| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bravesteel |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 03:33:09
Hi all,
As I've said in my introductory thread I'm reading the first threee Drizzt Do'Urden books right now (currently on Sojourn in Dead Orc Pass). My question is about Drow and how they have certain innate magical abilities. Is Drizzt able to levitate due to him being of noble blood or is it something that all Drow can have/learn?
Bravesteel |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 27 Apr 2023 : 11:50:31
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
If you go to Ed's 2E Drow of the Underdark it suggests that not every drow's control of their innate powers is identical and can vary based on a number of factors, so Drizzt and Liriel don't have to have the same experience, though it also says that the spell-like abilities "fade with time on the surface world." Again, given individual differences, this doesn't necessarily have to happen consistently for each drow.
Well, that certainly is a convenient solution! It's really like Ed to to do everything to make things simple for the DM to tell the story they want! |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 26 Apr 2023 : 21:33:07
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I understand that the status of levitation is weird, due to some seemingly random changes between editions. But my question is specifically about faerie fire and darkness in second edition, as Salvatore's and Cunningham's novels, both published in that era, seem to disagree on these. It seems particularly strange, since in Sojourn, Salvatore insists on Drizzt progressively losing his levitation, so he was aware that the rules stated that drow powers faded on the surface. But for some reason, he didn't make it be the case for faerie fire and darkness. On the other hand, Liriel loses all of her powers at once when she loses the Windwalker amulet, including darkness and faerie fire. That's why I would like to know what second edition rules stated, so I have a better idea on how the difference of effect can be explained. If both powers are supposed to survive the lack of faezress on the surface, it's easy to say that Liriel's rune did something that changed the status of those two powers for herself. But if it's Salvatore's book that is in disagreement with 2E rules, and all other drows living on the surface lose their powers, it's harder to justify why that would not be the case for Drizzt. So has anyone put forth a theory that would explain the apparent discrepancy, where faerie fire and darkness are maintained for Drizzt, but lost to Liriel?
Honestly, like Byers noted above, the rules were shifting under their feet as they wrote, but IMO Salvatore tried very hard to be consistent in the beginning and then almost completely gave up on trying. If you go to Ed's 2E Drow of the Underdark it suggests that not every drow's control of their innate powers is identical and can vary based on a number of factors, so Drizzt and Liriel don't have to have the same experience, though it also says that the spell-like abilities "fade with time on the surface world." Again, given individual differences, this doesn't necessarily have to happen consistently for each drow. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Apr 2023 : 09:24:56
Just my take based upon various things but it seems that the drow magic (according to the liriel baenre arc) is derived from faerzress, in particular from areas high in concentration of this "radiation".
Now we have had a concept of nodes introduced in 3e, which allowed for pockets of fields that people and items could become attuned to and provided additional abilities.
We also have had a concept of Weave Anchors introduced which allows people to access the weave and gain access to spells which is not disimilar to the concept of nodes, but on a much larger scale that encompasses much of the planet, but with multiple nodes linked to provide a blanket of sorts.
Now if we imagine faerzress as being a set of nodes that the drow have crowded around, because they were denied access to the much smaller weave at the time which likely did not extend underground.
All drow get a basic set of abilities due to their exposure and attunement (from birth). Drow nobles get additional abilities due to various rituals they perform (this benefit is likely unknown to the participants as it has become part of cultural and religious beliefs, etc).
Drow that go to the surface begin to lose these abilities as they are expended and they cannot recoup them from a node. However, if the drow were to attune themselves in the same manner to the weave, they would likely be able to use those abilities again because they were probably all originally derived from the weave anyway and then replicated and preserved in faerzress nodes when the drow were driven underground (we know that elves originally had more magical abilities and a stronger connection to the weave in the past, but this has been lost over time - according to some passages in Cormanthyr empire of elves).
Items work in the same way as the drow.
Further to the idea of faerzress being nodes, is the story arc of the demon weave which could be explained by Lolth trying to create new faerzress nodes and link them all together into her own weave / web of nodes.
Liriel used a magic artefact to instantly attune herself powerfully to the normal weave and store all her spells and abilities within a Weave Anchor, and this would undoubtedly allow all other drow to access those same abilities when away from faerzress and within the weave. Prior to that it would likely have required years of dedication and experimentation for individuals to find ways to attune themselves to the weave so they could continue to use their own abilities.
