to. For most drow, that would be unthinkable. The belief that House was everything, and the ingrained belief that a drow without the support of his house and family was NOTHING- worthless and useless- must have been a huge deterant for him. Even Drizzt felt the same way when he first left, believing that he would probably prerish out there alone somewhere and no one would be there to know or care.
Zak seems to have feared that prospect far more than Drizzt did. When he contemplated leaving the second time, it was with the understanding that at that point, he truly had nothing left to loose- he'd already lost his home and family, as far as he was concenred. So what kept him from leaving? Not his emotional attatchment to Malice- he'd already admitted to himself that that was long gone- so what remained? Menzo was his home, and he knew it. It was all he knew, and he still did fear being alone and having no "safe" haven. Where would he go? He posed that question to Drizzt to point out that there WAS no safe place outside the city. He knew he would likely be fighting for survival at every turn, and at his age (he was over five hundred, at that point, IIRC) he knew it would inevitably lead to death. Strangely, he never seemed to think of the obvious solution when he and Drizzt were having that conversation- that is, both of them leaving together, and striking out on their own to collectively give Malice and Lolth the finger, as it were!
I do recall her threatening him with that punishment, but her reasoning seems flawed, since she knew they would both enjoy it. It seemed to be more a dig at him on the question of dominance, or basically it was her way of reminding him of who was in charge, more than an outright threat. He could NOT refuse, and he knew it. In that sense, it certainly could be considered a punishment, but it was a "pleasant" one, so she chose to punish him another way, that would not give him any visceral pleasure. I think it was an in-setting way of making the point that for a male drow, sex could be considered an unavoidable "chore", in spite of the fact that they do enjoy it!
And his meeting with the Spider Mage didn't change anything- on that point, you are most correct. What it DID do was confirm to Zak what he had suspected all along- that it was Lolth and Lolth alone, who was the cause of the drows' corruption and vice. The Spider Mage didn't tell him anything he had not already realized- he just gave Zak a way to focus his rage with a more subtle purpose, and showed him how to use Lolth's own rules against her. It was more of opening his eyes to the possibilities of beating her at her own game, than it was changing anything about his actions. He was basically telling him to pick and choose how and when to rebel against her. Wise words, IMO. Until that point, Zak had simply believed that there was no way to fight her doctrines, because anything he did would ultimately serve her- but that meeting showed him that he could fight her by APPEARING to serve her. Zak had not considered that distinction before.
He threw away the dagger in a moment of anger, but after that meeting, he realized that getting back on Malice's good side (since he had already discounted the practicallity of leaving) was the only way to survive. He was essentially compromising his ideals in the name of survival, but he also realized that it would mean he could continue to find ways to undermine Lolth. And in a way, he did- through his influence on Drizzt! And that, perhaps, was his greatest victory over her; he "saved" Drizzt from falling into her trap. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 22:40:44
Hey, thanks for the nod, folks. This is right up my alley!
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
[...] I actually wouldn't have minded if he held that view if the narrative painted it in a negative light.
The fact that, up until the Legacy, it was never portrayed as anything but positive(mainly because it was only ever touched on by Drizzt himself through his own self righteous view point) [...]
Well, you've got to recall that most of the people of Ten-Towns basically didn't trust him. Drizzt was a reclusive loner, and a weirdo drow at that! He looked funny, and had an emo air about him most of the time. And he lived all alone in a hole in the ground on the far side of the mountain. Then there was the fact that he sliced stuff up with those scimitars like nobody's business. There just was no telling what sort of vile, psychopathic things he might've done or been through, from the Ten-Townsmen's perspective.
I don't think the fact that Drizzt vowed not to kill another drow was actually presented as a positive. I think it was just declared in a neutral manner: take it or leave it.
From the very first time I read that passage at age 13, though, I thought something was amiss. I didn't think of it as being racist--that's not what stuck out to me. Rather, what seemed odd was that Bob had gone to such great lengths to present the drow as these patently evil monsters, and yet here was Drizzt regretting having killed one of them, and swearing never to do it again. What?! Why not?! If he could justify, as a ranger, killing animals for food and clothing, then how could he not justify killing just about the most evil lifeform that he was described as having encountered, up to that point in his life? It didn't add up.
So my reaction was just to write Drizzt off as "soft" on that point. He had a weakness when it came to violence against his own people.
I guess I was just waiving that aside, as a good little fanboy.
But then when you consider the conversation with Catti-brie in The Halfling's Gem, in which she points out to him how clueless he was about someone (her) whom he had known and traveled with for a long time, it made me think that Drizzt was a loner who just couldn't or hadn't ever connected with others much, yet. Seen in that light, it kinda made sense to me that he didn't feel that the others around him were his full equals. It made sense to me that he held his own people on a different level.
I didn't like it. I saw these aspects of his personality as flaws. But they made me feel sorry for him--not hate him.
