| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hawkytom |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 01:48:10
***PLEASE NO SPOILERS!!*** (while searching for the answer to this question I found a spoiler about RAW trilogy, so decided it was better to ask my question here)
I'm getting ready to start Book 1 of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, I just finished the Netheril trilogy.
I have a question about related books/stories: I remember reading somewhere that I should read Return of the Archwizards trilogy after the Netheril Trilogy. I was wondering if there were any other books/shorts/series that are related to the two trilogys and I should also read. (I read Darksword the short story from Realms of Shadow, which I saw was recommended. I also read The Shadow Stone awhile back, but not sure if that matters...)
I was also curious about the Realms of Shadow anthology in general and if I should read all the short stories after finishing book 3 or if it's not important...thanks! |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 18:16:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Aye, nothing explicitly said about him becoming more powerful in the Plane of Shadow. But Telamont was hardly an "ordinary" human. So ordinary limitation of the magic in the Plane of Shadow to non-native beings might not be applicable to the Most High.
-Nothing says that he was anything but an ordinary Human (I'm not counting being a powerful magician, or having an extended lifespan as not being ordinary, when it comes to Netherese Arcanists, since that was normalcy for the Netherese of that status). Nothing says that Shadow Weave magic, which he was using by that point, is empowered in the Plane of Shadows. There's no reason his person would be any more powerful in the Plane of Shadows, before becoming a Shade, than he would be on the Prime Material Plane, the Elemental Plane of Air, or anywhere else. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 23:45:21
Aye, nothing explicitly said about him becoming more powerful in the Plane of Shadow. But Telamont was hardly an "ordinary" human. So ordinary limitation of the magic in the Plane of Shadow to non-native beings might not be applicable to the Most High. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 18:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
True, he was not yet a shade then, but he was close to becoming one. Shadow magic corrupts whoever dares cast it (much like what happened to Aeron Merrith). That time, Telamont was hardly a human. His unrivaled mastery of the shadow magic and the gradual transformation/corruption of his body were as good as natural affinity to the Plane of Shadow. Hence, empowered.
-Nothing in Netheril: Empire of Magic says that he was a Shade, or anything other than a mundane Human like all of the other Arcanists of Netheril that we know about. Nothing in Netheril: Empire of Magic says that he was hardly a Human, or anything other than a mundane Human like all of the other Arcanists of Netheril that we know about. Nothing in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Magic of Faerūn says that using the Shadow Weave, over time, turns one into a Shade- it corrupt an individual, yes, but in the sense of moral/physical/emotional corruption; it does not turn them into Shades or creatures with the 'Shadow Creature' template, or anything similar. Nothing Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Magic of Faerūn says anything about the Shadow Weave being empowered in places of shadow, including the Plane of Shadows. All is unsupported conjecture. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 05:56:38
True, he was not yet a shade then, but he was close to becoming one. Shadow magic corrupts whoever dares cast it (much like what happened to Aeron Merrith). That time, Telamont was hardly a human. His unrivaled mastery of the shadow magic and the gradual transformation/corruption of his body were as good as natural affinity to the Plane of Shadow. Hence, empowered. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 18:44:12
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Because he knew that Karsus was an impetuous, mad archwizard. He had respect for his master's genius, but I'm almost certain not much for his attitude.
-That's not answering the question. If, theoretically, the Terraseer approached Telamont with the same information he brought up to Karsus, why does it stand to reason that Telamont, an inferior mage as compared to Karsus and thus an individual with less political clout and responsibility within Netheril, would demand more information from him than Karsus would, and that the Terraseer would divulge this new information?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't buy your skyscraper analogy. That's too simplistic for a scenario this huge. Even if planeshifting his city would cost Telamont so much magical strain, he could easily replenish what he'd lose by the fact alone that his strength would be amplified in the Plane of Shadow. They were not shifting to a random place. Were their destination, say, the Demiplane of Nightmares, they might have suffered a great deal. But it was the Plane of Shadow they were heading to, a place where races with natural affinity to shadows are in their strongest, most powerful condition.