Just a theory though |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 26 Apr 2023 : 04:21:58
I understand that the status of levitation is weird, due to some seemingly random changes between editions. But my question is specifically about faerie fire and darkness in second edition, as Salvatore's and Cunningham's novels, both published in that era, seem to disagree on these. It seems particularly strange, since in Sojourn, Salvatore insists on Drizzt progressively losing his levitation, so he was aware that the rules stated that drow powers faded on the surface. But for some reason, he didn't make it be the case for faerie fire and darkness. On the other hand, Liriel loses all of her powers at once when she loses the Windwalker amulet, including darkness and faerie fire. That's why I would like to know what second edition rules stated, so I have a better idea on how the difference of effect can be explained. If both powers are supposed to survive the lack of faezress on the surface, it's easy to say that Liriel's rune did something that changed the status of those two powers for herself. But if it's Salvatore's book that is in disagreement with 2E rules, and all other drows living on the surface lose their powers, it's harder to justify why that would not be the case for Drizzt. So has anyone put forth a theory that would explain the apparent discrepancy, where faerie fire and darkness are maintained for Drizzt, but lost to Liriel? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 25 Apr 2023 : 21:56:46
In 1st and 2nd edition it was not from any emblem or insignia, all these powers were innate and weakened over time once you got to the surface. Third kept some innate, but made levitation come from their house insignia. As noted by authors Byers and Cunningham, these changes caused some havoc with their writing. By fifth edition, drow have some innate abilities that no longer fade on the surface, but as in 3rd, levitation isn't among them. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 25 Apr 2023 : 10:33:38
This seems like a good place to post this.
Regarding levitation, my understanding is that this one use per day was one of the most common powers a house emblem could have. So in Sojourn, Drizzt loses that power progressively as his emblem weakens due to the light of the sun and lack of faezress. However, I’ve just finished Daughter of the Drow, and I was surprised by the other powers. Long after he’s lost all of his drow weapons, Drizzt is still using his faerie fire and sphere of darkness. But as soon as Liriel loses the Windwalker amulet that was maintaining her innate drow powers, the days of sunlight catch up with her, and she loses all of her drow powers, including faerie fire and sphere of darkness. The novel even insists on her getting them back when she retrieves the amulet. So what was the status of these powers in second edition? Could drow use them on the surface or not? |
| Shere Khan |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 17:27:50
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Indeed... Oh, and another one. quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
levitation, detect magic and know alignment available at 5 level.
"Underdark" did pretty much the same via Highborn Drow feat, only replacing know alignment with detect good (why? the token piece of disney stupidity?).
...of course, detect poison would make far more sense than either anyway. Yes, 1/day (3/day for Magic In the Blood). 
Agreed. Nevertheless at the time the Drow were originally created by Gygax for 1e in his GDQ series, the detect poison spell had yet to be added to the game. Had it existed at the time, it might well have been added to the Drow repertoire.
Regarding the levitation power mentioned earlier in the thread, originally innate Drow powers were classified into three categories, powers possessed by all Drow, powers possessed by all female Drow, and powers possessed by all Drow of 4th level and above. The ability to levitate 1/day fell into the last category. In 1e AD&D, Drow did not lose these innate magical abilities during extended stays on the surface, only their weapons, armor, cloaks and sleep poison decayed/rotted upon exposure to -direct- sunlight.
The female-only powers were converted to priest/priestess-only powers in the more politically correct 2e. The greater height and physical strength of female drow was reduced to fluff, and slowly de-emphasized to the point where they were increasingly, but not always, ignored. Female warriors, formerly more prominent than male warriors, became less prominent in 2e and later, particularly in the Realms where Menzoberranzan was the example Drow city, Melee Magthere was a male-only institution with no female-equivalent, and all of the most renowned and highest level warriors in the city were male. Contrast that with the original Drow city of Erelhei Cinlu of Gygax's Vault of the Drow where the highest level warriors were female and the female fighting society was stronger and better equipped than the male fighting society.