If anything, I could tell from the beginning that Drizzt was supposed to be the sensitive pretty boy, and Wulf the muscle-bound jock, so I think that that tended to make me gravitate toward the mouthy, grumpy, ugly guy of the bunch: Bruenor. Detecting flaws in Drizzt probably just made me feel a little vindicated as an insecure young teenager, deep down inside! |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 21:46:30
Well his "softness:" in regards to killing his "own kind" was yet another area this Fascimile of Elric fell short of Elric in. I always assumed it was an attempt to differentiate D from Elric. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 19:32:20
That would be awesome, though you'd need at least a 102 and 103 as well, almost like a first year of a foreign language class. There is so much important Realms lore, not just the Drizzt novels, and I think it should be required that students taking the class should at least have some knowledge of what the Realms are. But yeah, anyway, back on topic...
In regards to Drizzt not killing other drow, it has been a long time since I've read the earlier novels, so I don't really remember his justifications, but it could be because he "saw himself in their eyes". Sounds cheesy, but unless you're a twisted creep (like those who have done the mass shootings in the past few weeks *cough cough*), you should feel something negative when you kill a person. You are looking into that person's eyes as the light fades from them, knowing it was -you- who caused that. Drizzt may not have been proud of his heritage, but he was born of drow parents, and he could not escape that.
But then again, Drizzt could have indeed felt that he was better than the rest of his kin, and didn't want to stoop to their level, so he vowed not to kill them. He wanted to "rise above them". |
| Rofocale |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 13:43:17
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Beast, I bow to your knowledge. I had no idea there was a reference to Drizzt's vow in The Crystal Shard. Excellent anayslis, as always.
I really don't mean for this to be a 'me too' post, but I've also been impressed with your knowledge for a while. Great read. You should be teaching literature somewhere. That would be a cool college course... Forgetton Realms Lore 101. Could you imagine the scholarly papers that would be written in that class? Well, back to the topic at hand... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 08:51:39
I understand the base reasoning for it. A lot of people have reasoning behind their racist view points; that doesn't change the fact that they're racist view points.
Like I said, I'm glad it's something that was dropped. And honestly, I actually wouldn't have minded if he held that view if the narrative painted it in a negative light.
The fact that, up until the Legacy, it was never portrayed as anything but positive(mainly because it was only ever touched on by Drizzt himself through his own self righteous view point) leads me to believe that Bob had to have the implications pointed out to him. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 04:30:01
Beast, I bow to your knowledge. I had no idea there was a reference to Drizzt's vow in The Crystal Shard. Excellent anayslis, as always. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 03:32:22
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Somewhat off topic, but I feel the need to bring it up. This passage and Drizzt's refusal to kill drow in the early books is something that rubbed me the wrong way to the point where I found it offensive. This idea that it is somehow worse to kill members of your own race than that of others, it reeks of unfortunate implications.
I'm glad it's an aspect that was later dropped.
Yeah. It was a pretty odd/flawed premise of RAS to go on. Drizzt's own people were pretty much universally evil killers, but he can't kill any of them...because they're his own race? But can kill scores of humans or duergar or giantkin or gnolls or barbarians or what-have-you. I'm sure Drizzt in The Crystal Shard would have wacked a drow NO problem until he was retconned.
Yeah thats very true. It was a weird idea, I dont know what they were thinking, maybe trying to showcase his sensitive side or whatever.
The first time Bob hinted at this notion was actually in The Crystal Shard, when he wrote:
quote:
That was the only time in his life that he had ever killed one of his own race, an act that thoroughly revolted him despite his feelings toward his people. (TCSh, P1:C7)
Drizzt was revolted by the act of killing someone that he saw as a member of his own race, which was someone that he could relate to, on a genetic, instinctive level. It probably felt a little like taking aim at himself--like the aversion against cannibalism.
At that point in his life, he had been thoroughly taught that only one race actually mattered, and all others were iblith. To kill a member of the only race that mattered would kinda suck.
Bob expanded upon this with his article on Drizzt in the lorebook Hall of Heroes:
quote:
It was the only time that Drizzt ever killed a fellow drow, an act that revolted him so profoundly that he vowed never to strike down one of his kin again. (HOH, p21)
There, Bob introduced the additional notion that Drizzt had sworn off of killing drow.
(I suppose he figured that the story probably needed an explanation why Drizzt had never killed any more dark elves. A vow made as much sense as anything, I guess.)
Regardless, in those passages, Bob cemented the core concept that killing another drow had been very unnerving to Drizzt. This was something that he wanted to preserve, even though Bob changed a lot of the other details about that particular act of killing.
For one, in the actual final fight in Homeland against Masoj, Drizzt didn't just kill Masoj--he also killed Alton DeVir. And Bob also completely changed the sequence of events involving the raid against the gnomes and the fight with the cave fisher, as well as Drizzt's rationale for going out of Menzo in the first place, and the idea that Masoj was totally unsuspecting that Drizzt was going to kill him.
