| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bionic Man |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 16:50:53
Hey guys.
What do you think of the opinion many fantasy readers have that Realms (and other d&d related) book are "low-brow"? Personally, I do not subscribe to this way of thinking. I love the Realms, its my third favorite fantasy world (Ice and Fire, Middle-Earth)
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 19:39:32
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I've seen Realms fiction--Bob's, Paul's, and Richard's--get praise on websites that mainly review original works of fantasy.
Rarely do I put any kind of faith in reviews unless it's from a source that has consistently guided me towards interesting books. For every website, magazine, etc that says a book is great there are just as many that say it's trash. It's all about personal opinion.
*I seem to get great recommendations from goodreads.com  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 11:27:56
That's right, Entromancer. In fact, some who read and reviewed Paul's and Richard's books weren't familiar with the Realms at all until they sampled their works. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 00:32:04
I've seen Realms fiction--Bob's, Paul's, and Richard's--get praise on websites that mainly review original works of fantasy. |
| jornan |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 22:19:59
Whenever anyone scoffs at DnD realted fiction or fantasy in general, I simply ask them if they play WOW or Skyrim (or a similar game) or if they enjoyed the LotR movies and pretty much leave it at that. If presented in more familiar terms people have a tendency to be more open-minded about it. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 17:47:32
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Methinks that's probably something like a well-done Drizzt movie. Dismiss that and scoff if you will if you think that he doesn't adequately represent your view of the Realms. But then, that might make you sound an awful lot like those critics ^^^. 
So if one doesn't agree with you on this its shut up or be an idiot?
Not at all. I suggested no such thing.
I'm asking that people not dismiss the idea that a Drizzt movie could popularize the Realms to the masses, simply because there are many people here who dislike Drizzt. And you have to admit, there are an awful lot of people who roll their eyes at the mention of the name "Drizzt" just like others do at the name "D&D". It's a superficial, kneejerk reaction with a lot of folks.
That's what I was suggesting was wrong, as, I believe, was Thras.
quote:
And why the h... is it important that Realms novels should get praise from those that don't like them anyway? There's nothing wrong with being a niche.
The hope is that D&D & FR don't become an ever-shrinking niche. The desire is for it to hold stable, or grow bigger. It seems like everybody is expected to do more with less, these days, and times have been tough there at WOTC. I'd like things to be a little easier on them so that they can focus entirely on giving us what we want. Popular opinion has a bearing on that. I wish we could all be insular and remain unaffected by others' opinions, but stuff just doesn't work that way, anymore?
Did it, ever? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 12:59:38
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Methinks that's probably something like a well-done Drizzt movie. Dismiss that and scoff if you will if you think that he doesn't adequately represent your view of the Realms. But then, that might make you sound an awful lot like those critics ^^^.
So if one doesn't agree with you on this its shut up or be an idiot? Oh, sorry now I see the light .
And why the h... is it important that Realms novels should get praise from those that don't like them anyway? There's nothing wrong with being a niche. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 09:59:45
This is actually a phenomena that i have often encountered myself. People treating all fantasy works not just D@D as lowbrow.
I enjoy fantasy and see nothing wrong with it. There are many great authors in the Realms and no while it is not exactly Shakespeare , its not meant to be. The realms provide many entertaining choices for you to peruse ,especially after a hard day when you just want to relax and enjoy a nice adventure. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 03:51:01
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
IMHO - One of the worst things about critics is that by and large they come to a consensus on their collective opinions. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No argument there. But if you are going to share an opinion, please at least have it be your own.
= a form of "Groupthink", methinks. Fear of appearing to be independent-minded, because it might be misconstrued as being "out of touch" with their fellow critic peers, so they just conform. There arises a pressure to parrot others, in order to feel like part of the clique.
Grrr!
To overcome this in pop culture at large, D&D/FR have got to find a way to appeal to the masses in some way that overwhelms their contempt and rush to ridicule.
Methinks that's probably something like a well-done Drizzt movie. Dismiss that and scoff if you will if you think that he doesn't adequately represent your view of the Realms. But then, that might make you sound an awful lot like those critics ^^^.
I'm just saying that to turn the bad rap around, something like a Drizzt, a powerhouse of popularity, is needed, in order to be a front man for the rest of the property. You've got to give the masses something they think is cool to get them hooked.
Then sneakily segué them into other alternative paths. Use a Drizzt movie (or movies) as a "gateway drug".  |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 02:38:05
quote:
Originally posted by Bionic Man
Hey guys.
Well met Bionic Man.
