| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Valmon |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 13:45:15
In the end of the Lady Penintent trilogy, part of the drows turned into Dark elves again...
Why salvatore do not include dark elves in his stories post spell plague? I think its totally natural drizzt get along with them (and even drizzt should have turned into a Dark Elf, but I wont discuss that)...
And second and most important... in the thousand orcs trilogy, in the begining of the last book... it shows drizzt a hundred years after... and he said to a assassin about the Fall of Promenade and the followeres of Elistrae... but in neverwinter series... it do not shows any of this... drizzt never encountered them...
and he never will.... because the fall of the promenade happens befooore the spell plague... (right after the time of the troubles)...
can someone explain me this better? am I forgettin something? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 02:54:47
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also the percentage of pure blooded drow can't be that significant after multiple millennia of coexistence, and only a handful of drow were able to use a kiira to perform some high magic spell (AFAIK), not all of them.
In this post: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67 Ed says that approximately 22% of drow worship Eilistraee and 10-12% worship her exclusively. That's a significant percentage, which is what I think Lilianviaten meant?
Oh, I should've remembered that thread, my mistake. |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 02:31:11
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Also the percentage of pure blooded drow can't be that significant after multiple millennia of coexistence, and only a handful of drow were able to use a kiira to perform some high magic spell (AFAIK), not all of them.
In this post: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67 Ed says that approximately 22% of drow worship Eilistraee and 10-12% worship her exclusively. That's a significant percentage, which is what I think Lilianviaten meant? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 22:14:15
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Anyway, that's just my speculation. It's just as possible that Bob simply didn't like the change and didn't want to incorporate it into his books- when it comes to drow, Bob generally seems to be in favor of preserving a certain status quo among them.
Well, even Salvatore introduced another Drow turned good in his series with Tos'un Armgo.
Eh..."good" is a strong word to use with Tos'un.
And he introduced him and proceeded to do absolutely nothing with him. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 21:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Anyway, that's just my speculation. It's just as possible that Bob simply didn't like the change and didn't want to incorporate it into his books- when it comes to drow, Bob generally seems to be in favor of preserving a certain status quo among them.
Well, even Salvatore introduced another Drow turned good in his series with Tos'un Armgo. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 19:16:01
quote:
Originally posted by Valmon
In the end of the Lady Penintent trilogy, part of the drows turned into Dark elves again...
Why salvatore do not include dark elves in his stories post spell plague? I think its totally natural drizzt get along with them (and even drizzt should have turned into a Dark Elf, but I wont discuss that)...
And second and most important... in the thousand orcs trilogy, in the begining of the last book... it shows drizzt a hundred years after... and he said to a assassin about the Fall of Promenade and the followeres of Elistrae... but in neverwinter series... it do not shows any of this... drizzt never encountered them...
and he never will.... because the fall of the promenade happens befooore the spell plague... (right after the time of the troubles)...
can someone explain me this better? am I forgettin something?
Well, not knowing Mr. Salvatore personally, I can't speak to his exact motivations in not having Drizzt encounter one of the dark elves. I can, however, speculate.
The simplest guess is that, for whatever reason, he felt that Drizzt encountering a dark elf wouldn't fit with the story he was trying to tell with the Neverwinter Saga.
It's hard to say exactly how Drizzt would react to meeting a dark elf. Maybe they'd get along- though I suspect that would depend on the individual dark elf in question. But that might not have been what RAS was going for. The Neverwinter Saga is ultimately about Drizzt's inability to move on and move forward with his life and his inability to find peace without the Companions.
Him meeting one of these dark elves and having that meeting go positively would have either had no effect on his ultimate outcome- he interacts with plenty of people positively throughout the series without it changing his inability to move on; adding a dark elf to that list would have only added another inconsequential character to the series- or it would have completely changed the direction Bob wanted him to go in as a character.
Alternatively, I suspect the meeting with a dark elf might have actually had a fairly negative impact on Drizzt; other elves get saved from their heritage and he doesn't. This could make him feel angry that he wasn't changed, or plague him with self doubt that there may be something innately wrong with him, or otherwise he may have felt insulted by the insinuation that there was something wrong with being a drow at all; it's the drow's culture and society that makes them evil, not an innate nature. Whether or not that's true, I think it's something that Drizzt believes- something he has to believe to be who he is.