Having Drizzt carry around a lingering oath about not killing another drow gave him a bit of an albatross about his neck, which was perfect for the sort of emo, tragic figure that Bob was going for in Drizzt, for awhile.
Yeah, it also amounted to tacit racism.
But think about it this way. As I mentioned above, Drizzt did not quickly, fully empathize with members of other races, just because he grew to judge his own race. He remained aloof and emotionally unavailable for a long time. In this way, he probably still harbored special, peculiar feelings for his own race, which were not to be supplanted by members of other races until a lot of time had passed. He could not see other races as equals, or even superiors, until he was ready.
Even if any of that makes the slightest bit of sense, Bob still realized that it amounted to racism. And so, eventually he had Drizzt acknowledge it, too:
quote:
To say, then, that I would never again slay a drow, purely because they and I are of the same physical heritage, strikes me now as wrong, as simply racist. To place the measure of a living being's worth above that of another simply because that being wears the same color skin as I belittles my principles. (The Legacy, P4)
I don't know if Bob realized this on his own, or if fans pointed it out to him. Either way, he did belatedly acknowledge it and fix it.
Even then, I still think that Bob had a bit of convoluted reasoning behind all of this. Drizzt stood in such stark judgment of his people, and was so thoroughly determined not to be like them, that he was setting out to leave Menzo forever. Having killed another drow seemed to be a bit of a compromise of that ideal--it made him seem, or at least feel, a lot like his fellow, evil drow. (Didn't he personally gain something tremendously valuable, even as he whacked Masoj: Guenhwyvar?) His oath to never kill another drow was actually wrapped up in the notion that he would hopefully never even meet another drow, due to his disgust with them. Avoid associating with them, and therefore avoid the opportunity and temptation to ever kill another drow, and he might just avoid becoming more like them. If he swore off of living their lifestyle, then he might just avoid being one of them.
I know; that's very convoluted! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 02:18:49
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You make some interesting points, but then in TFoN, Zak is shown meeting the Spider Mage, who tells him that he can best fight Lolth by pretending to serve her, and the wizard also tells him that there are others like them, and that Lolth's hold over the drow is not complete. Perhaps Zak stayed there in part to try to seek out others, and to battle the evil of his people by pretending to serve it. He served Malice by killing priestesses in order to undermine Lolth, an ironic turn that she never relaized. Drizzt himself never knew of this, as Zak apparently never told him about that meeting, only hinted at the purpose he felt he served by killing Lolth's clerics, in the scene where they reconciled after their battle over the supposed "death" of Ellifain (the elf girl). While they are talking, Zak tells Drizzt that he feels he is doing them a favor by sending them to meet their goddess, and that he is fighting back against the evil around him in the only way he can.
Regarding Zak going back to Malice again and again, the reason for that was simple enough- to refuse her would have meant death or worse. He'd already faced being turned into a drider once- I doubt he'd want to face that possibility again after having seen it first-hand. He knew better than to tempt fate a second time. The only reason he escaped the first time was because of the tiny golem that the Spider Mage sent to aid him. If not for Drizzt giving the Dagger to Lolth, Zak would no doubt have found himself executed when Malice found him alive and back in the house after his escape. She was ready to do just that when Matron Baenre herself stepped in and learned the truth about who the "pretty lady" was!
There are several problems with your interpretation of "TFON".
One, why would Zak fear certain death for leaving Menzo if young Drizzt could so easily leave Menzo not just once, but twice, on his last day in the city (Homeland, P5:C26 & C29)? Drizzt could do so, easily, thus so ought Zak to have been able.
Zaknafein supposedly felt trapped, and refused to leave Menzo (Homeland). Now, if he could not do so without dying, as you suggest, then why does "TFON", C1, open with a scene that has him leaving Menzo, going out into the Dark Dominion, past the furthest drow patrol region, to hunt kobolds? He doesn't die, there; he wasn't mortally linked to the city.
And again in C6, after he escapes the Cavern of the Lost, Zak flees into the Dark Dominion, and contemplates leaving Menzo for good. He deems himself (like Drizzt, years later) an "outcast, a pariah". He knows that he cannot return to Menzo.
The first time, when hunting the kobolds, Zak actually remarks that death lay around every corner out in the Underdark, but then he asks himself what would he have to fear. He lived with drow, the greatest horror of all! And so, he presses on to find those kobolds ("TFON", C1).
That pretty much shatters any would-be fear of dying alone out in the Underdark, on Zak's part.
And the second time, he again acknowledges that death lay out there for him in the wilds, but it was still preferable to facing Malice's punishment (C6).
So clearly there had to be something else that made him feel trapped by Menzo, and not any supposed fear of immediate death. It was only an emotional trap that held him.
In "TFON", C1, Zak considers leaving Menzo for good, since he had just successfully done so on a smaller basis. But he immediately sighs and dismisses the notion, thinking, "Like it or not, this was his home." Thus, Zak is not restricted to Menzo by anyone else, at all. He only feels attached to it.