What do you think of the opinion many fantasy readers have that Realms (and other d&d related) book are "low-brow"? Personally, I do not subscribe to this way of thinking. I love the Realms, its my third favorite fantasy world (Ice and Fire, Middle-Earth)
I was at the info booth of a book store asking about the release date of the latest Stephen King novel, and a fellow customer rolled his eyes and snorted. I gave him a sideways glance and asked ... "problem?" The way his face was scrunched up, I though maybe someone crop dusted him, and I was taking the fall for it.
"King is terrible?"
"Hmmm, why do you say that?"
"He never finishes his stories. They never have endings!"
I rattled off "The Stand, Dragon's Eye", and a few other titles. "Where did you get the idea that he never finished a story? I mean which story are you referring to?" I was actually curious.
But he was stumped. It became clear he had never read any. He had only read the cliff notes on “How to be a Literary Snob”
IMHO - One of the worst things about critics is that by and large they come to a consensus on their collective opinions. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No argument there. But if you are going to share an opinion, please at least have it be your own.
A great example of this is the guy on Youtube doing a review of all the Realms novels, and if you want a great drinking game do a shot every time he says he only skimmed a book. Lock your car keys away first though.
Currently I am on a Richard Lee Byers kick. So I have gotten everything R.L.B. has written for the Realms stacked on the nightstand, and Amazon is bringing me some of his non Realms works.
Is Richard Lee Byers Shakespeare?
Heck no. I enjoy R.L.B.
Hike Your Own Hike. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 03:00:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Very true. I'm still only halfway through my reading of Butcher's "The Dresden Files." I hear all this flutter about what happened in Changes and Ghost Story... but I've yet to actually find out exactly what happened in my own reading. 
Oh, wow, are you in for a ride when you get to those books... Suffice it to say, Changes lives up to its name. So very eagerly awaiting Cold Days...
I actually discovered the Dresden Files thru a novel review blog that Elaine used to maintain. I think there were only 7 or 8 books out, then... The series sounded good, and my friend Gene echoed what Elaine said, so I picked up the first book -- and after that one, I got the rest of the series as quickly as I could!
That same review by Elaine is largely what motivated my interest into looking into the series. But it's been slow going for me, because I've had so much more to read as well, and I can't ever seem to find enough time to devote to Harry's adventures.
quote:
Still haven't tried the Codex Alera, though... Maybe after I get done with Harry Potter and then re-reading the Lord of the Rings...
Strangely enough, I'm almost done with the current lot of "Codex Alera" books. I've been reading them via e-book format on the SagePhone, so it's been somewhat easier keeping up my reading of them. Good series, with solid characters, and a surprisingly pleasant departure from what I've come to expect from Butcher's fiction. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 23:33:55
I like the shared world. After reading Lord of the Rings, I hungered for more stories about Middle Earth, but nobody else, except for heirs, can write about Middle Earth. With a shared world, our descendants could still be reading about it, long after the original authors are gone. |
| Yoss |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 20:32:25
Trading in his sabers for spatulas! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 20:07:20
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
And Riven actually never became caretaker of a temple of Mask, but of a cheeseburger joint.
Served with a sneer. ;-)
"Do you want fries with that? Please, tell me you want fries with that. Go ahead; say it."  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 18:21:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Very true. I'm still only halfway through my reading of Butcher's "The Dresden Files." I hear all this flutter about what happened in Changes and Ghost Story... but I've yet to actually find out exactly what happened in my own reading.
Oh, wow, are you in for a ride when you get to those books... Suffice it to say, Changes lives up to its name. So very eagerly awaiting Cold Days...
I actually discovered the Dresden Files thru a novel review blog that Elaine used to maintain. I think there were only 7 or 8 books out, then... The series sounded good, and my friend Gene echoed what Elaine said, so I picked up the first book -- and after that one, I got the rest of the series as quickly as I could!
Still haven't tried the Codex Alera, though... Maybe after I get done with Harry Potter and then re-reading the Lord of the Rings... |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 18:04:52
I originally set my novel Downshadow almost entirely in a Waterdahvian strip club with side-trips to the cheesecake factory, but that would have been too lowbrow. (Or highbrow, depending on how you look at it.)
Cheers |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 14:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
And Riven actually never became caretaker of a temple of Mask, but of a cheeseburger joint.
Served with a sneer. ;-) |
| Yoss |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 14:08:42
And Riven actually never became caretaker of a temple of Mask, but of a cheeseburger joint. |
| PaulSKemp |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 13:45:33
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
"thigh light war"??? Oh dear. Autocorrect, how you foil me once again.
This was actually how I originally conceived of The Twilight War, with Rivalen's mad quest to slim down ultimately leading to Tamlin's embrace of pilates. A ban on high-fat foods swept across Sembia and, well, Cale and Company simply would not let such an affront stand.