-In what way is the skyscraper analogy faulty? We have a future that is always in motion, so concrete prognostications about it do not exist. The best we have is that the Terraseer's portents told him that 'Mystryl would face her greatest challenge yet', which could mean many things. Would it make sense for a building manager to order the complete evacuation of the people working in his building based on the general notion that there might be something happening in his building that is out of the ordinary? Because, that is basically what Shade did. If you want to assume that Telamont had access to the information the Terraseer shared with Karsus- something not mentioned in canon, but I'll give it to you- why would he risk himself, his subjects, and his city by planeshifting it into the Plane of Shadows based on cryptic information? If you want to say that, since Telamont was a student of Karsus', Karsus shared his plans for casting Karsus' Avatar- this is a little less likely, but for the sake of the argument, let's say he did- why would he risk himself, his subjects, and his city by planeshifting it into the Plane of Shadows when no one had any clue that the spell would trigger so much destruction for Netheril? Couple that with the Terraseer's information, that Mystryl would be facing her greatest challenge yet, and we still don't have much to work with that would lead us to how we know everything went down (quite literally, in Netheril's case).
-Why would Telamont be empowered in the Plane of Shadows? He was not a Shade yet, so standard Human weaknesses and limitations apply. As far as I know, having flipped through the relevant sections in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Magic of Faerūn, the Shadow Weave is not empowered in any particular way on the Plane of Shadows (or in shadows, in general). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 12:24:47
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What the Terraseer told Karsus didn't necessarily have to be the same thing he told Telamont, who would have demanded more than that cryptic one-liner.
-Why would Telamont not accept a cryptic one-liner, while Karsus, his intellectual and political superior, would?
Because he knew that Karsus was an impetuous, mad archwizard. He had respect for his master's genius, but I'm almost certain not much for his attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Again, the sarrukh could have explained it to him, stressing it as a possibility (as opposed to certainty). While it's not completely easy to shift his city to the Plane of Shadow, he could do it with nary a harm to his being. True, the Plane of Shadow was a deadly place, but he and his city weren't devoid of defenses, both magical and mundane. Heh, he might have accepted the Terraseer's warning not just for what it meant but also to have an valid excuse to dabble with shadow magic in the very place where it was in its most powerful state. Casting, experimenting with shadow magic in the Prime is totally different from doing so in the Plane of Shadow.) He could have done it alone (sojourning to the PoS to explore the intricacies of shadow magic), but he was safer if the entire city was there to back him up.
-And again, if there's a theoretical possibility of fire sometime in the future, would you evacuate an entire skyscraper? Even if he trusted the Terraseer- and, that's not even addressing that the Terraseer had no way of knowing that the casting of Karsus' Avatar would end as it did- plenty of factors come into play that seem to stress that it was not a move made casually, but rather, one that seemed almost out of desperation. The Plane of Shadows was relatively newly discovered, and Netherese Planeshift spells still in their research and development. We don't know the direct toll that shifting the city to the Plane of Shadows took on Telamont himself, his sons and other political figures in the city, the general populace of it, or the mythallar itself, but saying that there were very few, I think, is completely baseless. In D&D, Planeshifting oneself is a relatively high level spell. Being able to do the same to a party is an even higher level spell. To do so to an entire city, even if augmented by the city's mythallar, is powerful magic on a grand scale. Magic of that type always has drawbacks, Epic (which it was likely not) or mundane. For Telamont and the ruling elite of Shade at the time, there are/were plenty of alternatives that could have been done at less theoretical cost to themselves/their city, if they somehow had information about a future that had yet to happen.
I don't buy your skyscraper analogy. That's too simplistic for a scenario this huge. Even if planeshifting his city would cost Telamont so much magical strain, he could easily replenish what he'd lose by the fact alone that his strength would be amplified in the Plane of Shadow. They were not shifting to a random place. Were their destination, say, the Demiplane of Nightmares, they might have suffered a great deal. But it was the Plane of Shadow they were heading to, a place where races with natural affinity to shadows are in their strongest, most powerful condition. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 18:28:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What the Terraseer told Karsus didn't necessarily have to be the same thing he told Telamont, who would have demanded more than that cryptic one-liner.