Also, right there in "TFON",C1, Zak remarks to himself that he actually enjoyed killing the kobolds very much, even though he had no real reason to kill them, and this makes him wonder if he's even all that different from his kin. He thinks he's been corrupted.
And he also remarks that by killing kobolds, who are supposedly natural enemies of drow, he is actually pleasing Lolth, whom he hates. So he feels that he cannot help but do Lolth's bidding, despite himself, and enters into a funk (C1).
This ties in with the fact that Zak was already doing Malice's and Lolth's bidding long before this meeting with the Spider Mage. Zak was killing other priestesses for Malice, which was fun in the present, but which he felt remorse for, afterward, because he realized that it made him just one more willing pawn in the Way of Lolth (Homeland, P1:C1-C2).
He was irreverent towards Malice and Lolth for centuries, testing them, pushing Malice to her limits, and narrowly avoiding death on many occasions.
And when Zak has his final conversation with Drizzt (Home., P5:C25), Zak tells him that they are both trapped in Menzo.
Indeed, even in "TFON", Zak tells a jade spider that he is an "impostor" (C4), long before ever meeting with the Spider Mage.
And while he agreed to perform this mission for Malice, nevertheless Zak threw away the Dagger of Menzoberra rather than bring it back to the matron mother, and then lied about it and said that it was never there to begin with (C4).
So the meeting with the Spider Mage did not really have any bearing on Zak's state of mind: he felt trapped before, and he still felt trapped afterward. He was wildly insincere before, and still insincere after. He undermined Malice's authority while working for her before, and he undermined it after.
When Zak arrives late back in Menzo, Matron Malice is initially angry with him. At one point, she contemplates punishing him by demanding that he accompany her to her bedchamber and service her ("TFON", C2). But she reneges, because she knows that they would both actually experience some enjoyment from that, and she wanted to be clear to him that she was upset. Enjoyment or not, it's important to note that Malice actually considered having Zak service her to be a form of punishment. That's part of the trap, too.
(And never mind all the inconsistencies and logic holes!)
Incidentally, the recent Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue lorebook provides a spefific day of the year for the Festival of the Founding: 20 Ches. Since "TFON" begins approximately 2 days before the Festival, and Drizzt is described as being 11 years old, this allows us to finally pinpoint a specific range of dates for the short story: 18-21 Ches, 1309 DR. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 01:55:44
I think it had more to do with the idea that it was hypocritical of him to be willing to do what most drow did in killing other drow, when he professed to having a higher moral code than them. In fact, at that point, he was basically unwilling to kill sentient beings AT ALL, and up until Sojourn, he didn't. That changed during the battle in Montolio's grove, and when he killed the gnolls that had planned to kill the famers. He realized that to follow his convictions, there would be times when he would have to kill in order to protect the innocent. And that's exactly what he did. But he still felt reluctant to kill his own kind, simply out of a feeling of (misguided) racial loyalty. ie, he tried to be better than them by refusing to stoop to killing his own people the way most of them did. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 16:27:33
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
That fact did little to dispel the guilt in Drizzt as he looked upon the corpse [of Masoj]. He had killed another drow, had taken the life of one of his own people. Was he trapped, as Zaknafein had been trapped for so very many years, in a cycle of violence that would know no end? (Home., P5:C29)
Somewhat off topic, but I feel the need to bring it up. This passage and Drizzt's refusal to kill drow in the early books is something that rubbed me the wrong way to the point where I found it offensive. This idea that it is somehow worse to kill members of your own race than that of others, it reeks of unfortunate implications.
I'm glad it's an aspect that was later dropped.
Yeah. It was a pretty odd/flawed premise of RAS to go on. Drizzt's own people were pretty much universally evil killers, but he can't kill any of them...because they're his own race? But can kill scores of humans or duergar or giantkin or gnolls or barbarians or what-have-you. I'm sure Drizzt in The Crystal Shard would have wacked a drow NO problem until he was retconned.
Yeah thats very true. It was a weird idea, I dont know what they were thinking, maybe trying to showcase his sensitive side or whatever. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 15:27:19
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
That fact did little to dispel the guilt in Drizzt as he looked upon the corpse [of Masoj]. He had killed another drow, had taken the life of one of his own people. Was he trapped, as Zaknafein had been trapped for so very many years, in a cycle of violence that would know no end? (Home., P5:C29)
Somewhat off topic, but I feel the need to bring it up. This passage and Drizzt's refusal to kill drow in the early books is something that rubbed me the wrong way to the point where I found it offensive. This idea that it is somehow worse to kill members of your own race than that of others, it reeks of unfortunate implications.
I'm glad it's an aspect that was later dropped.
