| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 23:46:59
I posted this in What are You Reading:
quote:
Elaine Cunningham's "The More Things Change" was also great, giving a look at the past, and the future, of Elaith Craulnobur, one of FR's more intriguing characters.
If Drizzt Do'urden has a mirror image in the Realms it is Elaith, an evil elf. Both find their essential nature is opposite of what their societies expect from them. The difference is that Cunningham is simply better than Salvatore at depicting this internal tension (though perhaps it is easier depicting an evil elf then a good drow - evil is less likely to be cheese.)
It got me thinking, has Elaith ever met Drizzt or Entreri? I do not recall any meetings in Elaine's works, but I stopped reading Salvatore's works after Menzoberranzan attacked Mithril Hall. It would be interesting to see these folk interact...
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| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 19:13:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I would be more interested in an interaction between Elaith and Jarlaxle. Two old chess masters trying to outmaneuver each other would be a real treat. I would also love to see Elaith meet Lilten from the Shadowbane series. Those are 2 elves who could give the Serpent a run for his money.
You know, Elaith and Jarlaxle WOULD make for a decent alliance, except Elaith would probably be the one to eventually let elven prejudice against dark elves sour the opportunity. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 18:37:05
I would be more interested in an interaction between Elaith and Jarlaxle. Two old chess masters trying to outmaneuver each other would be a real treat. I would also love to see Elaith meet Lilten from the Shadowbane series. Those are 2 elves who could give the Serpent a run for his money. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 18:35:02
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
I guess I'm the only one that likes Drizzt's emotional struggles.
You're not alone. I love Drizzt as a hero. Truth be told, the James Bond types will always be more popular though. The ones who are impossibly sure of themselves, so they kill without hesitation and bed every woman who interests them. Drizzt questions himself, feels sympathy for his enemies sometimes, loves one woman with all his heart, and values his friends more than himself. That doesn't scream "badass" to a lot of people, but he's pretty awesome in my book.
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| BEAST |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 03:32:32
I wonder which would trigger the bigger *ahh-ooh-gah* factor: the sight of Catti-brie's bare hardware in the pale moonlight, or the sight of Liriel's in infrared?
Elminster, methinks this calls for a closely scrutinized scholarly investigation!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 00:54:15
Elaine did once comment on Liriel meeting Drizzt:
quote:
I received in this morning's email a note that quoted a post from the RAS board, something I wrote in response to the perennial question, "What would happen if Drizz and Liriel met?" For those who might be interested in my take on the matter, here 'tis.
*********************************************
Liriel: (Oo! Cute little drow toyboy! Thank you, Eilistraee, goddess of the butt-neckid moonlit dance.)
Drizzt: (Danger! Matron-in-the-making! Strengthen me, Mielikki, whose unicorn favors the chaste and virtuous.) ::draws his two scimitars::
Liriel: ::sniffs:: "Put away the cutlery, honey, and take a look at THESE twins..."
::At this inopportune moment, Catti-brie walks in, and the ensuing catfight makes the season three showdown between Buffy and Faith look like a sorority tea party.::
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| Eilserus |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 21:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'll second that!! Liriel could be just what he needs- a drow gal who's as fun-loving and spontaneous as he is serious and reserved..... They DO say opposites attract, after all. ;)
Those two would probably be trying to kill each other inside of a day of meeting. hehehe |
| Schreckstoff |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 19:08:25
I guess I'm the only one that likes Drizzt's emotional struggles. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 20:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Interestingly, in Ed's published Realms, before TSR, Elaith was one of the characters (Mirt was another, as was Tamper Tencoin, and Storm Silverhand) that appeared far more than Elminster, who was most often a narrator or knowing old sage supporting character rather than a protagnoist (TSR policies turned him into that).
