| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caolin |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 07:56:00
I always wondered what went into the decision to include or not include maps inside FR novels. Do any insiders know what the reasons for this? I for one always enjoy it when some sort of map is there. They always draw me in a whole lot more than those without a map. The thought occurred to be as I was reading Sandstorm, which has no map. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 14:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
NOT A REASON: There was an RPG map. The RPG maps are full-color these days. To put one in a novel, it would have to be printed in grayscale. Grayscale printing costs more. Plus, it would look kind of shabby at the size of a paperback. You pretty much have to have a cartographer redraw it. A novel can sometimes use the map out of another novel, but then you get into the details of the cartographer's contract, which I know nothing about, and it would probably be tacky to talk about anyway.
 Really? I must admit I find that quite suprising, certainly in the later 3ed stuff, the maps were full color, but I've seen several (3ed) novels sport maps that were borrowed from older 2ed RPG sources. Interesting. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 01:31:40
I really love maps in books! The more the better, the more detailed the better!
From what I have seen, those maps in FR novels are not always coordinated with FR authors, I just recall the city map in one of Kemp's Twilight War novels that showed a city that was not even features in the novel. Anyhow, I love maps, so the more the better! 
I still remember how the maps in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit held me for hours... awesome stuff! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:56:45
Hey, Tolkien and Greenwood published maps of their worlds. IMHO, brilliant descriptions by the most skilled authors can go a long way, but they just can't beat a decent map. |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:25:50
Oops! I missed this too.
quote:
Although, I don't necessarily agree with the "the author was so good the book doesn't need a map" argument. I think a map will always add to the immersion value regardless of how good a mental picture the author paints. But that's just my 2 cents.
Oh, I agree. It's only when you're deciding why this book and not that book that you might take that into consideration. You would never go, "Oh, Christopher is so good, don't even worry about a map!" It would be more of a "Well, Christopher is better than Erin at setting orientation, so if we can only do one, do Erin's*." Then again, it might be, "Erin is only in one city whereas Christopher's book ranges all over Calimshan. His location is more confusing. Do that one." (This is where things get messy and nuanced).
This doesn't actually happen as often as including it as an example makes it sound. Much like the author refusing a map or being so late the map gets cancelled--these are not things I've ever seen happen, but they are things that...started to happen, but were ultimately resolved. They could happen, they haven't to my knowledge. At WotC, I certainly had books where I went back and said, "No, really. We need to find money for a map. This is a very confusing location and a map will help."
* I think setting orientation is one of my weaker points as a writer (I'm biased, but who isn't?). Unfortunately, Brimstone Angels was in the same proto-series as the other two books, so you may all be stuck drawing maps on napkins. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:04:47
Thanx for responding so quickly (and comprehensively), EME. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 17:12:31
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
BTW, Chris, I STILL cannot find a copy of Sandstorm in the book stores. They are flying off the shelves here! 
That's what I like to hear! |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 16:44:01
Well good! :)
Although I had to come back this morning and add I was sorely mistaken in my late-night posting: Unbroken Chain does not have a map. :P I guess I remember that "fight" but I forgot losing it. I definitely made a lot of sketches though--they must have gone to the D&Di mapper in the end.
Which probably explains why Sandstorm doesn't have a map--originally the two books were in the same series. I agree it would have been nice--but I think Christopher does a good job of describing the location.
BTW, Chris, I STILL cannot find a copy of Sandstorm in the book stores. They are flying off the shelves here! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 11:55:29
Yeah EME, I enjoyed reading that as well. Good insight on the biz, so to speak. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 09:51:28
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
Ahem. (By the way, I warned you about the boring bits)
First thing, this is all possible to work out. It's not secret stuff.
Caolin is right: The vast majority of it is budgeting. Book publishing is done on pretty tight margins everywhere (because it was essentially designed by lunatics). Decisions about books in general and work-for-hire books in particular are often made with an eye toward NOT creating failure points. You don't want to spend too much on the book itself because your margins get tighter and readers don't tend to like it much when you pass those costs on to them.
The biggest line item for a map? You guessed right, Arik: Paying the cartographer. You can flip through the novels and see WotC uses a handful of contracted cartographers, who do a nice job if you ask me.
Which leads to the other limitation: Time! The editor need to send a map order (a description of what the map needs to look like) to the art director around six to nine months before the book comes out. That gives them time to schedule a cartographer and it gives the editor and the author time to review the results before everything has to get typeset and sent along to a printer.
WHY A BOOK DOESN'T GET A MAP:
1. Budgeting. A book needs great text, an eye-catching cover, solid binding, good quality printing, and distribution. But it doesn't "need" a map. So if the numbers don't look solid enough, people in charge of the budget may not approve spending money on a map. This is much better than spending less money on the author.