-Why would Telamont not accept a cryptic one-liner, while Karsus, his intellectual and political superior, would?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Again, the sarrukh could have explained it to him, stressing it as a possibility (as opposed to certainty). While it's not completely easy to shift his city to the Plane of Shadow, he could do it with nary a harm to his being. True, the Plane of Shadow was a deadly place, but he and his city weren't devoid of defenses, both magical and mundane. Heh, he might have accepted the Terraseer's warning not just for what it meant but also to have an valid excuse to dabble with shadow magic in the very place where it was in its most powerful state. Casting, experimenting with shadow magic in the Prime is totally different from doing so in the Plane of Shadow.) He could have done it alone (sojourning to the PoS to explore the intricacies of shadow magic), but he was safer if the entire city was there to back him up.
-And again, if there's a theoretical possibility of fire sometime in the future, would you evacuate an entire skyscraper? Even if he trusted the Terraseer- and, that's not even addressing that the Terraseer had no way of knowing that the casting of Karsus' Avatar would end as it did- plenty of factors come into play that seem to stress that it was not a move made casually, but rather, one that seemed almost out of desperation. The Plane of Shadows was relatively newly discovered, and Netherese Planeshift spells still in their research and development. We don't know the direct toll that shifting the city to the Plane of Shadows took on Telamont himself, his sons and other political figures in the city, the general populace of it, or the mythallar itself, but saying that there were very few, I think, is completely baseless. In D&D, Planeshifting oneself is a relatively high level spell. Being able to do the same to a party is an even higher level spell. To do so to an entire city, even if augmented by the city's mythallar, is powerful magic on a grand scale. Magic of that type always has drawbacks, Epic (which it was likely not) or mundane. For Telamont and the ruling elite of Shade at the time, there are/were plenty of alternatives that could have been done at less theoretical cost to themselves/their city, if they somehow had information about a future that had yet to happen. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 06:39:41
What the Terraseer told Karsus didn't necessarily have to be the same thing he told Telamont, who would have demanded more than that cryptic one-liner. Again, the sarrukh could have explained it to him, stressing it as a possibility (as opposed to certainty). While it's not completely easy to shift his city to the Plane of Shadow, he could do it with nary a harm to his being. True, the Plane of Shadow was a deadly place, but he and his city weren't devoid of defenses, both magical and mundane. Heh, he might have accepted the Terraseer's warning not just for what it meant but also to have an valid excuse to dabble with shadow magic in the very place where it was in its most powerful state. Casting, experimenting with shadow magic in the Prime is totally different from doing so in the Plane of Shadow.) He could have done it alone (sojourning to the PoS to explore the intricacies of shadow magic), but he was safer if the entire city was there to back him up. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 06:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If not Shar, the Terraseer could have forewarned Telamont, explaining it to be more as a possibility (Netheril's Fall, that is) than a certainty. And seeing that there's no harm done if he listened to the Terraseer (since he could shift his city back to the Prime if the disguised sarrukh proved to be wrong), Telamont then teleported Shade to the Demiplane of Shadow. I see the version of teleporting during Netheril's collapse as the historians' attempt to make the event more dramatic than it really was.
-The Plane of Shadows was (and still is, though less so, since they became Shades) a deadly place, and Planeshifting the entire city certainly wasn't something done simply with a snap. Moving it to and from, I don't think, would have been something done lightly. And, as such, vague and cryptic warnings of a future that may or may not happen- remember, all the Terraseer told Karsus was that 'Mystryl would soon be facing her greatest challenge'- even coming from someone as 'respected' as the Terraseer, I don't think that warrants the complete Planeshifting of the city. That'd be like issuing a mandatory evacuating order for a 50 story skyscraper because someone in the executive bathroom thought he smelled something that could have been smoke. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 02:33:11
If not Shar, the Terraseer could have forewarned Telamont, explaining it to be more as a possibility (Netheril's Fall, that is) than a certainty. And seeing that there's no harm done if he listened to the Terraseer (since he could shift his city back to the Prime if the disguised sarrukh proved to be wrong), Telamont then teleported Shade to the Demiplane of Shadow. I see the version of teleporting during Netheril's collapse as the historians' attempt to make the event more dramatic than it really was. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 18:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
LK,
Perhaps the divination of Shar (who was instrumental to Shade's survival) didn't extend to the time of Netheril's Fall. That is, if she did bother to cast any.