Ed wrote at least six Saint//Fafhrd & Mouser-ish stories featuring Elaith, of which I've read five. One was a manuscript copy and MIGHT never have been published, but the other four I read in various Canadian publications (well after they came out; I think one of them was a 1969 magazine, but I'd have to track down my copy to make sure of that). Elaith was a fascinating and well-developed character in all of them, long before gamers discovered him (and of course, Elaine first read about him, in FR1/WATERDEEP AND THE NORTH).
love to all,
THO
Please, Lady, tell me where to find these stories!!!!!!!!!!
Please, Lady, tell me where to find these stories!!!!!!!!!! |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 01 Jan 2015 : 08:42:00
Sorry to revive this very old thread but stumble on it again and...quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Interestingly, in Ed's published Realms, before TSR, Elaith was one of the characters (Mirt was another, as was Tamper Tencoin, and Storm Silverhand) that appeared far more than Elminster, who was most often a narrator or knowing old sage supporting character rather than a protagnoist (TSR policies turned him into that).
Ed wrote at least six Saint//Fafhrd & Mouser-ish stories featuring Elaith, of which I've read five. One was a manuscript copy and MIGHT never have been published, but the other four I read in various Canadian publications (well after they came out; I think one of them was a 1969 magazine, but I'd have to track down my copy to make sure of that). Elaith was a fascinating and well-developed character in all of them, long before gamers discovered him (and of course, Elaine first read about him, in FR1/WATERDEEP AND THE NORTH).
love to all,
THO
Please, Lady, tell me where to find these stories!!!!!!!!!!
I concur, I'd love to find out more about Ed's pre-TSR published FR writings. They should be studied like the guys pawing through all of Gygax's smallest scribbles. for Greyhawk lore. :) |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 23 Aug 2011 : 00:06:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Interestingly, in Ed's published Realms, before TSR, Elaith was one of the characters (Mirt was another, as was Tamper Tencoin, and Storm Silverhand) that appeared far more than Elminster, who was most often a narrator or knowing old sage supporting character rather than a protagnoist (TSR policies turned him into that).
Ed wrote at least six Saint//Fafhrd & Mouser-ish stories featuring Elaith, of which I've read five. One was a manuscript copy and MIGHT never have been published, but the other four I read in various Canadian publications (well after they came out; I think one of them was a 1969 magazine, but I'd have to track down my copy to make sure of that). Elaith was a fascinating and well-developed character in all of them, long before gamers discovered him (and of course, Elaine first read about him, in FR1/WATERDEEP AND THE NORTH).
love to all,
THO
Please, Lady, tell me where to find these stories!!!!!!!!!! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Aug 2011 : 00:01:04
I'll second that!! Liriel could be just what he needs- a drow gal who's as fun-loving and spontaneous as he is serious and reserved..... They DO say opposites attract, after all. ;) |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 22 Aug 2011 : 20:09:26
I'd much prefer a Liriel and Drizzt meeting. Drizzt is in serious need of some female companionship, and that bald chick who changes earings like she changes men may a bit too freaky for him....... |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 05:35:38
Well, we know Elaith, while he dislikes drow, can be overwhelmed by them now and then...
Witness the smooch Qilue planted on him for that.
...Oh deary deary me, I must keep myself from envisioning that in the context of an Elaith and Drizzt meeting. Even if it amuses me far too much... |
| BEAST |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 11:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Thanks for the nod, but the down side of being so obsessive about one author's characters is ignorance of most of the others'. I know nothing of Elaith.
-You need to change that, and read the Swords and Songs series, then.
I concur. Elaith is one of my favorite Realms characters, and certainly a very nuanced and intriguing villain.
I know, I know... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 18:26:27
-Mirt the Moneylender is another character, like Elaith, who has a lot of repeatability. Durnan, I guess as well, but I prefer Mirt to Durnan! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 08:09:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Interestingly, in Ed's published Realms, before TSR, Elaith was one of the characters (Mirt was another, as was Tamper Tencoin, and Storm Silverhand) that appeared far more than Elminster, who was most often a narrator or knowing old sage supporting character rather than a protagnoist (TSR policies turned him into that).