2. Style. The book is in a series. Books 1,2, & 4 didn't need maps. Book 3 would do better with one. But to maintain the series style (and the set budget) the map is skipped.
3. Changes. The book was one thing, now it's something new. Maybe the setting changed, maybe the placement changed, maybe the schedule bumped the book up, maybe the author just up and refused to talk about maps (it could happen...). It's too late to get a map underway, so no map.
4. No need. Personally, I think there are some authors so good at describing their setting that the map is unnecessary icing. Normally, at the time you're deciding which books get maps, you don't know whether this is the case, but it's a possible reason. Especially if you're making sure other books get money for maps.
5. Hardcover. It's obvious that hardcovers get no maps, while paperbacks get them. And I think you can all work out that, yes, the intent is to give the lowly paperback a little premium content.
6. Schedule issues: If everyone's on target, you get the first draft a year before the book comes out. This often doesn't happen. If it REALLY doesn't happen for one reason or another, it's possible the map might get scrapped.
7. Lazy editor...Okay that's not true. But I did really hate writing map orders. They are just not as interesting as other parts of the process.
NOT A REASON: Page count. By the time the editor knows the author has gone over their word count (and therefore page count), the map has already been paid for. The map WILL be in there, and there are plenty of editorial and typesetting tricks to squeeze a page out of the text.
WHY A BOOK GETS A MAP:
1. Established sales. People DO like maps, and if you don't have to worry about the numbers, throw one in!
2. Need. Sometimes authors are not very good at describing setting (we all have different skills). Soemtimes authors have a really confusing location. Again, this is less likely. A more likely need is the fact that the area in the novel is new and a focus of the Brand. Which leads to...
3. The editor argued for it for other reasons. This is the only remotely secret bit: Unbroken Chain has a map pretty much because D&D Insider was planning to do a series on Ikemmu, and I wanted to make sure nobody crossed wires. In this sort of case, it's worth it to lobby hard and make sure that everything matches. But...
NOT A REASON: There was an RPG map. The RPG maps are full-color these days. To put one in a novel, it would have to be printed in grayscale. Grayscale printing costs more. Plus, it would look kind of shabby at the size of a paperback. You pretty much have to have a cartographer redraw it. A novel can sometimes use the map out of another novel, but then you get into the details of the cartographer's contract, which I know nothing about, and it would probably be tacky to talk about anyway.
My favorite maps, incidentally, are in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts by James P. Davis and Sentinelspire by Mark Sehestedt. And I had nothing to do with it, but I think the map in Depths of Madness is a pretty nice example of how to do a map that's not obvious.
Now that wasn't boring at all....seriously! I love it when we get a peak behind the curtain. Although, I don't necessarily agree with the "the author was so good the book doesn't need a map" argument. I think a map will always add to the immersion value regardless of how good a mental picture the author paints. But that's just my 2 cents. Thanks for the break down. |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 05:35:06
Ahem. (By the way, I warned you about the boring bits)
First thing, this is all possible to work out. It's not secret stuff.
Caolin is right: The vast majority of it is budgeting. Book publishing is done on pretty tight margins everywhere (because it was essentially designed by lunatics). Decisions about books in general and work-for-hire books in particular are often made with an eye toward NOT creating failure points. You don't want to spend too much on the book itself because your margins get tighter and readers don't tend to like it much when you pass those costs on to them.
The biggest line item for a map? You guessed right, Arik: Paying the cartographer. You can flip through the novels and see WotC uses a handful of contracted cartographers, who do a nice job if you ask me.
Which leads to the other limitation: Time! The editor need to send a map order (a description of what the map needs to look like) to the art director around six to nine months before the book comes out. That gives them time to schedule a cartographer and it gives the editor and the author time to review the results before everything has to get typeset and sent along to a printer.
WHY A BOOK DOESN'T GET A MAP:
1. Budgeting. A book needs great text, an eye-catching cover, solid binding, good quality printing, and distribution. But it doesn't "need" a map. So if the numbers don't look solid enough, people in charge of the budget may not approve spending money on a map. This is much better than spending less money on the author.
2. Style. The book is in a series. Books 1,2, & 4 didn't need maps. Book 3 would do better with one. But to maintain the series style (and the set budget) the map is skipped.
3. Changes. The book was one thing, now it's something new. Maybe the setting changed, maybe the placement changed, maybe the schedule bumped the book up, maybe the author just up and refused to talk about maps (it could happen...). It's too late to get a map underway, so no map.
4. No need. Personally, I think there are some authors so good at describing their setting that the map is unnecessary icing. Normally, at the time you're deciding which books get maps, you don't know whether this is the case, but it's a possible reason. Especially if you're making sure other books get money for maps.
5. Hardcover. It's obvious that hardcovers get no maps, while paperbacks get them. And I think you can all work out that, yes, the intent is to give the lowly paperback a little premium content.