In any case, Drizzt already has well more than his fair share of angst in the books, both anger and self doubt, so he didn't need more coming from this source to add to that.
Anyway, that's just my speculation. It's just as possible that Bob simply didn't like the change and didn't want to incorporate it into his books- when it comes to drow, Bob generally seems to be in favor of preserving a certain status quo among them. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 17:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, in Lisa Smedman's novel "The Gilded Rune" one of the new brown elves from The Lady Penitent trilogy appears (can't remember if other brown elves appeared too or not), so the Spellplague didn't wipe them out.
But yeah, it would be nice if WotC actually provided some more info about them.
Thanks for the tip. I had been meaning to read that, but just hadn't got around to it. Nevertheless, 1 book mentioning them isn't enough. WOTC spent 6 books on Lolth's Silence and another 3 on the aftermath (her coming back and using her new power to wipe out the drow pantheon).
The shocking culmination of these NINE books is that:
1) all drow gods are dead, and Lolth reigns supreme
2) a significant percentage of drow have their curse reversed
3) drow rediscover high magic
4) drow are no longer magically bound to the Underdark
5) as a result of priestesses being without power for so long, it's theorized that gender equality is creeping into drow society
These are all HUGE changes to drow society. Yet in 4e, the drow don't move to the surface in large numbers, despite no longer being attracted to the Underdark's faezress (sp). They don't use any high magic. There's no mention of what happens to the collapsed faiths of Elistraee and Vhaeraun.
My biggest issue is that the new "dark elves" aren't being hunted down by the drow. As we've seen in the novels concerning Liriel and Drizzt, Lolth is relentless in sending her followers to kill drow who escape her web. To have this huge "Rise of the Underdark" campaign, without ever addressing that issue, just baffles me.
Well, the purpose of that event was to make the drow Lolth-only, so it's point kinda was to no longer have to deal with variety in the race. That's probably why all of that never gets mentioned anywhere.
Also the percentage of pure blooded drow can't be that significant after multiple millennia of coexistence, and only a handful of drow were able to use a kiira to perform some high magic spell (AFAIK), not all of them.
Besides, as I said, there were plans about this matter. Menzoberranzan: CoI should've dealt with it. E's and V's followers (and the returned siblings themselves) were supposed to start ''rebuilding'', the lolthites were supposed to be trying to stop them at their weakest and so on... Such content was removed and this probably means that Wizards want to stay true to the goal they had with the drowpocalypse.
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| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 17:24:56
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, in Lisa Smedman's novel "The Gilded Rune" one of the new brown elves from The Lady Penitent trilogy appears (can't remember if other brown elves appeared too or not), so the Spellplague didn't wipe them out.
But yeah, it would be nice if WotC actually provided some more info about them.
Thanks for the tip. I had been meaning to read that, but just hadn't got around to it. Nevertheless, 1 book mentioning them isn't enough. WOTC spent 6 books on Lolth's Silence and another 3 on the aftermath (her coming back and using her new power to wipe out the drow pantheon).
The shocking culmination of these NINE books is that:
1) all drow gods are dead, and Lolth reigns supreme
2) a significant percentage of drow have their curse reversed
3) drow rediscover high magic
4) drow are no longer magically bound to the Underdark
5) as a result of priestesses being without power for so long, it's theorized that gender equality is creeping into drow society
These are all HUGE changes to drow society. Yet in 4e, the drow don't move to the surface in large numbers, despite no longer being attracted to the Underdark's faezress (sp). They don't use any high magic. There's no mention of what happens to the collapsed faiths of Elistraee and Vhaeraun.
My biggest issue is that the new "dark elves" aren't being hunted down by the drow. As we've seen in the novels concerning Liriel and Drizzt, Lolth is relentless in sending her followers to kill drow who escape her web. To have this huge "Rise of the Underdark" campaign, without ever addressing that issue, just baffles me. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 16:13:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well, the redeemed Drow were turned into Brown elves as I understand it, however as indicated by many not a word mentioned about them every again. One reason why I believe novels should not be part of FR canon, the game designers have a hard time catching up with something the continuity editor did not catch.
Oh I forgot, in RIF there has not been a continuity editor for years.
