| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| varyar |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 13:23:14
I was wondering - have Dragonbait's kin ever appeared in any novels outside of the ones written by Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak? They've been on Toril for a while now, so one or two besides our favorite reptilian paladin might have left the Lost Vale. Any sightings of the sauriels in novel form? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
True. Hence, the 'before.'
That's why I prefer him to some other villains, who act first prior to thinking carefully of the possible options.
In a world awash with big fishes, it's preposterous to "always" display your might. You'd just make yourself an easy target.
-Generally speaking, I think the real movers and shakers you need to worry about follow that mantra. Sememmon, and Khelben, for example. So many times, the guys who get all showy about their might are really just compensating for the lack of true control they know they don't possess. Maalthiir of Hilltop and Lord Geildarr Ithym of Llorkh immediately come to mind- midlevel magicians who are quick to show off their power, because if it came to a prolonged kind of battle, they'd lose.
I won't contradict myself, so I say this more as an exception than the rule: sometimes, displaying your might, true or not, can save your ass.
In The Masked Witches, one wizard made an amazing display of her powers (mostly bluff) to scare off a bunch of formidable spellcasters. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
True. Hence, the 'before.'
That's why I prefer him to some other villains, who act first prior to thinking carefully of the possible options.
In a world awash with big fishes, it's preposterous to "always" display your might. You'd just make yourself an easy target.
-Generally speaking, I think the real movers and shakers you need to worry about follow that mantra. Sememmon, and Khelben, for example. So many times, the guys who get all showy about their might are really just compensating for the lack of true control they know they don't possess. Maalthiir of Hilltop and Lord Geildarr Ithym of Llorkh immediately come to mind- midlevel magicians who are quick to show off their power, because if it came to a prolonged kind of battle, they'd lose. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:14:22
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.
Because people can be bribed and manipulated. It's a human weakness. And the Shadovar nearly always manage to exploit that particular weakness. Manipulation comes before force. That has always been Telamont's (Dethud's, and Melegaunt's) mantra. And that's how they got Sembia.
-And, when that doesn't work, brute magical force does. With relative ease, Telamont charmed/dominated a mighty Blue Dragon, the Suzerain of the Anauroch- and received the aid of it's underlings and servitors as a result. Similar applications on targeted individuals who are resistant to bribery nets a similar end.
True. Hence, the 'before.'
That's why I prefer him to some other villains, who act first prior to thinking carefully of the possible options.
In a world awash with big fishes, it's preposterous to "always" display your might. You'd just make yourself an easy target. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:44:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.
Because people can be bribed and manipulated. It's a human weakness. And the Shadovar nearly always manage to exploit that particular weakness. Manipulation comes before force. That has always been Telamont's (Dethud's, and Melegaunt's) mantra. And that's how they got Sembia.
-And, when that doesn't work, brute magical force does. With relative ease, Telamont charmed/dominated a mighty Blue Dragon, the Suzerain of the Anauroch- and received the aid of it's underlings and servitors as a result. Similar applications on targeted individuals who are resistant to bribery nets a similar end. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.
Because people can be bribed and manipulated. It's a human weakness. And the Shadovar nearly always manage to exploit that particular weakness. Manipulation comes before force. That has always been Telamont's (Dethud's, and Melegaunt's) mantra. And that's how they got Sembia.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well in the Neverwinter novels one notices a lot of new recruits in the ranks of the Shadovar. Including a certain highly effective assassin and they seem to to supplementing their forces with shadow wraiths and other undead. From this one can concur that Shade enclave has indeed taken significant losses and is seeking reinforcements from the non Netherese population of the realms. Though it does seem that said recruits occupy a very low rung in the hierarchy of the Shadovar at present , this will no doubt change as more new entrants join their ranks and prove their ability.
Indeed. Any king/emperor with a brain knows that recruiting "non-natives" (either through force or bribery) and having them fight your battles is one of the many ways to keep your original army, or most of it, at least, alive.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I like this. If the Spellplague managed to ravage an entire magical civilization (Halruaa), how much more would its effects be to a race a hundred times smaller.
-Being all plotarmory, the Spellplague could have simply skipped over them and done nothing. 
One could say that, of course. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 20:04:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I like this. If the Spellplague managed to ravage an entire magical civilization (Halruaa), how much more would its effects be to a race a hundred times smaller.
