| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jornan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 04:31:10
I just noticed this alarming trend. Many of the sequels that WotC are currently releasing started out as printed books and then the sequel is in ebook only format.
Downshadow --> Shadowbane
City of Ravens --> Prince of Ravens
Sword of the Gods --> Spinner of Lies
Mistshore --> Spider and Stone
Brimstone Angels --> Lesser Evils
Meanwhile, untried authors and character arcs are getting printed books:
Venom in her Veins
Rose of Sifaril
The Gilded Rune
I think it is a marketing ploy to get you hooked on the characters and then practically force you to buy into ebooks if you want to know the continueation/conclusion to a story.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 05:47:43
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I am reminded of the films Wall Street, and even more relevantly, OPM, for "Other People's Money". Big tycoons steamroll over individual businesses or even entire industries with hardly a thought for all the people being put out in the process. Unfortunately, only in the movies do we get our quaint little pull-out solutions to preserve the history and tradition of the old-school ways as we simultaneously herald in the new age. 
With the "obsolete" term was thrown out in the same discussion as books & E-readers I was thinking small screen "The Obsolete Man" - Twilight Zone. Burgess Merideth as the Librarian on trial for being obsolete. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 05:13:02
I am reminded of the films Wall Street, and even more relevantly, OPM, for "Other People's Money". Big tycoons steamroll over individual businesses or even entire industries with hardly a thought for all the people being put out in the process. Unfortunately, only in the movies do we get our quaint little pull-out solutions to preserve the history and tradition of the old-school ways as we simultaneously herald in the new age. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 04:00:55
I find eBooks so much more practical.
For a long time, I kept a house in Oz - even though I wasn't living there - simply so I could store all my books.
I've been making a concerted effort to get everything in eBook or PDF format now. Almost all of my D&D books are now in PDF - including all of the Dungeon magazines and most of the Dragon magazines - and I have many of my novels in .txt or PDF formats. (And, yes, most of these are not legal copies. As I own the originals, I don't really care.)
I do hope WotC and other publishers work out the nonsense prohibiting the sale of eBooks to other countries but I suspect that's going to take a long time.
Honestly, I prefer real books to the electronic format but I divide my time between three countries so real books aren't as practical as they once were. |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 03:33:02
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
It's not a plot or a plan. It's just cruddy marketing.
I am not buying nooks, kindles, or any other gadget that’s going to be made obsolete in the next upgrade.
*raises hand*
Can you print out the e-books? I am thinking maybe I can run off a copy, and take it to a book binder.
Just because it's being made electronic doesn't necessarily mean that you have to buy a portable gadget to read it. They can also release it as an e-doc that you can read on a computer. Store it on a personal website, and you can access it from any computer, sparing you from having to lug around a portable device with built-in, engineered obsolescence.
I think where they err is releasing electronic documents in proprietary formats that can only be read on specific devices. That's like having so many different connectors on AC charger cords for these devices, instead of going with something truly, well, Universal (USB).
Good points. Although I think installing a computer in reach of the toilet isn't going to fly 
The proprietary formats are another downer for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
It's not a plot or a plan. It's just cruddy marketing.
I am not buying nooks, kindles, or any other gadget that’s going to be made obsolete in the next upgrade.
*raises hand*
Can you print out the e-books? I am thinking maybe I can run off a copy, and take it to a book binder.
Can you point to one instance where one of these "gadgets" was made obsolete in any upgrade? I mean, yeah, Apple releases a new version of their devices a couple times a year. But all the older versions still work. Heck, Amazon is planning on releasing a new Kindle Fire pretty soon and I am 100% positive that my current version will still display the books that I bought with it.
I am not using a Kindle to look up the word obsolete, so bear with me a moment…
From Random House Dictionary of the English Language * licks a thumb and flips through pages*
Obsolescence…
Obsolescent…
Ahh, here we go
Obsolete: (1) No longer in general use; fallen into disuse. (2) of a discarded or outmoded type: out of date (3)(of a word or other linguistic unit) no longer in use, esp., out of use for at least a century. (4) effaced by wearing down or away (5) Biol imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals, as of the opposite sex or a related species. (6) to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better.; antiquate.