Greenwood and Salvatore greatly expanded the use of levitation and other powers, at least in the Underdark, by Drow Nobles in 2e to virtually unlimited use. Greenwood's description of this expanded usage was somewhat vague in the 2e version of Drow of the Underdark, and if I recall correctly, Salvatore explained this nearly unlimited usage of the innate powers in Homeland by tying it in with the enchanted House Insignias all nobles wore. As a game balancing mechanism, innate Drow powers in 2e were said to slowly fade during an extended stay on the surface, ie. player characters were no longer allowed to have them.
What happened in 3e and later has already been ably covered by people better connected to events than I, so I will stop here. Finally I'd like to add that I can readily understand how authors might care less and less about rules details as those rules continually shift, first in one direction, than another, for what often appear to be rather arbitrary reasons, creating inconsistencies with previous novels. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 16:29:57
Indeed... Oh, and another one. quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
levitation, detect magic and know alignment available at 5 level.
"Underdark" did pretty much the same via Highborn Drow feat, only replacing know alignment with detect good (why? the token piece of disney stupidity?).
...of course, detect poison would make far more sense than either anyway. Yes, 1/day (3/day for Magic In the Blood). |
| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 04:44:45
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
It all makes you wonder how drow magic will work in the brave new world of D&D Next.
I hear that drow now sparkle when they use their innate magic.
Why not? They carry swords with names like "Twinkle" when they engage in melee. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 00:54:28
Well there was always core D&D Drow and FR Drow so indeed as to When/if Drow innate powers worked on the surface. I do know "fair" (surface based) elves innate powers worked in the underdaerk. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 05:36:50
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
It all makes you wonder how drow magic will work in the brave new world of D&D Next.
I hear that drow now sparkle when they use their innate magic.
 |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 04:56:14
Inspired by Meyer's vampires? |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:38:06
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
It all makes you wonder how drow magic will work in the brave new world of D&D Next.
I hear that drow now sparkle when they use their innate magic. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 19:38:39
It all makes you wonder how drow magic will work in the brave new world of D&D Next. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 18:38:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will. Will/should Liriel be mentioned at all in the Demon Weave coming out later this year? What she did was a big deal and shouldn't simply be glossed over.
I never read "Starlight & Shadows". (I know; I know--bad BEAST!  )
But could someone explain how the Windwalker took Liriel's temporary personal Menzo place magic, and applied it to all drow on the surface of Toril? I thought it only brought temporary magic along with her, alone; and carving a rune on the Yggdrasil's Child tree would make that personal magic permanent--but it would still only be a personal, individual effect. What else extra did she do to cause it to benefit all drow?
Has anyone ever analyzed and researched this particular subject, tracking all the official lore that confirmed and expanded upon this, after the publication of Windwalker? It's very confusing to me. It sounds like people treat the magical item as a sort of deus ex machina, attributing to it whatever power they see fit.
I know that Underdark (3.5E) said that drow began to use less drowcraft in the forging/enchanting of their weapons, around the time that they began venturing to the surface in larger numbers. I don't think it discussed their racial spell-like abilities ("innate magic"), and whether they had recently been modified.
The idea was that Liriel only intended to retain her innate abilities, not provide for every drow... But while the book was being written, 3E came out and said drow didn't lose their abilities on the surface, even though 2E said they did. So Elaine tweaked her idea so that Liriel's quest had a more far-reaching effect than what was intended.
The novel version was adapting to and trying to explain a rules change.
When I wrote the first two books in the Starlight & Shadows trilogy, drow magic DID NOT WORK ON THE SURRFACE. Period. So the central plot point of these two books was Liriel's attempt to explore the surface on her own terms, with her innate drow abilities and learned spells intact. When I was writing the third book, I found out that the rules had changed, effectively cutting the legs out from under the first two books.
So I had three choices: 1) Ignore the new rules and make the trilogy internally consistent, 2) ignore the first two books and write the third according to the new rules, or 3) write a explanation for the new rules into book 3. I chose the third option because it was the only one that made sense to me.
If I were following my own inclinations, I would never had written such a sweeping change into a novel. But since the change had already happened, I had to find a way to deal with it. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 14:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will.
Given how long he retained darkness...
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In some prior editions loss of power because visit to surface did not exist.