-Being all plotarmory, the Spellplague could have simply skipped over them and done nothing. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 13:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.
Those three feats were not done at the same time. And they were not done "casually." They did lose some men, too. And there a number of reasons they did those three, and the explanations, for me, are good enough. It's a matter of how one accepts it, or not.
On the saurials: If Larloch could find and get so many magical treasures (Thakorsil's Seat, Moon Orb, etc.) guarded by potent magic which even the gods would be wary to disturb, why can't Shade, which has an army of competent warriors and wizards, masters of magic few understand, not be able to find a small bunch of lost race?
Larloch is an insanely powerful guy whose been active in the Realms for centuries. He's got 60+ liches at his command, and Lurue only knows how many agents working for him, both directly and so indirectly as to confuse Machiavelli. And he's got some sort of arrangement with Mystra.
Compare that to a few dozen powerful mages and a bunch of folks that have been out of the picture for almost the entire time Larloch's been active. A bunch of folks who should be too busy elsewhere to go looking for some isolated patch of ground that a near-god couldn't find when he was literally directly over it.
How are those things anywhere close to the same thing?
And if it was so challenging for Shade to take Sembia, destroy Zhentil Keep, and threaten the Heartlands with destruction -- then how come they've continued to expand, and haven't had to fight to hold on to what they've got? One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.
Well in the Neverwinter novels one notices a lot of new recruits in the ranks of the Shadovar. Including a certain highly effective assassin and they seem to to supplementing their forces with shadow wraiths and other undead. From this one can concur that Shade enclave has indeed taken significant losses and is seeking reinforcements from the non Netherese population of the realms. Though it does seem that said recruits occupy a very low rung in the hierarchy of the Shadovar at present , this will no doubt change as more new entrants join their ranks and prove their ability. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 07:16:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else.
Shades as Villain Sue? Better and better. Bane in that role was at least understandable - he's pretty much the god of Evil Overlords.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's noted that while the saurials don't have many connections to the world outside the Vale, they do have a number of young among them who have been cautioned by the elders for wandering beyond the limits of the Lost Vale. And it's likely that these saurial wanderers are the cause for the increased "tales and legends" of dragon/dinosaur-like folk pervading surrounding cultures.
Dragonbait wasn't too shy, though almost no one seemed to care a lot about one more variety of lizard folk running around. Grypht, to much lesser degree.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think you mean The Maelstrom's Eye.
Ah, thanks, memoria fractalis est (note to self: mark quote-notes in full).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They could have subjugated the Saurials simply as a means to gain access to the portals to their world, the true thing the Shadovar might have been after.
What for, especially after what Moander did there? They couldn't find diseased jungles or wastelands closer to home?
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
how come they've continued to expand, and haven't had to fight to hold on to what they've got? One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger.
And especially ludicrous after they get half of the continent hissing and almost got their mythallar crashed in the Return trilogy.
So, indeed, a Villain Sue. Won't even bother to edition-war this - the creeping disneyification started in 3.5 or so, though it was mostly about elves back then. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 04:10:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.
Those three feats were not done at the same time. And they were not done "casually." They did lose some men, too. And there a number of reasons they did those three, and the explanations, for me, are good enough. It's a matter of how one accepts it, or not.
On the saurials: If Larloch could find and get so many magical treasures (Thakorsil's Seat, Moon Orb, etc.) guarded by potent magic which even the gods would be wary to disturb, why can't Shade, which has an army of competent warriors and wizards, masters of magic few understand, not be able to find a small bunch of lost race?
Larloch is an insanely powerful guy whose been active in the Realms for centuries. He's got 60+ liches at his command, and Lurue only knows how many agents working for him, both directly and so indirectly as to confuse Machiavelli. And he's got some sort of arrangement with Mystra.
Compare that to a few dozen powerful mages and a bunch of folks that have been out of the picture for almost the entire time Larloch's been active. A bunch of folks who should be too busy elsewhere to go looking for some isolated patch of ground that a near-god couldn't find when he was literally directly over it.
How are those things anywhere close to the same thing?
And if it was so challenging for Shade to take Sembia, destroy Zhentil Keep, and threaten the Heartlands with destruction -- then how come they've continued to expand, and haven't had to fight to hold on to what they've got? One city of a few tens of thousands of people (if that many) simply should not be able to lose numbers of troops and yet continue getting bigger and bigger. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:08:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power.