I would love to hear more about how Elaith operated in such a fashion, milady, if Ed should prove willing to share further on the subject.  |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 07:46:59
Interestingly, in Ed's published Realms, before TSR, Elaith was one of the characters (Mirt was another, as was Tamper Tencoin, and Storm Silverhand) that appeared far more than Elminster, who was most often a narrator or knowing old sage supporting character rather than a protagnoist (TSR policies turned him into that).
Ed wrote at least six Saint//Fafhrd & Mouser-ish stories featuring Elaith, of which I've read five. One was a manuscript copy and MIGHT never have been published, but the other four I read in various Canadian publications (well after they came out; I think one of them was a 1969 magazine, but I'd have to track down my copy to make sure of that). Elaith was a fascinating and well-developed character in all of them, long before gamers discovered him (and of course, Elaine first read about him, in FR1/WATERDEEP AND THE NORTH).
love to all,
THO |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 05:16:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I concur. Elaith is one of my favorite Realms characters, and certainly a very nuanced and intriguing villain.
-Elaith, I think, is the most realistic character in the setting, based on the depth of personality, goals, and motivations that Elaine has "written into him". The only other character with that much of personality, goals, motivations, and so on, I think, is Elminster. But, because of his relative power level and importance, I find him more unrealistic than Elaith. Elaith isn't anyone to sneeze at, mind you, but a more "typical day" for him might be breaking into a trader's home to extort the money he owes Elaith, returning to his place of business to sell some magical weapons items smuggled from Thay to a group of Zhentarim slavers, being asked for 'favors' from local businessmen, and retiring to think back about Amnestria and his life on Evermeet, before it all came to an end. Elminster, his "typical day" is perceived to be a lot more...extravagant, and in that extravagance, I think the character loses some of his realism- even though Elminster does as many mundane things and as much reflection as Elaith, if not moreso, since he's older and has been through more. Since I always characterize Elaith as Michael Corleone, it's like Al Pachino in The Godfather, and Elminster as Al Pachino in Devil's Advocate, in terms of character development and repeatability and such. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:10:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Thanks for the nod, but the down side of being so obsessive about one author's characters is ignorance of most of the others'. I know nothing of Elaith.
-You need to change that, and read the Swords and Songs series, then.
I concur. Elaith is one of my favorite Realms characters, and certainly a very nuanced and intriguing villain. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 00:11:20
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Thanks for the nod, but the down side of being so obsessive about one author's characters is ignorance of most of the others'. I know nothing of Elaith.
-You need to change that, and read the Swords and Songs series, then. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 21:58:23
It has been confirmed here by Elaine that there will not be a collaboration between her and R.A.S. A shame, really. I would love to see an interaction between Elaith and Drizzt, or Elaith and Entreri, preferably pre-Spellplague, alas. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 21:57:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
I don't think, though, if there were interactions, they were meaningful in any way- I'm thinking more along the lines of, they pass each other in the street, neither side knowing who the other is, or really caring.
This has definitely happened on at least one occasion. The crazed elf Ellifain/Le'lorinel was stalking Drizzt, unbeknownst to the drow, and they ironically passed right past each other in a street. Their respective adventures took them right into each other's midst, yet they never even knew it! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 21:52:19
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Not in Salvatore's works, as far as I am aware (but BEAST, our resident Salvatore Scholar, would be able to confirm, deny, or correct).
Thanks for the nod, but the down side of being so obsessive about one author's characters is ignorance of most of the others'. I know nothing of Elaith. But as as been said, nothing has ever been published in RAS's works about him having met Drizzt or Entreri.
quote:
Speculating: it's unlikely. Entreri is an underworld character (Elaith's "kind of people"), but all things considered, he did not spend all that much time in the north. He passed through Waterdeep while looking for Regis, and then came back. Doing so, he might have tried to find information, and Elaith's network might have been a point of contact.