Let’s take the Kindle itself…
The Amazon Kindle is in it’s 4th generation vs books which are in their final version btw. Now, are you arguing that the Kindle Fire is going to be the final generation? More to the point of obsolescence; you would be hard pressed to find someone who would buy a 1st generation Kindle because it’s obsolete, as in no longer in general use. The first generation Kindle has been replaced by something newer and better. I took a gander on that new fangled Internet, and it seems the first generation Kindle isn’t even made anymore.
Amazon Kindle software was introduced for use on various devices. Including among others Blackberry.
I can assure you the former Crackberry has lost most of it’s market share. Rim (which makes Blackberry) has it’s back against the wall. If the moderators don’t object I am willing to bet a Billie Holiday album on vinyl that the company will have been bought up or gone out of business within the next three years. Even if they rolled a 20, and managed to stay afloat there are plenty of now obsolete devices they have put out.
I am going to stop at two, because the point is made.
I get the Kindle advantages. It’s compact. You can change the font size. It lights up. If I gave a hoot about trees that could be a plus too although as a side note you may be surprised what’s done to the environment to create that soon to be obsolete device that is so coveted. And by obsolete let’s be clear that you will be able to find first generation Kindles in landfills long after you and I shuffle of this mortal coil.
If I lose a 7-dollar paperback (or even a 50 dollar hardcover) on the beach, the hiking trail, on the train, in cab… well I just buy a new one - versus losing the latest $200 gadget
Not so long ago you could buy old Forgotten Realm modules and sourcebooks from a third party. The were called ESD’s or some such. The promise was you could download forever, and you could, right up to the moment they lost the license agreement, and went poof.
If the material is put out in both book and electronic form that’s great. I am not saying don’t do e-books. I am saying Wizards is silly to limit itself to e-books without publishing hard copy at any price. Real books are not buggy whips.
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| Caolin |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 00:44:39
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
It's not a plot or a plan. It's just cruddy marketing.
I am not buying nooks, kindles, or any other gadget that’s going to be made obsolete in the next upgrade.
*raises hand*
Can you print out the e-books? I am thinking maybe I can run off a copy, and take it to a book binder.
Can you point to one instance where one of these "gadgets" was made obsolete in any upgrade? I mean, yeah, Apple releases a new version of their devices a couple times a year. But all the older versions still work. Heck, Amazon is planning on releasing a new Kindle Fire pretty soon and I am 100% positive that my current version will still display the books that I bought with it. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 20:39:54
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
It's not a plot or a plan. It's just cruddy marketing.
I am not buying nooks, kindles, or any other gadget that’s going to be made obsolete in the next upgrade.
*raises hand*
Can you print out the e-books? I am thinking maybe I can run off a copy, and take it to a book binder.
Just because it's being made electronic doesn't necessarily mean that you have to buy a portable gadget to read it. They can also release it as an e-doc that you can read on a computer. Store it on a personal website, and you can access it from any computer, sparing you from having to lug around a portable device with built-in, engineered obsolescence.
I think where they err is releasing electronic documents in proprietary formats that can only be read on specific devices. That's like having so many different connectors on AC charger cords for these devices, instead of going with something truly, well, Universal (USB). |
| Yoss |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 10:00:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Ebooks do have a certain appeal. The last time I moved, aside from furniture, the heaviest and crappiest part of the moving was hauling my bins and boxes of books around. heh.
The first time I was moving on my own, I found a very large box, one that would hold most of my books (maybe 200, at the time). And so I put them all in that one box.
Yeah. Not my smartest maneuver. 
I was able to move the box by myself, but I learned my lesson.
When I was moving out of my 3rd floor apartment, I moved all of my books and such by myself... And ye dancing gods, it was a pain! One of the most irksome things about losing everything in the fire, a couple months later, was thinking of how difficult moving all that stuff had been! 
My dresser is the only thing I own that has proved to be more of a pain in the ass to move than boxes of books. And I often wonder, when I'm at work and I get sent on calls up to 3rd or 4th floor apartments, if I lived that many floors up, would I even own any furniture? Because I don't think I could be bothered to have more than a cheap coffee table and some lawn chairs..Nevermind major appliances. |
| Yoss |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 09:57:32
Eh, consider me lured. Having become all too much a creature of the promised instant gratification on the one-click buy button, and the availability of a bunch of older fr stuff I was slowly getting around to obtaining from various used book sources, I can't be too against the idea of ebooks when they're such a convience--for example right now, at work, had I forgotten to throw a second paperback in my backpack in the event it was a quiet enough night at work to make it through the first, i could just go online and grab something else. Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy buying a physical book every now and then, though. |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 21:19:32
It's not a plot or a plan. It's just cruddy marketing.