Those three feats were not done at the same time. And they were not done "casually." They did lose some men, too. And there a number of reasons they did those three, and the explanations, for me, are good enough. It's a matter of how one accepts it, or not.
On the saurials: If Larloch could find and get so many magical treasures (Thakorsil's Seat, Moon Orb, etc.) guarded by potent magic which even the gods would be wary to disturb, why can't Shade, which has an army of competent warriors and wizards, masters of magic few understand, not be able to find a small bunch of lost race? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 01:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
How come they didn’t use the portal like Sage suggested a few posts back?
I'm thinking now, that maybe the Spellplague either disrupted and/or collapsed the portal* back to the saurial homeworld.
I like this. If the Spellplague managed to ravage an entire magical civilization (Halruaa), how much more would its effects be to a race a hundred times smaller. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:59:08
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps. But Telamont has seen far stranger races and mostly ignored them. Whatever it was that drew him to the saurials must be really more important than the the mere existence of the said creatures.
-It stands to reason that the Shadovar could have known about the settlement, through means Sage mentioned above. From there, there's various plausible explanations. Most simply, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, when you're making plans or actually carrying out taking over the region, you don't want to leave any wild cards carelessly laying around- they could have subjugated the Saurials as a preventative measure. They could have subjugated the Saurials simply as a means to gain access to the portals to their world, the true thing the Shadovar might have been after. They could have believed the Saurials with the Star Peaks Dinosaurs, which had direct connections to Netheril.
Given Telamont's interest in other planes, I suppose the 'portal' is one of the reasons. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:54:18
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
How come they didn’t use the portal like Sage suggested a few posts back?
I'm thinking now, that maybe the Spellplague either disrupted and/or collapsed the portal* back to the saurial homeworld.
* I've long had a theory that the devastation of the Spellplague may not have been limited to just the two worlds and their respective fields of magic -- and that the planar transposing of both Abeir and Toril, might have caused some fundamental shift in the alignment of Realmspace with the rest of the multiverse.
Mystra and the Weave did encompass the entirety of Realmspace, after all. So it stands to reason that her death and the destruction of the Weave wrought damage beyond just Toril -- damage which, perhaps somewhat lessened by their planar connection, struck Abeir as well. So what if, when Toril and Abeir reconnected, it caused some kind of planar imbalance, forcing Realmspace out of alignment with most rest of the multiverse? Portals and gateways to worlds beyond Realmspace might have been severed, or collapsed. Or their destination points may have been redirected to locations within Realmspace, instead of beyond it. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 17:11:08
What enchantment makes the Lost Vale, well lost?
What happened to their patron demi-god (Finder)?
How come they didn’t use the portal like Sage suggested a few posts back?
What are the Shadovar doing there now?
Thank for sparking my interest again in the saurials. Anyone thought about posting this problem in Erik’s contest thread?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:45:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could.
Admit it, you just dislike Shade too much you that you find such "find" unlikely. If the Zhents were the ones who found it, would you be happy?
Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.
One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."
If a near-god, sailing directly overhead and specifically looking for it can't find it, how did the Shades find it?
And nope, it's not because of my dislike of the Shades... I don't even dislike the Shades, as such, and if I was redrawing the Realms to my own liking, those Realms would still include the Shades. What I dislike about the Shades are the way that one single city, gone from the Realms for centuries, has managed to subjugate Sembia, destroy Zhentil Keep, threaten the survival of the nations of the Heartlands, and just generally become one of the sole threats to all that is, in the setting.
I'm not happy with anyone finding something that was lost for centuries, and that had managed to remain hidden despite becoming the home to a new society. No one at all found it until the saurials were there, and then someone gone from the scene for more than a millenia casually does so, at the same time that they're conquering Sembia and casually destroying the Zhents' seat of power. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 03:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps. But Telamont has seen far stranger races and mostly ignored them. Whatever it was that drew him to the saurials must be really more important than the the mere existence of the said creatures.
-It stands to reason that the Shadovar could have known about the settlement, through means Sage mentioned above. From there, there's various plausible explanations. Most simply, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, when you're making plans or actually carrying out taking over the region, you don't want to leave any wild cards carelessly laying around- they could have subjugated the Saurials as a preventative measure. They could have subjugated the Saurials simply as a means to gain access to the portals to their world, the true thing the Shadovar might have been after. They could have believed the Saurials with the Star Peaks Dinosaurs, which had direct connections to Netheril. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.