Yeah. It was a pretty odd/flawed premise of RAS to go on. Drizzt's own people were pretty much universally evil killers, but he can't kill any of them...because they're his own race? But can kill scores of humans or duergar or giantkin or gnolls or barbarians or what-have-you. I'm sure Drizzt in The Crystal Shard would have wacked a drow NO problem until he was retconned. |
| realmsrider |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 06:16:14
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by realmsrider
Here's kind of a strange question. If somehow Zak had been saved or brought back do you think he would be proud of what's Drizzt's become? I've been following Drizzt's life since the first printing of Crystal Shard and honestly I'm not not sure if like him the way I used to. If anything I'm worried he may not survive the Sundering.
I'm pretty sure Zak was saved. BEAST reminded me of some passages to suggest as such, and I actually emailed RAS asking if he could tell me where Zak's soul was. His response has me hopeful, and he said that Mielikki grants special favors to Drizzt after all, and Zak's heart never belonged to Lolth. He mentioned the Green Fields, and I asked for clarification because that's where the halflings are, and Mielikki's realm is either the Deep Wilds or the House of Nature, but anyway. I'm still wondering if he'll appear in that pocket-dimension, which I can never remember how to spell.
As for Zak currently being proud of Drizzt...that's a hard one. I'm sure he's watching his son, but he could be shaking his head. Or maybe not. Zak's own morals were constantly tried, and for "rebel" drow, the lines of right and wrong blur. For Drizzt, it has been black and white--until recently. I don't think the lines were so clear for Zak, though I do believe, as others have suggested, he pushed his principles onto Drizzt. He could not take be what he wanted to be, but he wanted that for his son.
Now, however, Drizzt is becoming more drow, but still has that Drizzt-iness. I personally do not like his current path, but from an analytical perspective (though BEAST you might be better suited for this!), he could be going through a trial period like Zak did, though obviously with different circumstances. I don't know if Zak would be proud of him, per se, but he might see it as a "growing period". It's kind of like the parent who still loves his child but has to take a step back and let that child make his own mistakes and learn from them.
As for Drizzt dying in the Sundering...whew, mixed emotions there for me. On the one hand, I would scream "no!" if he died, but on the other hand, his story has gone on a long time, and I get the feeling Bob might be getting tired of writing the Drizzt saga.
Drizzt never really has to die. Maybe Salvatore will do what William King did for Warhammer's Gotrek and Felix. He passed the torch to Nathan Long to keep the story alive. In mid 2013 the mantle will belong to Josh Reynold's. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 05:14:32
quote:
Originally posted by realmsrider
Here's kind of a strange question. If somehow Zak had been saved or brought back do you think he would be proud of what's Drizzt's become? I've been following Drizzt's life since the first printing of Crystal Shard and honestly I'm not not sure if like him the way I used to. If anything I'm worried he may not survive the Sundering.
I'm pretty sure Zak was saved. BEAST reminded me of some passages to suggest as such, and I actually emailed RAS asking if he could tell me where Zak's soul was. His response has me hopeful, and he said that Mielikki grants special favors to Drizzt after all, and Zak's heart never belonged to Lolth. He mentioned the Green Fields, and I asked for clarification because that's where the halflings are, and Mielikki's realm is either the Deep Wilds or the House of Nature, but anyway. I'm still wondering if he'll appear in that pocket-dimension, which I can never remember how to spell.
As for Zak currently being proud of Drizzt...that's a hard one. I'm sure he's watching his son, but he could be shaking his head. Or maybe not. Zak's own morals were constantly tried, and for "rebel" drow, the lines of right and wrong blur. For Drizzt, it has been black and white--until recently. I don't think the lines were so clear for Zak, though I do believe, as others have suggested, he pushed his principles onto Drizzt. He could not take be what he wanted to be, but he wanted that for his son.
Now, however, Drizzt is becoming more drow, but still has that Drizzt-iness. I personally do not like his current path, but from an analytical perspective (though BEAST you might be better suited for this!), he could be going through a trial period like Zak did, though obviously with different circumstances. I don't know if Zak would be proud of him, per se, but he might see it as a "growing period". It's kind of like the parent who still loves his child but has to take a step back and let that child make his own mistakes and learn from them.
As for Drizzt dying in the Sundering...whew, mixed emotions there for me. On the one hand, I would scream "no!" if he died, but on the other hand, his story has gone on a long time, and I get the feeling Bob might be getting tired of writing the Drizzt saga. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 04:32:19
quote:
That fact did little to dispel the guilt in Drizzt as he looked upon the corpse [of Masoj]. He had killed another drow, had taken the life of one of his own people. Was he trapped, as Zaknafein had been trapped for so very many years, in a cycle of violence that would know no end? (Home., P5:C29)
Somewhat off topic, but I feel the need to bring it up. This passage and Drizzt's refusal to kill drow in the early books is something that rubbed me the wrong way to the point where I found it offensive. This idea that it is somehow worse to kill members of your own race than that of others, it reeks of unfortunate implications.