I am not buying nooks, kindles, or any other gadget that’s going to be made obsolete in the next upgrade.
*raises hand*
Can you print out the e-books? I am thinking maybe I can run off a copy, and take it to a book binder. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 00:36:25
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Ebooks do have a certain appeal. The last time I moved, aside from furniture, the heaviest and crappiest part of the moving was hauling my bins and boxes of books around. heh.
The first time I was moving on my own, I found a very large box, one that would hold most of my books (maybe 200, at the time). And so I put them all in that one box.
Yeah. Not my smartest maneuver.
I was able to move the box by myself, but I learned my lesson.
When I was moving out of my 3rd floor apartment, I moved all of my books and such by myself... And ye dancing gods, it was a pain! One of the most irksome things about losing everything in the fire, a couple months later, was thinking of how difficult moving all that stuff had been! |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 23:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Honestly, this is a losing battle. Print books are going to be relegated to a niche market like vinyl. Sure vinyl has seen a resurgence in popularity among "purists", but it still only represents a small portion of music sales. At some point in time you will see the price of eBooks drop below that of print and that will be the death knell mass printing of books...at least for non-educational books.
And to be quite frank I welcome that day. We will get reasonably priced eBooks and a lot less tress will have to be cut down.
Using vinyl is a poor comparison. In that example the quality of the product (sound) is taken into consideration. With the e-book trend the quality should give the printed side the advantage.
Also, MOST books offered through Barnes and Noble ARE slightly cheaper in the e-format.
I disagree. I have found the eBook reading experience to be FAR superior to reading a print novel. For one they take up less space. Secondly, it is very convenient to have all of my books in one spot. Thirdly, I can search any of the novels I have very quickly and easily. So if I want to find all references to Cyric in the first novel of the Avatar series, I can do that in a matter of seconds. Oh, and with my Kindle Fire, I can look up the definition to words that I might not understand AND I can search the web for places or characters I don't know about. There isn't anything you could do to make me go back to reading print novels anymore. Just like I don't carry around records or cds anymore. It's just too convenient to have all of my music on an iPod or some equivalent device.
I feel those who prefer to stay with print do so mainly for nostalgic reasons....hence my reference to vinyl, or they are just very averse to change. And ALL FR eBooks on Amazon sell at a cheaper price than their print variants. But either way, I stand by my statement. Print novels are on their way out as the main medium of literature. There is no amount of protesting or boycotting that will stop it.
I think it would be best if we all supported it so that we can encourage a drop in price for eBooks and to find ways to maximize the formats potential.
Ebooks do have a certain appeal. The last time I moved, aside from furniture, the heaviest and crappiest part of the moving was hauling my bins and boxes of books around. heh. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 22:58:22
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Honestly, this is a losing battle. Print books are going to be relegated to a niche market like vinyl. Sure vinyl has seen a resurgence in popularity among "purists", but it still only represents a small portion of music sales. At some point in time you will see the price of eBooks drop below that of print and that will be the death knell mass printing of books...at least for non-educational books.
And to be quite frank I welcome that day. We will get reasonably priced eBooks and a lot less tress will have to be cut down.
Using vinyl is a poor comparison. In that example the quality of the product (sound) is taken into consideration. With the e-book trend the quality should give the printed side the advantage.
Also, MOST books offered through Barnes and Noble ARE slightly cheaper in the e-format.
I disagree. I have found the eBook reading experience to be FAR superior to reading a print novel. For one they take up less space. Secondly, it is very convenient to have all of my books in one spot. Thirdly, I can search any of the novels I have very quickly and easily. So if I want to find all references to Cyric in the first novel of the Avatar series, I can do that in a matter of seconds. Oh, and with my Kindle Fire, I can look up the definition to words that I might not understand AND I can search the web for places or characters I don't know about. There isn't anything you could do to make me go back to reading print novels anymore. Just like I don't carry around records or cds anymore. It's just too convenient to have all of my music on an iPod or some equivalent device.