Entreri joined the Basadoni Cabal in Calimport around 1341 DR, but we haven't really been clued in on how he came to work for the Pook Guild. Regis stole the pasha's magic rubic around 1346 DR, so there's some mystery time there.
Pook sent some of his lesser henchmen to try to find the halfling over the next 7 years (1346-1353 DR), but retained Entreri as his prime assassin. We don't know how far his missions took him from Calimport during this period.
It wasn't until around 1353 DR that Entreri himself was dispatched, and he did not track Regis down until the spring of 1356 DR, narrowly missing the halfling in Ten-Towns at the end of The Crystal Shard. The pair returned to Calimport in the summer of 1356 DR in The Halfling's Gem. He likely traveled throughout the Sword Coast during this period, in search of his prey.
Regis was left to take over the guild in late 1356 DR, and the Companions departed to re-conquer Mithral Hall. The Legacy tells us that Entreri stole the guild away from Pasha Regis within tendays of the halfling's having attained the leadership position, but the assassin was soon beckoned by Vierna Do'Urden and Jarlaxle Baenre of Menzoberranzan. Both Entreri and Regis had returned to Mithral Hall by spring of 1358 DR to hassle Drizzt and the dwarves.
Entreri left Menzoberranzan in late summer of 1358 DR (Starless Night), and we do not hear from him again until he returns to Calimport in the spring of 1365 DR (The Silent Blade). Where he went, and what he was doing, during this 7-year stretch of time has never been revealed.
The assassin was tied up with Jarlaxle in one way or another in adventures between Calimport and the Bloodstone Lands until early 1369 DR (Road of the Patriarch). At the end of that tale, he claimed that he would be returning solo to Calimport. But we really don't know if he took a direct route there...
Rumor has it that the person of "Entreri" died, or otherwise disappeared at that time. Some observers believe that he took on a new identity of "Barrabus the Gray", but continued to live on in Calimport and Memnon for the next few decades, until the Netherese Shadovar came to the Calim Desert in the early 1400s (Gauntlgrym). At this point, Barrabus became an assassin slave of the tiefling-shade Herzgo Alegni, and his assignments have taken him far and wide across the North up until 1462 DR.
How do those dates tie in with known dates for Elaith's adventures?
quote:
Drizzt might have spent more time in Waterdeep in the interval years, when he was sailing as part of Deudermont's crew. Waterdeep could be considered Deudermont's port of call, so it's possible that Drizzt may have spent quite a lot of time there.
Drizzt and Catti-brie sailed aboard Deudermont's ship, the Sea Sprite, up and down the Sword Coast, from early 1359 to summer of 1364 DR (Passage to Dawn). They certainly spent considerable time in Waterdeep with their captain and crew.
Drizzt and Co. worked as hunters of highwaymen for the Council of Ten in Ten-Towns between 1365 and 1370 DR (Sea of Swords), but if you give any credence to the apocryphal work Once Around the Realms, Drizzt found himself sad and all alone on a raft in the Sea of Swords (sans Companions) on at least one occasion in 1367 DR. Who knows what circumstances led him to be there, and what he did before and after?
Drizzt lost his wife Catti-brie in 1385 DR to the Spellplague (The Ghost King), and when we next hear from him in 1409 DR (Gauntlgrym, we're told that he has been traveling abroad and rarely visits Mithral Hall anymore. He has an angrier edge about him, as well, and we're not told exactly what he's been doing for the last few decades, or with whom. |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 05:42:10
That's pretty much what I thought. Depending on the year, I'd expect that all three would be aware of each other by reputation.
I'm not really in favor of them meeting, just curious. I don't think it was ever intentional, but Elaith and Drizzt are far more mirrors of each other than Drizzt and Entreri are. Though I suppose Elaith was even more a mirror of Zaknafein since he worked so hard to fit his assigned role for years. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 18:38:15
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-There are no specific meetings between the above individuals in any published sources. A few times, their locations have overlapped, so in theory, the above may have interacted with each other in some way. I don't think, though, if there were interactions, they were meaningful in any way- I'm thinking more along the lines of, they pass each other in the street, neither side knowing who the other is, or really caring. Though, being a crime lord, it is possible that Elaith Craulnober and Artemis Entreri have worked together in the past (Elaith hiring him to do some of his dirty work, someone competing with Elaith hiring Entreri to do his/her dirty work, some kind of situation like that).