I'm glad it's an aspect that was later dropped. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 02:37:44
You make some interesting points, but then in TFoN, Zak is shown meeting the Spider Mage, who tells him that he can best fight Lolth by pretending to serve her, and the wizard also tells him that there are others like them, and that Lolth's hold over the drow is not complete. Perhaps Zak stayed there in part to try to seek out others, and to battle the evil of his people by pretending to serve it. He served Malice by killing priestesses in order to undermine Lolth, an ironic turn that she never relaized. Drizzt himself never knew of this, as Zak apparently never told him about that meeting, only hinted at the purpose he felt he served by killing Lolth's clerics, in the scene where they reconciled after their battle over the supposed "death" of Ellifain (the elf girl). While they are talking, Zak tells Drizzt that he feels he is doing them a favor by sending them to meet their goddess, and that he is fighting back against the evil around him in the only way he can.
Regarding Zak going back to Malice again and again, the reason for that was simple enough- to refuse her would have meant death or worse. He'd already faced being turned into a drider once- I doubt he'd want to face that possibility again after having seen it first-hand. He knew better than to tempt fate a second time. The only reason he escaped the first time was because of the tiny golem that the Spider Mage sent to aid him. If not for Drizzt giving the Dagger to Lolth, Zak would no doubt have found himself executed when Malice found him alive and back in the house after his escape. She was ready to do just that when Matron Baenre herself stepped in and learned the truth about who the "pretty lady" was! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 01:51:19
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, by the time she would have gotten around to his Blooding, it was basically a moot point. Zak had already shed plenty of blood- and apparently willingly enough- that it no longer mattered.
But it was required before admission into the Academy, and she didn't fulfill the requirement.
And she knew full well that he was an irreverent, "different" kind of drow, but still kept him around for centuries. She was not a good matron mother. Lolth was bound to do her in.
quote:
And why did he stick around? I doubt the sex was THAT good.
He didn't just father Vierna with her. Over a century later, he also gave her Drizzt. Something kept him coming back to that well...
In addition to that, though, Malice employed him not only as her house weapons master, but also as her chief assassin. She gave him full authority to whack priestesses. This would allow him to take out his angst against the Way of Lolth, while also furthering Malice's own ambitions. Apparently, he couldn't pass that up.
quote:
Perhaps you have hit on something with your thoughts on whom he really wanted to kill, but that seems to be more of an issue of turning his own frustrations onto the one he felt responsible.
It was part of the trap that Zak felt, too, though. Malice had left it for him, and he fell right in:
quote:
Perhaps death was not so bad an alternative to the life he [Drizzt] would find among the drow, trapped within the evil framework of their dark society. Even Zaknafein, so strong and powerful and wise with age, had never been able to come to terms with his existence in Menzoberranzan; what chance did Drizzt have? (Homeland, P5:C26)
Zak felt trapped by the evil of Menzo. Something about that lifestyle had a hold on him, and would not let him go.
Malice's relentless seductiveness, tool of any good priestess, must've been part of it.
And the tempting opportunity to end priestesses' lives with impunity was another. Never mind that it was also aiding and abetting the vile, petty game of station amongst the matron mothers, and would likely entail lots of other, needless deaths. Zak had a chance to whack priestesses--much like the one he served--and he couldn't turn it down.
Drizzt contemplated all of this, and deemed Zak to have been trapped within a lie:
quote:
Where, indeed, could a drow elf go? "Worse to be trapped within a lie," he whispered absently. (Home., P5:C26)
Zak rationaled his killing priestesses for Malice as somehow actually serving a noble purpose, despite whatever gain Malice stood to receive from it. He was attempting to justify his cooperation with a corrupt system, to make himself feel better about it.
But Drizzt could see through all of that.
Drizzt thought again of the trap as entailing the killing of drow:
quote:
That fact did little to dispel the guilt in Drizzt as he looked upon the corpse [of Masoj]. He had killed another drow, had taken the life of one of his own people. Was he trapped, as Zaknafein had been trapped for so very many years, in a cycle of violence that would know no end? (Home., P5:C29)
Drizzt specifically considered working for Malice as the trap:
quote:
Zak could have left before, at any time during the centuries of his life, but when Drizzt had asked him why he had remained, the heat had drained from the weapon master's face. Were they indeed trapped in the life offered to them by Matron Malice and her evil cohorts? (Home., P5:C29)
And after Malice killed Zak, she immediately offered Drizzt the opportunity to become her new weapons master/assassin, and Drizzt knew that to be a temptation with a price. He knew that she was trying to lap the same trap for him that she had for Zak: quote:
"Weapon master?" Drizzt echoed. "Not likely."
Again Malice misunderstood. "I have seen you in battle," she argued. "Two wizards! You underestimate yourself."