-It's a possibility, but again, my point is that Mystryl killing herself to prevent Karsus access from the Weave was a scenario nobody really could have seen coming. Karsus casting the spell? Perhaps. Mystryl killing herself, causing magic to stop existing for a minute or so? A lot less. Shar has access to secrets, and is a powerful deity herself, but the future is always in motion, and I don't think that she would have been able to forsee Mystryl doing what she did- I don't think any mortal or deity would have (especially mortals). The Terraseer, as far as we know, all his divinations revealed to him was that, in the future, Mystryl was going to face her greatest challenge. Maybe he was talking cryptically on purpose, knowing more than he let on, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Has there been any explanation to the publication of these versions other than what I noted above? Or was it just an editorial mistake?
-Editorial mistakes. I don't think I've ever heard any WotC people try to smooth it over. I don't even know if anyone is aware, honestly. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:44:21
Wooly,
While you are not alone in hoping so, there are also a lot of us who hoped otherwise and were glad to see the outcome.
------
LK,
Perhaps the divination of Shar (who was instrumental to Shade's survival) didn't extend to the time of Netheril's Fall. That is, if she did bother to cast any.
Has there been any explanation to the publication of these versions other than what I noted above? Or was it just an editorial mistake? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 22:20:12
It is a bit coincidental, but it works better for me to think that than to think it was a deliberate dodge.
I also prefer the idea that Shade was already gone when the Fall happened, as opposed to somehow hopping out at the last minute. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 18:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always been under the impression that taking the city into the planes was an experiment, not some sort of precaution or anything else. After all, a much easier precaution would have been making a safe landing place and just parking the city. It's hard for a place to fall when it's already on the ground. 
-I find the timing of things too close (either a few days, or a few hours, depending on the other two sources) to my liking for that scenario. Not impossible, of course, but too many things fit too neatly into place, in a situation that really was pretty unpredictable, in terms of what happened. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 18:35:11
I've always been under the impression that taking the city into the planes was an experiment, not some sort of precaution or anything else. After all, a much easier precaution would have been making a safe landing place and just parking the city. It's hard for a place to fall when it's already on the ground. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 17:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Well, Telamont must have deemed it more as a precaution. He was not certain that Netheril would fall or not. But just to be safe in case the former happened, he teleported his city to the Demiplane of Shadow, given that he, with the aid of Shar, could shift it back to the Prime if Netheril survived.
-I don't mean Telamont's intentions. I mean, when. Nobody could have really guessed that Karsus was going to cast Karsus' Avatar, and that it would have such disastrous effects when Mystryl selfishly killed herself to prevent Karsus from getting a hold of the Weave. Before that, we have a general sense of tension and unease because of the lifedrain spell that the Phaerimm had infected Low Netheril with, and Netherese magic failing in isolated instances, but nothing that belayed the idea that people thought imminent catastrophe was coming- especially in High Netheril, where the people were much better off.
-Teleporting the entire city to the Plane of Shadows was a risky preposition. Remember, in Netherese circles, planeshifting, and the Plane of Shadows were still very much new concepts. To use an analogy, it'd be akin to the U.S. shooting nuclear bombs preemptively, because Russia, or China, North Korea, or Pakistan, or whoever else the U.S. government doesn't fully "trust" (for as much as one nation-state can 'trust' another nation-state in international politics), even though that country didn't launch theirs, and wasn't really even saber rattling. It would make more sense for the one side to shoot their missiles after they learned the other side launched theirs. In Netheril, that'd be testing out the plane shift magics on a large scale, and shunting the city to the Plane of Shadows once the endgame was in effect, the endgame being the Weave was gone, because of Mystryl doing what she did when Karsus' Avatar was cast. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 01:54:16
Well, Telamont must have deemed it more as a precaution. He was not certain that Netheril would fall or not. But just to be safe in case the former happened, he teleported his city to the Demiplane of Shadow, given that he, with the aid of Shar, could shift it back to the Prime if Netheril survived. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 13:27:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And as pointed out before, the three versions can be considered as three different records of three different scribes/historians. However, the generally accepted version, I guess, is that Shade teleported to the Demiplane of Shadow mere hours before the Fall.