That's because they were pretty much an excuse to say -see? The only potentially normal drow now are no longer drow, while the other ones are 'unwilling' and 'ebil inside'. No more good/free dark elves in the Realms!-
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| Thauranil |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 14:52:41
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, in Lisa Smedman's novel "The Gilded Rune" one of the new brown elves from The Lady Penitent trilogy appears (can't remember if other brown elves appeared too or not), so the Spellplague didn't wipe them out.
But yeah, it would be nice if WotC actually provided some more info about them.
Really, well I just might pick it up then.
Always been a bit curious about them. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 14:36:28
Actually, in Lisa Smedman's novel "The Gilded Rune" one of the new brown elves from The Lady Penitent trilogy appears (can't remember if other brown elves appeared too or not), so the Spellplague didn't wipe them out.
But yeah, it would be nice if WotC actually provided some more info about them. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 05:49:12
Well back to my main point, the Brown Elves were formed, fulfilling a prophecy that Qilué Veladorn would create a new race.
Of course the spell plague might have killed all Brown Elves over that 100 year time span we know very little about. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 05:12:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*Blink* My main complaint was about the novels, not the poor , likely underpaid, employees. Most novels are free lanced and not by employees, though indeed there used to be one or more assigned to the task of saying does this follow what FR is before the final print is released.
I'm sure that there are imperfect novels, but the authors are, at least, writing them from artistic goals (it doesn't make sense to write a game-setting book for money, as there hardly is any). If their work doesn't even contribute toward the design of the game setting they presumably love, why would they be doing it at all?
Note, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people assigned to make sure that novels and game supplements agree, but that simply ruling the novels don't matter at all is not the right way.
There are, if you recall, more people who are introduced to the Forgotten Realms through novels than game supplements. We can't ignore those people. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 05:07:57
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well, the redeemed Drow were turned into Brown elves as I understand it, however as indicated by many not a word mentioned about them every again. One reason why I believe novels should not be part of FR canon, the game designers have a hard time catching up with something the continuity editor did not catch.
The fact that employees have a hard time doing something right is a poor argument for saying that they should not do it at all. Otherwise we'd be in a position where washing one's hands before preparing food was forbidden in fast-food restaurants, instead of just imperfectly enforced.
*Blink* My main complaint was about the novels, not the poor , likely underpaid, employees. Most novels are free lanced and not by employees, though indeed there used to be one or more assigned to the task of saying does this follow what FR is before the final print is released. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 04:57:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well, the redeemed Drow were turned into Brown elves as I understand it, however as indicated by many not a word mentioned about them every again. One reason why I believe novels should not be part of FR canon, the game designers have a hard time catching up with something the continuity editor did not catch.
The fact that employees have a hard time doing something right is a poor argument for saying that they should not do it at all. Otherwise we'd be in a position where washing one's hands before preparing food was forbidden in fast-food restaurants, instead of just imperfectly enforced. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 04:49:59
Well, the redeemed Drow were turned into Brown elves as I understand it, however as indicated by many not a word mentioned about them every again. One reason why I believe novels should not be part of FR canon, the game designers have a hard time catching up with something the continuity editor did not catch.
Oh I forgot, in RIF there has not been a continuity editor for years. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 04:40:51
It's a shame WotC dropped this idea, and won't do anything with non-evil drow (except for maybe Drizzt). From the sound of things, they're only interested in Lolth and her followers, which is disappointing. I was a fan of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and I had hoped to see more about them in future novels, but it doesn't sound like they will. I am hoping they will change there mind, since it sounds like 5e is coming with some big changes, but they are mainly focused on the Sundering right now.
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 17:43:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I believe the book says "hundreds" of drow changed. Those hundreds, spread around the various cities, were probably all slaughtered trying to make their ways, blindly, out of the underdark, without their innate powers that helped them survive that environment.
WOTC really dropped the ball on this one. There are several 4e novels featuring the drow, in addition to sourcebooks and the "Rise of the Underdark" adventure. It's beyond me that none of them address the aftermath of the Lady Penitent series.
Maybe because it's utterly impossible to do in a way that would be neither laughable, nor literally dead-end, as described by Aulduron here (or myself there)?
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Additionally, 4e is very clear that tieflings are not necessarily evil. Either fiendish blood makes mortals inherently evil, or it doesn't. There is a character in Kemp's books who has Mephistopheles for a father, and he's still good. So I don't know how balor blood from centuries ago makes the drow irredeemable.
Isn't the answer obvious? I mean, put two and two together already? 