I feel those who prefer to stay with print do so mainly for nostalgic reasons....hence my reference to vinyl, or they are just very averse to change. And ALL FR eBooks on Amazon sell at a cheaper price than their print variants. But either way, I stand by my statement. Print novels are on their way out as the main medium of literature. There is no amount of protesting or boycotting that will stop it.
I think it would be best if we all supported it so that we can encourage a drop in price for eBooks and to find ways to maximize the formats potential. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:44:08
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
You know what you could do, and continue to get hardcopy novels? Become a RAS fan. His stuff sells like hotcakes, and WOTC is certainly gonna keep releasing his stuff in paper book form for some time to come! 
Yeah, but I want to read RAS novels and everyone else as a hard copy, not just RAS. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:36:12
quote:
Print books are going to be relegated to a niche market like vinyl.
Hopefully, I'll be dead and gone by that time. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 16:36:57
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Honestly, this is a losing battle. Print books are going to be relegated to a niche market like vinyl. Sure vinyl has seen a resurgence in popularity among "purists", but it still only represents a small portion of music sales. At some point in time you will see the price of eBooks drop below that of print and that will be the death knell mass printing of books...at least for non-educational books.
And to be quite frank I welcome that day. We will get reasonably priced eBooks and a lot less tress will have to be cut down.
Using vinyl is a poor comparison. In that example the quality of the product (sound) is taken into consideration. With the e-book trend the quality should give the printed side the advantage.
Also, MOST books offered through Barnes and Noble ARE slightly cheaper in the e-format. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:06:25
I prefer reading books in hardcover. But I have to tell you, the wife picked up an iPad this spring and I really love reading books on that thing. I'm not opposed to ebooks, but I certainly won't pay the same price as a hardcover costs. If I'm to shell out 20+ bucks, I want something tangible and if I'm paying the same price why pay for pixels when you can get the real thing. If ebooks were 7 to 15 dollars or somewhere in that range I'd buy them. Granted there are certain authors(Salvatore and Greenwood for instance) I read that I would only buy hardcover, but that's probably more of a personal choice there. I'd buy a ton of older Realms paperback books for 3 bucks a pop or so in ebook format if I saw them.
Personally, I think Wizards is out of their mind if they don't start tapping the Apple line like iPads for distribution. Apple is a titan in their market, and Wizards should use that. |
| D-brane |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 04:10:01
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
You know what you could do, and continue to get hardcopy novels? Become a RAS fan. His stuff sells like hotcakes, and WOTC is certainly gonna keep releasing his stuff in paper book form for some time to come!
I hope that you're joking. Because I'm not forcing myself to like Salvatore's fiction just so Wizards of the Coast gets the message that some of us readers still like printed hard-copies.
Not when other writers currently penning for the Forgotten Realms deserve the same treatment. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 03:13:40
I don't believe it's a matter of an intentional lure, so much as it is an industrial and corporate process of transition. It's a paradigm shift.
And as our international Realms fans have attested, it ain't the smoothest transition, either.
WOTC apparently has to make a case-by-case-basis decision as to which books will continue to be offered in hardcopy form, as well as e-book form, and some new books don't seem to be making that cut. The books probably have to have sufficient projected sales to warrant the infrastructure and budget for printing and logistics/distribution costs.
You know what you could do, and continue to get hardcopy novels? Become a RAS fan. His stuff sells like hotcakes, and WOTC is certainly gonna keep releasing his stuff in paper book form for some time to come! |
| Caolin |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 03:10:27
Honestly, this is a losing battle. Print books are going to be relegated to a niche market like vinyl. Sure vinyl has seen a resurgence in popularity among "purists", but it still only represents a small portion of music sales. At some point in time you will see the price of eBooks drop below that of print and that will be the death knell mass printing of books...at least for non-educational books.
And to be quite frank I welcome that day. We will get reasonably priced eBooks and a lot less tress will have to be cut down. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 01:11:08
Books only released electronically are books I don't get to read. :( Although it's getting hard to buy any books now that B&N seems to be the only non-christian seller of new books in my area. They have a horrible selection of Forgotten Realms books. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 16:14:26
@Hyset: Not being able to download ebooks outside the U.S. isn't WotC's fault or an oversight on their part. It's a question of distribution rights with their international distributors.