-I don't think so. I prefer to take the sequence from Paul Kemp's story in Realms of Shadow as the 'more accurate' chronology. There are too many coincidences for me to believe that Lord Shadow was going to "test" shifting his entire enclave wholesale a few days or hours or so before Karsus cast the spell, and High Netheril fell to it's doom- especially since nobody knew ahead of time the sequence of events that would unfold that would cause High Netheril to fall. Even if you want to believe the lore hinted in the 3e 'Superadventure' trilogy, that Karsus' development of the spell was egged on in secret by Shar (which I don't like, but it is what it is), there are still way too many variables to be able to conclude that Shar would alert her followers on the Shade enclave of imminent doom (and, mind you, at the time, Shar wasn't the solitary deity worshiped in the city, either) requiring Telamont to move the city. I find it more likely that the short story is closer to the truth- Telamont was studying and 'developing' the necessary magical technology/methods to shift the city wholesale, since he was a student of the planes and things of that nature, and the Fall forced his hand, and he was just lucky that it worked. Shar causing the Shade Enclave to shift ahead of time, there are too many variables, I think, that make it unbelievable. There would be no knowing that High Netheril would fall beforehand- how could someone know what Mystryl would do what she did?
-It is annoying that there are three canon versions of the same event, though. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 07:08:55
And as pointed out before, the three versions can be considered as three different records of three different scribes/historians. However, the generally accepted version, I guess, is that Shade teleported to the Demiplane of Shadow mere hours before the Fall. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 21:25:41
quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael
can either of you remember off the top of your head the other places those versions occur? i thought the Kemp version was decently ambiguous enough that it'd probably fit with other versions, but now i'm curious. if you could point me in the direction of other "kerflooey day" handlings, i'd appreciate it.
--ok, i just checked the timeline i've been using, and i'm going to guess the end of 'dangerous games' & the realms of the arcane story 'when even sky cities fall'? does that sound right? Again, thanks!
There's one version in the Netheril boxed set, a short story that gives a different version, and a third version in, IIRC, Magic of Faerūn. Basically, Shade either went into Shadow the day before Netheril's fall, hours before Netheril's fall, or right as Netheril was falling. |
| zenmichael |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 20:53:28
can either of you remember off the top of your head the other places those versions occur? i thought the Kemp version was decently ambiguous enough that it'd probably fit with other versions, but now i'm curious. if you could point me in the direction of other "kerflooey day" handlings, i'd appreciate it.
--ok, i just checked the timeline i've been using, and i'm going to guess the end of 'dangerous games' & the realms of the arcane story 'when even sky cities fall'? does that sound right? Again, thanks! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 20:35:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael
...(you get to see Shade on the day everything went kerflooey).
-One version of about three canon ones.
Indeed. One of the many things I dislike about Shade is the fact that we have three different versions of what happened to it on that day. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 18:03:26
quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael
...(you get to see Shade on the day everything went kerflooey).
-One version of about three canon ones. |
| zenmichael |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 16:52:46
Also worth mentioning is CRUCIBLE: THE TRIAL OF CYRIC THE MAD. Malik's back story is pretty much half of the plot there, and it's an awesome book.
Also everything I've read so far from REALMS OF SHADOW has been good. Oddly, Darksword is the weakest of the first four stories or so (all I've read at this point). Paul Kemp's story is HIGHLY recommended, as is the first one (Lisa Smedman, I think?). Though Paul Kemp's is really the only one that approaches "plot-ish" (you get to see Shade on the day everything went kerflooey). |
| hawkytom |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 10:19:37
Thanks for the input guys! I've already read The Parched and Veiled Dragon, I can't remember the harper involved at the moment, but I do remember Ruha...cool!! I'll be sure to check out the other novels you guys have mentioned so far, again thanks for your knowledge. :) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 04:21:53
Continuum from Realms of War anthology would give you a glimpse into the life of the Tanthuls, and reveals the secret that is important to one of the subplots in Twilight War. You can read it before or after TW. |
| jornan |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 03:37:43
You might want to read The Parched Sea and its sequel The Veiled Dragon. Some main characters crop up in RAW although they are not of the netherese variety. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 03:19:30
The rest of the stories in Realms of Shadow provide interesting information on Netheril. The first story is particularly dealing mostly on the old Netheril and the creation of a shadow mythallar.
Realms of the Arcane has some Netheril-related stories as well.
Read The Nether Scroll, too. It's about the search for one of Netheril's most powerful artifacts.
And don't miss The Twilight War trilogy by Paul S. Kemp. Shade has a lot of 'screen time' in that series. |
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