Alu-fiend: half-fiend (Succubus/Human), about 1/5 are non-evil.
Daemonfey: half-fiend (Succubus/Silver Elf - let's take the repeatable variant rather than experimental oddities), Always Chaotic Evil.
Compare?  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 21:38:58
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I believe the book says "hundreds" of drow changed. Those hundreds, spread around the various cities, were probably all slaughtered trying to make their ways, blindly, out of the underdark, without their innate powers that helped them survive that environment.
WOTC really dropped the ball on this one. There are several 4e novels featuring the drow, in addition to sourcebooks and the "Rise of the Underdark" adventure. It's beyond me that none of them address the aftermath of the Lady Penitent series. I would love to see the stories of these newly redeemed elves trying to find their way in the world. I would also love to see the stories of drow who followed other gods trying to regain their footing (maybe an update on Elaine's great villain Shakti Hunzrin).
Additionally, 4e is very clear that tieflings are not necessarily evil. Either fiendish blood makes mortals inherently evil, or it doesn't. There is a character in Kemp's books who has Mephistopheles for a father, and he's still good. So I don't know how balor blood from centuries ago makes the drow irredeemable.
Design choices. Good/free drow are not WotC's cup of tea.
There should have been lore solving the LP nonsensical ending in the latest Menzoberranzan sourcebook, but at the end it was cut out. The idea was that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun didn't stupidly throw away themselves in the chess game, but only their divinity (that was used in the ''redemption'' thingy -which still makes little sense concept IMO, being redeemed from being born as drow and turned into a wood elf is just bad design-), thus becoming archfey. At the time of 1470s they and their followers (including the changed ones, I guess) were supposed to be busy in the reclamation of a domain in the Feywild and in keeping their fight for drow freedom (possibly using that new dark elf city as a safe heaven for the drow choosing to walk away from Lolth -- tho this wasn't explicitly included in the lore --).
I hope that they decide to release these info in the near future but I doubt it, TBH. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 19:29:03
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I believe the book says "hundreds" of drow changed. Those hundreds, spread around the various cities, were probably all slaughtered trying to make their ways, blindly, out of the underdark, without their innate powers that helped them survive that environment.
WOTC really dropped the ball on this one. There are several 4e novels featuring the drow, in addition to sourcebooks and the "Rise of the Underdark" adventure. It's beyond me that none of them address the aftermath of the Lady Penitent series. I would love to see the stories of these newly redeemed elves trying to find their way in the world. I would also love to see the stories of drow who followed other gods trying to regain their footing (maybe an update on Elaine's great villain Shakti Hunzrin).
Additionally, 4e is very clear that tieflings are not necessarily evil. Either fiendish blood makes mortals inherently evil, or it doesn't. There is a character in Kemp's books who has Mephistopheles for a father, and he's still good. So I don't know how balor blood from centuries ago makes the drow irredeemable. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 07:29:38
Im of the opinion that some inner six sense kept the myeritari from mating with the tainted ones.perhaps a rotten smell! Lol |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
oh and only those who worshiped Elistraee were redeemed and became dark elves once again, from among the Ilythiir at least.
-Those who worshiped Eilistraee, or were of pure Miyeritaari blood- which, though statistically pretty damn small, after thousands of years of non-Miyeritaari bloodlines being mixed with them, still existed as stated in the book.
Yes of course, after all Q'arlynd himself was of pure Miyeritaari blood and was thus redeemed. Certainly he was not especially loyal to Elistraee. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:10:49
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
oh and only those who worshiped Elistraee were redeemed and became dark elves once again, from among the Ilythiir at least.
-Those who worshiped Eilistraee, or were of pure Miyeritaari blood- which, though statistically pretty damn small, after thousands of years of non-Miyeritaari bloodlines being mixed with them, still existed as stated in the book. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 19:59:24
I believe the book says "hundreds" of drow changed. Those hundreds, spread around the various cities, were probably all slaughtered trying to make their ways, blindly, out of the underdark, without their innate powers that helped them survive that environment. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 15:08:04
oh and only those who worshiped Elistraee were redeemed and became dark elves once again, from among the Ilythiir at least. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 15:05:18
Well actually only a very few drow were turned back into dark elves and those few were taken under the protection of Corellon , whatever that means so perhaps most people dont know they even exist. This is just a guess though. |
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