And believe me, WotC is working hard on trying to get that resolved so people can get their products. Don't give up hope!
Check this thread for more information: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16422&whichpage=2
It's frustrating for you, as a reader, and also for those of us who wrote the darn books and want you to be able to read them. 
Cheers |
| Hyset |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 10:42:55
As a person that ownes all the paper FR-novels published so far,
I indeed got me a kindle just to be able to read the ebook FR-novels.
And then I wanted to buy them, and could not, because
some of them are not sold outside of US?
Is WotC nuts???
If some books are not published in paper format, then at least
make all those ebooks available worldwide!!!
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| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 08:17:27
I just discovered a listing for Rise of the Zhentarim: Bound by Blood. That's got me seriously considering purchasing my first Realms e-book.
In terms of the scroll topic: I think we are being lured to e-books, but it's not like it's a conspiracy or evil.
WotC, to me, seems to be moving in the same direction as the rest of the publishing industry. I remember some years ago reading about how books may become viewed as collectors items in their own right as digital availability of books grew, and I think we're seeing WotC explore that avenue with their 1st Edition D&D reprints and their survey about interest in 3.5E reprints.
I think this shows that print books aren't going to die anytime soon. There will just be less of them. As long as there is a market (and so money to be made), WotC will chase it.
E-books and fancy reprints: the future is now. |
| jornan |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 03:45:48
I know from a business perspective that it makes way more sense to publish electronically. I get that, but I can still be saddened by the slow death of the printed book. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 02:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
Sage, I'm also not against ebooks completely and agree they are a great resource for those so inclined and those people overseas. I'm only against ebook exclusivity.
Most publishing companies run their product lines based on the bottom-profitable-line.
If indications show a fundamental shift toward e-publishing in the industry that produces greater profits for the company, over that of older methods of print and distribution, then why would the company still maintain that older production method -- and potentially at a loss -- in addition to it's new method of money-making? |
| jornan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 22:44:48
I think everyone is getting caught up in the semantics of the term lured. What I'm saying is I think there is a bit more behind the idea of sequels to printed books coming out only in ebook format.
I also know that no one is forcing me to buy an ebook, but as I stated "if you want to read the continuation of a story arc" you have to purchase an ebook to do so and I think WotC is using this as a way to get the people like me, who have read every book as they have come out, onto the ebook band wagon. Try it, you might like it sort of thing.
Sage, I'm also not against ebooks completely and agree they are a great resource for those so inclined and those people overseas. I'm only against ebook exclusivity.
Its like a drug dealer giving your first hit for free, only your first hit is printed format and second is ebook exclusive.
I also know that WotC might not have been planning some of these sequels as ebook exclusive, but I'm saying they are using it as an opportunity to force the readers hand into buying into ebooks. How many Polls and Petitions have you seen for a sequel to Jack Ravenwild? I have seen many over the years and I think it is a case of "fine we will give you the sequel, but you have to buy into our new cheaper for us but not the consumer format".
I also don't think WotC are evil or anything stupid like that. I simply think there is a degree of marketing involved in these decisions.
This would be like the sixth book in A Song of Ice and Fire all of a sudden being ebook exclusive. You know people who invested all the time into the series are going to read the book the only way that they can. ebook.
Erin, great to hear Lesser evils will be printed as well.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:36:18
I can assure you this was NOT the plan when I wrote Downshadow. AFAIK, WotC hadn't even DREAMED of ebook-only releases then. When I wrote Shadowbane, it was decided during the process that it would be an e-book only release.
And yes, I'm hoping WotC releases a Shadowbane omnibus eventually, for the sake of my print-only readers and my own (physical) bookshelf.
Cheers |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:39:05
[/quote]
What's an ebook?
[/quote]
Good one.
seriously however I think saying lured is a bit much but certainly it seems that people are being pushed into buying ebooks by constraining thier choice. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:34:56
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
I think it is a marketing ploy to get you hooked on the characters and then practically force you to buy into ebooks if you want to know the continueation/conclusion to a story.
What's an ebook?
|
| phranctoast |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 18:25:29
The irony of all this is, I stayed away from E-readers previously as the WOTC books I liked to read were not available yet. Now it's the exact opposite. |
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