Or was gradual.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But could someone explain how the Windwalker took Liriel's temporary personal Menzo place magic, and applied it to all drow on the surface of Toril? I thought it only brought temporary magic along with her, alone; and carving a rune on the Yggdrasil's Child tree would make that personal magic permanent--but it would still only be a personal, individual effect.
[...] It sounds like people treat the magical item as a sort of deus ex machina, attributing to it whatever power they see fit.
It was poking a tweaked part of the Weave with one artefact (which was spent in process - also not the normal outcome) into another, slightly interplanar artefact.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The novel version was adapting to and trying to explain a rules change.
And very fitting in-universe.
She also thought it would only be a personal effect. And ooops, three different goddesses, for different reasons, didn't.
I mean, it was attached badly enough that working across the edge counted as wild magic unless precautions were taken, and Mystra uses any opportunity to repair the Weave, whether the particular piece was broken by hubris of Karsus or hissyfits of elves, right?..  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 21:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by BEAST
The idea was that Liriel only intended to retain her innate abilities, not provide for every drow... But while the book was being written, 3E came out and said drow didn't lose their abilities on the surface, even though 2E said they did. So Elaine tweaked her idea so that Liriel's quest had a more far-reaching effect than what was intended.
The novel version was adapting to and trying to explain a rules change.
So Elaine espoused this idea herself, in the novel? Cool.
I was just trying to determine if it was ever actually said in writing, and not just an interweb meme. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 21:16:38
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will. Will/should Liriel be mentioned at all in the Demon Weave coming out later this year? What she did was a big deal and shouldn't simply be glossed over.
I never read "Starlight & Shadows". (I know; I know--bad BEAST! )
But could someone explain how the Windwalker took Liriel's temporary personal Menzo place magic, and applied it to all drow on the surface of Toril? I thought it only brought temporary magic along with her, alone; and carving a rune on the Yggdrasil's Child tree would make that personal magic permanent--but it would still only be a personal, individual effect. What else extra did she do to cause it to benefit all drow?
Has anyone ever analyzed and researched this particular subject, tracking all the official lore that confirmed and expanded upon this, after the publication of Windwalker? It's very confusing to me. It sounds like people treat the magical item as a sort of deus ex machina, attributing to it whatever power they see fit.
I know that Underdark (3.5E) said that drow began to use less drowcraft in the forging/enchanting of their weapons, around the time that they began venturing to the surface in larger numbers. I don't think it discussed their racial spell-like abilities ("innate magic"), and whether they had recently been modified.
The idea was that Liriel only intended to retain her innate abilities, not provide for every drow... But while the book was being written, 3E came out and said drow didn't lose their abilities on the surface, even though 2E said they did. So Elaine tweaked her idea so that Liriel's quest had a more far-reaching effect than what was intended.
The novel version was adapting to and trying to explain a rules change. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 21:04:21
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will. Will/should Liriel be mentioned at all in the Demon Weave coming out later this year? What she did was a big deal and shouldn't simply be glossed over.
I never read "Starlight & Shadows". (I know; I know--bad BEAST! )
But could someone explain how the Windwalker took Liriel's temporary personal Menzo place magic, and applied it to all drow on the surface of Toril? I thought it only brought temporary magic along with her, alone; and carving a rune on the Yggdrasil's Child tree would make that personal magic permanent--but it would still only be a personal, individual effect. What else extra did she do to cause it to benefit all drow?
Has anyone ever analyzed and researched this particular subject, tracking all the official lore that confirmed and expanded upon this, after the publication of Windwalker? It's very confusing to me. It sounds like people treat the magical item as a sort of deus ex machina, attributing to it whatever power they see fit.
I know that Underdark (3.5E) said that drow began to use less drowcraft in the forging/enchanting of their weapons, around the time that they began venturing to the surface in larger numbers. I don't think it discussed their racial spell-like abilities ("innate magic"), and whether they had recently been modified. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 18:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will. Will/should Liriel be mentioned at all in the Demon Weave coming out later this year? What she did was a big deal and shouldn't simply be glossed over.
In some prior editions loss of power because visit to surface did not exist. TSR and/or WotC game designers or authors changed things. Play the edition or canon you want. |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 18:05:15
Since Liriel brought drow magic to the surface will Drizzt regain his ability to levitate at will. Will/should Liriel be mentioned at all in the Demon Weave coming out later this year? What she did was a big deal and shouldn't simply be glossed over. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 14:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The direct answer to your question, at one time all Drow had innate magical ability to levitate, a latter edition only allowed noble Drow the innate ability to levitate.