One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."
-Just their mere existence could be reason enough.
Perhaps. But Telamont has seen far stranger races and mostly ignored them. Whatever it was that drew him to the saurials must be really more important than the the mere existence of the said creatures. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.
One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found."
-Just their mere existence could be reason enough. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:52:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could.
Admit it, you just dislike Shade too much you that you find such "find" unlikely. If the Zhents were the ones who found it, would you be happy?
Seriously, though. Shade does not need the Lost Vale to gain more prominence. Nearly all of Faerun---from kings to peasants---know them and what they can do. I gather the saurials possess something that caught the attention of Telamont or one of the princes.
One wise man once said, "Anything that's lost can be found." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:44:02
I wouldn't call the saurials weak. They're said to be able to adapt to their surroundings very quickly, and have developed a very focused interested in the various forms of magic on Toril.
This adds an unexpected element that can't always be as easily countered as the more predictable Zhentarim, for example. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:32:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Regardless, I see that portal to the saurial homeworld in the Lost Vale being a major arcane element that would draw the interest of the Shadovar.
Plus the saurials are a weak race (compared to most of Shade's actual and potential enemies, at least) and thus can be easily dealt with by the Shadovar. If they could annihilate the Zhents, then... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There was a throwaway mention in The Maelstrom (Cloakmaster Cycle):
I think you mean The Maelstrom's Eye. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:27:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could.
The Shades have spent centuries expertly mastering the understanding of remaining hidden on another plane. I'd expect they'd have some inkling about what to look for when it comes to portals connecting other worlds in mysterious lost vales.
I do agree that it shouldn't have been an easy discovery, though. Perhaps either by chance, or hinted speculation arising from some other undertaking in the surrounding environs of the Lost Vale.
It's noted that while the saurials don't have many connections to the world outside the Vale, they do have a number of young among them who have been cautioned by the elders for wandering beyond the limits of the Lost Vale. And it's likely that these saurial wanderers are the cause for the increased "tales and legends" of dragon/dinosaur-like folk pervading surrounding cultures. An agent of the Shade could have overheard these legends, or encountered a youngling saurial wanderer, and then sought to discover where they came from.
Regardless, I see that portal to the saurial homeworld in the Lost Vale being a major arcane element that would draw the interest of the Shadovar. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:52:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
I think it was more to make the Shades even more prominent, as opposed to anything else. The Lost Vale and its people have never been all that prominent in published Realmslore... Hardly anyone in-setting knows about them, and until the Shades somehow found it, it was nearly impossible for anyone to find the Lost Vale. I, personally, find it unlikely the Shades would have had any real interest in finding the Lost Vale, and I find it even more unlikely they could have found it when no one else could. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:24:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
-So no one can accuse anyone else of forgetting about them. "Blah, blah, blah, something vaguely referencing Saurials, blah, blah, blah" looks better than nothing and, "OMG! They don't even know that a highly secretive society of sentient saurials live in the area! Do these people do their homework? Do they know anything!?"
-Also, maybe as an easter egg. Most things in the past ten, twenty years don't really mention Saurials at all. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:16:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird.
To make old fans curious...
---
I find dragonborn redundant. How many creatures must be descended from dragonkind? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:48:54
It really makes you wonder why they bothered to mention them at all in 4e. Weird. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 17:49:33
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There was a throwaway mention in The Maelstrom (Cloakmaster Cycle)
-Well, if that was what I was thinking of (I did read that series), there we go. And, at least I know I am not crazy. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 11:54:09
I think Saurials have been usurped by the Dragonborn in the current realms so there is not much hope of seeing them again. Frankly you hardly even hear anything about Finder. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 10:53:26
There was a throwaway mention in The Maelstrom (Cloakmaster Cycle):
quote:
I used to think that a lizard was a lizard, you know, but then I saw that there were as many types of them as there are of people like us. I met some trogs once, not very friendly ones at that, and, wow, did they ever stink. It was incredible. Then I met dracons, saurials, sithp'k, and, of course, the wasag, like that little blue guy over there.
- Gaeadrelle Goldring
Doesn't necessarily means they were in wildspace, given that she "studied art of some kind" in "some place called Kozakura".  |
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