Drizzt nearly laughed aloud at the irony of her words. She thought he would fail where Zaknafein had failed, would fall into her trap as the former weapon master had fallen, never to climb back out. (Home., P5:C29)
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 21:43:27
Well, by the time she would have gotten around to his Blooding, it was basically a moot point. Zak had already shed plenty of blood- and apparently willingly enough- that it no longer mattered. It does seem telling though that she had even that much feeling for him, and kept him around as long as she did, even knowing his blasphemous tendencies. And why did he stick around? I doubt the sex was THAT good.
He clearly DID have some feelings for her. I think it was her stripping his rank as patron that actually soured things between them, as it shattered his illusions that she cared as much about him as he thought he cared for her. Sometimes all it takes is having the rose-colored glasses being forcefully yanked off to change a person's affections into anger and resentment. That seems to have been the breaking point for him. As to why he never left the city- he pretty much told Drizzt point blank that he didn't believe he would survive. Perhaps he was more afraid to leave, and of what he might find beyond Menzo's walls? Fear of the unknown, combined with the fact that he was comfortable in his place, seems to have kept him there morethan anything. And he knew well enough that no onher matron was likely to be as forgiving as Malice! Perhaps you have hit on something with your thoughts on whom he really wanted to kill, but that seems to be more of an issue of turning his own frustrations onto the one he felt responsible. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 20:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by realmsrider
Here's kind of a strange question. If somehow Zak had been saved or brought back do you think he would be proud of what's Drizzt's become? I've been following Drizzt's life since the first printing of Crystal Shard and honestly I'm not not sure if like him the way I used to.
Well, we know from Passage to Dawn that Zak was proud of his son up to that point.
I'd say that he would be proud of Drizzt through Gauntlgrym, as well, because Drizzt remained a part of a band of goodly friends, even though, as I've said, he did have a tendency to run away, too often.
I'm also pretty sure that Zak would frown on Drizzt's recent choice of associates, just as many of us readers do.
But Zak wouldn't have much leg to stand on, in that regard. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 20:15:20
@Realmsrider. Drizzt will survive the Sundering. He's the Realms most popular cashco...character I mean. To me he was the best in The Crystal Shard as an ancillary bad ass character. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 16:53:22
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for whether Zak and Malice had any feelings for each other, there are several instances in "The Fires of Narbondel" that seem to indicate that they had something of the sort, at least. If not love, than at least the sort of affection of an owner and favorite pet. Zak apparently had once felt affection, perhaps even love for her.
"TFON" is a touchy subject. The events in the story have been considered canonical, but the personalities of the characters are inconsistent and problematic. (There are also some huge logical holes!) So I don't buy "TFON"'s portrayal of the dynamic between Malice and Zak during Drizzt's early life, at all.
In trying to piece together the sources, it seems that Zak must've met Malice before he went into the Academy, and they got along quite well. Maybe they were even in love/lust?
Malice planned on Blooding Zak, but then Matron Vartha suddenly died, thrusting Malice into the matron post, and interfering with any test for Zak.
It's possible that Malice had Vartha killed intentionally not only in order to take the matron position, but also in order to give herself enough duties so that she would have an excuse not to follow through with Zak's Blooding ritual. Thus began a long line of instances in which Malice shielded Zaknafein from accountability for his lack of full obedience to the Way of Lolth. And IMO, thus did Malice seal the eventual tragic fate of House Do'Urden, by harboring such a heretic in her midst.
At any rate, the next 10 years go by, with both Malice and Zak at the Academy, but by the time of their Ceremony of Graduation, things had soured between them. Apparently, Zak did not care for Malice anymore. That didn't matter to Malice, for she still had her way with him.
She was probably told by her instructors that she should no longer allow her chosen patron to be so irreverent and rebellious, and she probably tried to tamp down on his non-traditional ways, but we know how well that worked out!
Malice kept Zak close, but she didn't keep him as her patron, though. Nalfein, her elderboy, was fathered by Rizzen, a minor wizard. And Briza, her eldest daughter, was probably born to Uthegental del'Armgo, a competitor warrior.
Matron Malice would keep Zak around for centuries, though, occasionally, intermittently taking him back as patron and having children with him. The sex must've been great, because Zak felt trapped in House Do'Urden, and he refused to leave Menzo.
Nevertheless, Zak hated Malice, and carried out his hatred for her against other priestesses of Lolth, across Menzo. Every slice with his longswords, and every slash of his whip, was truly meant for his own matron. |
| realmsrider |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 07:30:52
Here's kind of a strange question. If somehow Zak had been saved or brought back do you think he would be proud of what's Drizzt's become? I've been following Drizzt's life since the first printing of Crystal Shard and honestly I'm not not sure if like him the way I used to. If anything I'm worried he may not survive the Sundering. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 06:29:48
Well, after going over Homeland again, I've found a few bits to support what has been said in favor of Zak's influence. Here's something telling:
"Would Zak ever find the answer to the dilemma of the youngesth Do'Urden? he wondered. Zak knew that he could not leave the house; Matron Malice was keeping a very close eye on him. She sensed his anguish over Drizzt, Zak knew, and she most definitely did not approve....