That depends on the interpretation -- is it a bloodline trait or simply extra training usually conducted by nobles because most folk can't afford to waste time on it? In "Underdark" feat Highborn Drow more suggests the former, though not decisively. Then again, "Underdark" has some plainly weird stuff, like Drowcraft item property...
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
Wasn't the ability to levitate correlated to the house insignia or piwafwi and when those deteriorated from the surface sun...then that ability was lost. Globe of Darkness and Faeire fire are innate however. That is how I recall it at least.
Levitation was innate, but limited - but obviously too useful to miss, thus frequently doubled by items.
Otherwise much the same: levitation, detect magic and know alignment available at 5 level. "Underdark" did pretty much the same via Highborn Drow feat, only replacing know alignment with detect good (why? the token piece of disney stupidity?).
Spell-like abilities did deteriorate on surface, though not nearly as fast as radiation quasimagic items get destroyed. Hence "Starlight and Shadows". |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 22:40:19
It's confusing to the novelists, too, Bravesteel, and I suspect that's why many of us start out trying to stay VERY true to the minutiae of the rulebooks and sourcebooks but then become somewhat looser in our approach. It's tremendously important to stay true to the essential nature of the setting. But why obsess over fiddly little details in something like the magic system if the next edition is just going to come along in a couple years, change the spell descriptions, and put your book out of synch with current information anyway? You might as well have the lightning bolt your villain tosses behave as you would like for it to behave. |
| Bravesteel |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 20:54:19
Lots of information, thanks! It can be confusing when novels are written to fit a specific edition instead of just fitting the setting itself. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:52:42
I don't believe that these powers (and specifically the power to levitate) were ever truly innate--I think they were ingested. I think these powers are derived from an Underdark diet laced with radioactive minerals from magical faezress stone deposits. Perhaps the concentration of these minerals in one's diet varies with economic class: the wealthier you are, the more stuff you spice up; while the poorer you are, the less you can stomach.
[EDIT] In 1E & 2E, all drow[/EDIT] of a certain level were said to be able to levitate an average of once per day.
Nobles could do it more often.
And some house emblems would allow some nobles to do it at will, as often as they liked. The House Do'Urden emblem was such an insignia.
But Drizzt lost his house insignia to the Zaknafein Zin-Carla in Exile, and at the beginning of Sojourn he spent months on the surface during which his insignia-less levitation ability progressively diminished. Methinks he stopped eating radioactive 'shrooms and developed a taste for meat and taters!
EDIT: On second thought, it might be like with--pardon the crassness of the analogy--crack babies. The mothers pass on chemicals through their blood to their in utero offspring, who are eventually born with some measure of faezress radioactive minerals in their own blood, and maybe even a bit of dependency. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:43:16
All I can say is that I have all Drow being able to levitate...
otherwise, my 5 Drow Wizards couldn't have been levitating in that cave and unleased a regular and a quickened Magic Missile spell each at King Mort of Tethyamar when he sought to "teach the drow a lesson!"
His Brooch of Shielding was smoking, and he still felt like a pin cushion!
Yes, the stumpy son of an axe was still alive after that. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 00:40:54
-Personally, I don't see why these details needed to change. Can any authors/designers who are/were privy to the inner workings of WotC explain the rationale why it was changed? |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 20:08:41
These are details that WotC in its wisdom has seen fit to fiddle with over the years. When I started writing Dissolution, the sourcebooks said levitation and faerie fire were innate drow powers, period, and they were all over the first draft of my novel. Every lowly dark-elf schlemiel on the streets of Menzo had them and used them. I was mildly vexed to be told that I had to change what I'd written because the game designers were changing those bits of the drow concept. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 19:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
Wasn't the ability to levitate correlated to the house insignia or piwafwi...
-House Insignia. |
| jornan |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 18:38:52
Wasn't the ability to levitate correlated to the house insignia or piwafwi and when those deteriorated from the surface sun...then that ability was lost. Globe of Darkness and Faeire fire are innate however. That is how I recall it at least. |
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