The editors didn't dig this for some reason so we went in another direction. Shame, really. |
| Yoss |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 12:35:49
"thigh light war"??? Oh dear. Autocorrect, how you foil me once again. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 09:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
For example, I dove into Kemp's stuff partly becaue of the number of people listing Cale and the thigh light war as excellent reads, but the tipping point was really how much I enjoyed Deceived.
I've yet to read Deceived. The trade-paperback has only just released here, so it's been a long wait for me to catch up on the Sith-styled antics of Darth Malgus.
quote:
Ah, the famous SageTime?
Very true. I'm still only halfway through my reading of Butcher's "The Dresden Files." I hear all this flutter about what happened in Changes and Ghost Story... but I've yet to actually find out exactly what happened in my own reading. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 09:03:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Couldn't really care less what other people think about much, least of all what I'm reading and whether it fits their definition of intellectual enough, or simply cool enough.
I'm often curious about what other readers may think of a particular novel, but it in no way informs my judgment on whether I, as a reader, will enjoy it or not. In the same respect, my reading tastes rarely trend into the domains of the "latest hype-genre" and such, which is why I've tended away from most of the increased influx of steampunk fiction and "this and that" urban vampire/werewolf/magician stories that have been finding their way on the shelves of my local bookstore of late.
I'll determine when and where such fiction will appeal to me, in my own time.
There are a couple of people whose opinions I trust on fiction... They've oft steered me right in the past, so I know how their tastes and mine coincide.
Indeed. I often find the reading tastes of both myself and the Lady K cross, regularly, and I've got a colleague at work who I've only just recently discovered has similar interests in books as my own. We've been trading cool new reads between ourselves for the past several weeks.
quote:
I do generally avoid the current craze, but I will admit to having enjoyed a couple of steampunk books.
As do I.
What I was referring to above, was my intentional avoidance of the current rush of steampunk fiction that's flooding the shelves. I like to pick and choose, rather than just read this or that. I mean, I'll read them all eventually... but I like to take my time with "fads," and enjoy them for all their worth. |
| Yoss |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Couldn't really care less what other people think about much, least of all what I'm reading and whether it fits their definition of intellectual enough, or simply cool enough.
I'm often curious about what other readers may think of a particular novel, but it in no way informs my judgment on whether I, as a reader, will enjoy it or not. In the same respect, my reading tastes rarely trend into the domains of the "latest hype-genre" and such, which is why I've tended away from most of the increased influx of steampunk fiction and "this and that" urban vampire/werewolf/magician stories that have been finding their way on the shelves of my local bookstore of late.
I'll determine when and where such fiction will appeal to me, in my own time.
Yeah, I may have been exaggerating a little--I read through the entire (and I mean ENTIRE) thread stickied to the top of this forum on recommendations and which realms trilogies folks of this forum regard to be their favorites because pretty much everyone here is far more knowledgable about that stuff than I am. However, it's nowhere near the sole force informing my opinion on what to read. For example, I dove into Kemp's stuff partly becaue of the number of people listing Cale and the thigh light war as excellent reads, but the tipping point was really how much I enjoyed Deceived.
Ah, the famous SageTime? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 05:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Couldn't really care less what other people think about much, least of all what I'm reading and whether it fits their definition of intellectual enough, or simply cool enough.
I'm often curious about what other readers may think of a particular novel, but it in no way informs my judgment on whether I, as a reader, will enjoy it or not. In the same respect, my reading tastes rarely trend into the domains of the "latest hype-genre" and such, which is why I've tended away from most of the increased influx of steampunk fiction and "this and that" urban vampire/werewolf/magician stories that have been finding their way on the shelves of my local bookstore of late.
I'll determine when and where such fiction will appeal to me, in my own time.
There are a couple of people whose opinions I trust on fiction... They've oft steered me right in the past, so I know how their tastes and mine coincide.
I do generally avoid the current craze, but I will admit to having enjoyed a couple of steampunk books. |
| Captain Grafalcon |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:18:16
The greatest reason that I value all the Realms literature and authors is the responsability behind such work.Its like writing a thesis, the majority of the target population knows a lot about the subject(not too easy to please!)To write a FR novel, an author need years to gather Realmslore, a lot of research to make a history that respect FR structure (deities, classes, civilization,organizations geography),creativity and courage!I agree that not all the books are excellent,but even the most brilliant author can´t make all his books with the same quality. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:01:35
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Couldn't really care less what other people think about much, least of all what I'm reading and whether it fits their definition of intellectual enough, or simply cool enough.