I can agree with this, though I think there are some things Elaith would prefer to handle directly. I'm inclined to think Elaith would handle the deed himself, before relying on a hired assassin. But for non-assassination jobs, I can see it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 17:15:45
-There are no specific meetings between the above individuals in any published sources. A few times, their locations have overlapped, so in theory, the above may have interacted with each other in some way. I don't think, though, if there were interactions, they were meaningful in any way- I'm thinking more along the lines of, they pass each other in the street, neither side knowing who the other is, or really caring. Though, being a crime lord, it is possible that Elaith Craulnober and Artemis Entreri have worked together in the past (Elaith hiring him to do some of his dirty work, someone competing with Elaith hiring Entreri to do his/her dirty work, some kind of situation like that). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 10:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Drizzt might have spent more time in Waterdeep in the interval years, when he was sailing as part of Deudermont's crew. Waterdeep could be considered Deudermont's port of call, so it's possible that Drizzt may have spent quite a lot of time there. So, it's not impossible, depending on how one sees Elaith - an elf that goes against the grain for the sake of going against the grain, in which case he may have enjoyed flouting his non-conformity by meeting with a known drow. Or, on the other hand, deep inside he may still be a high-born elf, with utter disdain for all things drow.
Though an outcast, Elaith very much retains a lot of elven sensibilities. I don't see him dealing with any drow, good or evil, unless his own interests dictated it. And I'm really not seeing, immediately, any situations where Elaith could benefit from meeting Drizzt. Liriel, maybe, if she needed some underworld contacts to accomplish something, but that would be her approaching him from a business/criminal standpoint. Drizzt, I'm not seeing it. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 08:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I posted this in What are You Reading:
quote:
Elaine Cunningham's "The More Things Change" was also great, giving a look at the past, and the future, of Elaith Craulnobur, one of FR's more intriguing characters.
If Drizzt Do'urden has a mirror image in the Realms it is Elaith, an evil elf. Both find their essential nature is opposite of what their societies expect from them. The difference is that Cunningham is simply better than Salvatore at depicting this internal tension (though perhaps it is easier depicting an evil elf then a good drow - evil is less likely to be cheese.)
It got me thinking, has Elaith ever met Drizzt or Entreri? I do not recall any meetings in Elaine's works, but I stopped reading Salvatore's works after Menzoberranzan attacked Mithril Hall. It would be interesting to see these folk interact...
Not in Salvatore's works, as far as I am aware (but BEAST, our resident Salvatore Scholar, would be able to confirm, deny, or correct).
Speculating: it's unlikely. Entreri is an underworld character (Elaith's "kind of people"), but all things considered, he did not spend all that much time in the north. He passed through Waterdeep while looking for Regis, and then came back. Doing so, he might have tried to find information, and Elaith's network might have been a point of contact.
Drizzt might have spent more time in Waterdeep in the interval years, when he was sailing as part of Deudermont's crew. Waterdeep could be considered Deudermont's port of call, so it's possible that Drizzt may have spent quite a lot of time there. So, it's not impossible, depending on how one sees Elaith - an elf that goes against the grain for the sake of going against the grain, in which case he may have enjoyed flouting his non-conformity by meeting with a known drow. Or, on the other hand, deep inside he may still be a high-born elf, with utter disdain for all things drow.
I was also thinking whether Drizzt would be in disguise in Waterdeep, which means that Elaith might have met him as another elf, but then I remembered he handed off the mask fo Regis at the end of The Halfling's Gem, based on his decision not to hide anymore what he was. He may have recovered it from Entreri, but the principle still stands, I suppose. |
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