Zak thought back to the battles he and Malice had fought over Vierna, another child of common concern, centuries before. Vierna was a female, her fate sealed from the moment of her birth, and Zak could do nothing to halt the assault of the Spider Queen's overwhelming religion.
Did Malice fear that he might have better luck influencing the actions of a male child? Apparently the matron did, but even Zak was not so certain if her fears were justified; even he couldn't measure his influence over Drizzt."
From this, we can see that he has been at least ATTEMPTING to use his influence on Drizzt to subvert the teachings of Lolth. And here we have a passage that seems to implicate him further in teaching Drizzt's principles:
"Drizzt had told him what Malice and her evil daughters had done that day, and Zak was wise enough to understand their actions. Their "lesson" had nearly broken the boy, and had, perhaps, forever stolen from Drizzt the ideals he held so dear. Drizzt would find his morals and principles harder to cling to now that the pedestal of purity had been knocked out from under him."
And here:
"Drizzt possessed a spirit of innocence and lacked any maliciousness. Zak couldn't help but feel proud when he looked upon Drizzt. In all manners, the young drow held to the same principles- morals so unusual in Menzoberranzan- as Zak."
Who else could he have learned them from if not from Zak's own example and teaching? That much seems fairly obvious.
As for whether Zak and Malice had any feelings for each other, there are several instances in "The Fires of Narbondel" that seem to indicate that they had something of the sort, at least. If not love, than at least the sort of affection of an owner and favorite pet. Zak apparently had once felt affection, perhaps even love for her. Case in point:
"Zak thought back to the years when he had been patron of HOuse Do'Urden. For a time, he had thought that he loved Malice, and she him, until the day she had stripped him of his rank, and he had realized that all she cared about was station and the position of House Do'Urden in Lolth's Ladder. On occasion, Malice still beckoned Zak to her bedchamber, and he complied. A matron motehr's orders were not to be refused. And it was not unpleasant...."
And her own feelings:
"A shudder passed through her then at the thought of the judgement she had passed upon her weapons master. It was not something she had done with relish. Even as she had uttered the terrible words, her heart had cried out for her to stop. To be transformed into a drider was a fate she would hesitate to wish upon even her worst enemy.....
The prosperity of the house came before all else. She could not forget that. Still, the awful weight of her actions pressed upon her, dragging her to her knees. A moan escaped her lips. Most days she reveled in her power as matron mother of a noble house. But sometimes power was a terrible burden."
And here:
Malice smiled, but the expression felt hollow. Despite her imminent victory, her satisfaction was marred. Something was missing. In chagrin, she realized who it was. Yet she was better off without the unruly weapons master, she told herself. She would find others to replace him, in her bed and in her heart. It was foolish to waste her thought on Zaknafein...."
And here. Perhaps she DID have some feelings for him...?:
Whatever feelings for Zaknafein still burned in her heart, they were eclipsed at that moment by the dark blot of her outrage."
So, it would appear that the two did share whatever passes for love between drow in Menzoberranzan. And perhaps Drizzt might have picked up on some of this, or perhaps Zak even talked about his and Malice's past relationship with Drizzt during their time together while Drizzt was training under him. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 01:39:36
quote:
Originally posted by realmsrider
His difficulty forming relationships could stem from the ten years he spent in near isolation in Menzos tunnel network. There's no doubt he lost a part of himself. He did have a total breakdown in the Svirfneblin town as well. Elf PTSD?
His father, on some level, taught him to be an ethical person, while still giving lip service to the Way of Lolth. Zak taught Drizzt to be two-faced, to some degree.
That probably messed with Drizzt's head. He couldn't be true to himself in public, around most other people. He had to live a lie around others. (Although, COA has wisely pointed out that Drizzt didn't pull this off with 100% effectiveness.)
So instead, Drizzt poured all of his real self, honesty, and personality into his relationship with his mentor/father. Drizzt fully invested his real self into Zak.
And then Malice killed Zak. She took away Drizzt's best, and really only humanoid, friend.
I believe that those two things were the beginning of Drizzt's social problems. He took from his upbringing in Menzo the lessons that he couldn't allow himself to be totally open with other people, and anybody he did eventually get close to would just be taken away from him.
The exile was in some way a symptom of the problems.
But it also made them even worse, for Drizzt.
He didn't engage in any relationships with speaking souls, and certainly no close relationships with anyone whatsoever (beyond Guen), for a decade. Instead, he let the intensity of the Hunter serve as a substitute for his need for social connection. He self-medicated with battle-lust. His 10-year exile was like a long case of angry depression.
I'd say that the loss of Zak was the trauma of his PTSD. And his exile was a manifestation of that disorder.
And we've been getting telltale, relapse-like glimpses of it, ever since. |
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