I'm often curious about what other readers may think of a particular novel, but it in no way informs my judgment on whether I, as a reader, will enjoy it or not. In the same respect, my reading tastes rarely trend into the domains of the "latest hype-genre" and such, which is why I've tended away from most of the increased influx of steampunk fiction and "this and that" urban vampire/werewolf/magician stories that have been finding their way on the shelves of my local bookstore of late.
I'll determine when and where such fiction will appeal to me, in my own time. |
| Bionic Man |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 00:11:26
I'll tell you what, I think the Realms is one of the best and richest fantasy worlds you can get. Its got almost 30 years of history, and has been lovingly crafted by numerous authors. Its one of the few worlds that feels organic, and has an age to its history and lore. None of it feels "just made up" like a lot of other fantasy worlds. Maybe the books arent written to be grand literature, but they are good fantasy. Personally I find the Realms refreshing. Dark fantasy/Military fantasy has taken over in a big way, and are becoming derivitive. Dont get me wrong, I like that kind of stuff too, but the Realms provide something that is missing in the current fantasy genre. ADVENTURE. The Realms novels have always had that. In my opinion, thats what is missing in a lot of current fantasy (not all of course). Also, the Realms novels always came off as be driven by story, adventure, and action. Alot of fantasy is more driven by character development. Both are great, but sometimes character development books can just kind of feel like reading a biography. I know thats what took me out of Name Of The Wind. I got tired of hearing about every bit of trivia in this guys life. That being said, it was still a pretty good book. But anyway, I just think Realms novels get a bad rap. Im not saying they amongst the finest of world literature, but they scratch the fantasy itch adequately. And what a grand, rich, deep world!
As a side note, I think its unfortunate that hollywood has not yet turned its eye to the Realms. I think there are several series which would make excellent movies.
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| BEAST |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 21:40:05
quote:
Originally posted by Bionic Man
What do you think of the opinion many fantasy readers have that Realms (and other d&d related) book are "low-brow"? Personally, I do not subscribe to this way of thinking. I love the Realms, its my third favorite fantasy world (Ice and Fire, Middle-Earth)
First off, I think that the popular opinion of D&D is unfortunately still all-too-closely derived from the undeserved poor reputation that it got c. 1980 with the James Dallas Egbert tragedy, and magnified by the book and movies that sought to cheaply capitalize upon misconceptions of this IP. That crap still haunts D&D.
Even if the dark and ominous rap has been shed from D&D, the notion that there's something still kinda wonky about it never has been. You can see it in people's faces when you mention the name to them. Peter Jackson and his writing crew even used it as a punchline in some of their commentary on the "The Lord of the Rings" DVDs. And that's a dirty, rotten shame!
I think a lot of this "my fantasy is better than yours" mentality stems from deep-seated insecurity amongst people. Looking down on others (and their interests) helps some queasy folks to feel higher than and above those others, and therefore to feel better about themselves. And that's a sickness (having to derive your pleasure and sense of well-being at someone else's expense).
In general, I don't really get the perceived need to rank fantasy, anyway. I can certainly see objective comparison and contrast between different fantasy storylines. But I just never have felt the need to place one above the other.
I loved Anne McCaffrey's "Dragonriders of Pern" as a pre-teen, and then I grew to love Bob Salvatore's "Drizzt Saga" as a teen. Star Wars will always rock, no matter how fun it is to bag on the prequel movies. The classic comic book superheroes are classics for good reasons.
And that's all quite good enough for me. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 21:35:24
I wouldn't say Realms novels are inferior literature. In fact, some FR authors are way better than popular authors out there. Compare Richard, Paul, and Elaine's styles to say, Brent Weeks. Brent's style is way too pedestrian.
I love the Realms. And for me, that's all that matters. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 19:48:40
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Couldn't really care less what other people think about much, least of all what I'm reading and whether it fits their definition of intellectual enough, or simply cool enough.
That's pretty much my thought. There have been great Realms novels, and ones I've never wanted to read again -- even two that I wanted to throw across the room, when I was done reading them.
But that's not limited to Realms novels, or even fantasy novels. I love some, I hate some, some are meh.
Whether or not a book is part of a shared setting is immaterial. The story itself is the important part, not how many people can play in that playground. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 19:27:37
quote:
Originally posted by Bionic Man
Hey guys.
What do you think of the opinion many fantasy readers have that Realms (and other d&d related) book are "low-brow"? Personally, I do not subscribe to this way of thinking. I love the Realms, its my third favorite fantasy world (Ice and Fire, Middle-Earth)
I disagree. While a shared world like Toril might not have the continuity or depth of Tolkien's Middle Earth, that does not make it "low-brow." That definition I reserve for most of the "pop" fantasy, such as the Twilight novels. Forgotten Realms is a notch above that, in my opinion, hovering between the realm of Middle-Earth and the realm of pulp fiction.
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