6. Schedule issues: If everyone's on target, you get the first draft a year before the book comes out. This often doesn't happen. If it REALLY doesn't happen for one reason or another, it's possible the map might get scrapped.
7. Lazy editor...Okay that's not true. But I did really hate writing map orders. They are just not as interesting as other parts of the process.
NOT A REASON: Page count. By the time the editor knows the author has gone over their word count (and therefore page count), the map has already been paid for. The map WILL be in there, and there are plenty of editorial and typesetting tricks to squeeze a page out of the text.
WHY A BOOK GETS A MAP:
1. Established sales. People DO like maps, and if you don't have to worry about the numbers, throw one in!
2. Need. Sometimes authors are not very good at describing setting (we all have different skills). Soemtimes authors have a really confusing location. Again, this is less likely. A more likely need is the fact that the area in the novel is new and a focus of the Brand. Which leads to...
3. The editor argued for it for other reasons. This is the only remotely secret bit: Unbroken Chain has a map pretty much because D&D Insider was planning to do a series on Ikemmu, and I wanted to make sure nobody crossed wires. In this sort of case, it's worth it to lobby hard and make sure that everything matches. But...
NOT A REASON: There was an RPG map. The RPG maps are full-color these days. To put one in a novel, it would have to be printed in grayscale. Grayscale printing costs more. Plus, it would look kind of shabby at the size of a paperback. You pretty much have to have a cartographer redraw it. A novel can sometimes use the map out of another novel, but then you get into the details of the cartographer's contract, which I know nothing about, and it would probably be tacky to talk about anyway.
My favorite maps, incidentally, are in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts by James P. Davis and Sentinelspire by Mark Sehestedt. And I had nothing to do with it, but I think the map in Depths of Madness is a pretty nice example of how to do a map that's not obvious.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:21:57
EME — I'm curious about the process. At least the decision-making elements in the process.
I assume that the costs have nothing to do with adding a page or two to the book, ink and paper are cheap. But the costs involved in the design/artwork (whether from scratch or adapted from elsewhere) might be significant. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
Generally, I avoid these discussions for obvious reasons,:) but are you guys curious about this process?
I'll warn you: at least 70% of it is pretty dull.
I wouldn't mind know what the reasoning is for including or not including a map in a novel. I've always assumed that it has something to do with accounting. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:44:20
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I loved finding new maps and information in novels; I'm thinking of the colour map in the first edition of Crown of Fire, and the map of Evereska in one of the Archwizards books.
Indeed. 'Twas especially welcoming when the novels were set in places of the Realms that hadn't otherwise received much attention in previously published Realmslore. Finding a map to a new region of the Realms was always a hoot! |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:29:53
Generally, I avoid these discussions for obvious reasons,:) but are you guys curious about this process?
I'll warn you: at least 70% of it is pretty dull. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:15:38
I say maps for every novel!
Rather a city or a nation, I like to orient the action visually with a map. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:45:38
I loved finding new maps and information in novels; I'm thinking of the colour map in the first edition of Crown of Fire, and the map of Evereska in one of the Archwizards books. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:15:40
It seems that maps have typically been omitted from the hardcover editions of RAS's works, but they tend to show up more often in the paperbacks and collector's edition omnibuses. Maybe WOTC is trying to make the paperbacks somehow enticing to fans who have already invested the big bucks in the hardcovers? |
| Caolin |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:14:08
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
If it's helpful at all, I can tell you that the entire action of Sandstorm takes place (roughly) in a triangle having corners at the eastern Tethyrian city of Saradush, at Almraiven, and at Calimport.
More specifically, the story starts in a canyon in the northern Omlarandin Mountains near the headwaters of the Idolflow, then moves across land to the village of Argentor in the western fringe of the Spires of Mir (with a sidelight in what was once the village of Ithal Pass). The characters then wind up in Almraiven, from whence they travel across the Plain of Stone Spiders and the desert to Calimport. Hopefully that helps you visualize things a little better.
Excellent, thank you for the incite Chris. I am only in the first few chapters and I have been wondering where exactly they are at. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 19:30:14
I find myself often referring to enclosed maps when reading about regions in the Realms (or other fantasy) which aren't familiar. Foreign place names and story events which move between these places are sometimes difficult to relate unless some kind of map reference can place them in context.
A compelling argument for the inclusion of maps is that they add depth when introducing the setting to noobs. In my youngest days I very much appreciated maps which tracked the progress of characters and events in the story. I think Middle Earth would have lost much appeal if Tolkien hadn't produced maps. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 18:02:49
I don't know how the decision is officially made as regards a map or no.
The way *I* would do it and the way I think might be logical:
1) Some stories particularly lend themselves to having a map, while some don't. For instance, the Waterdeep novels don't all need maps of Waterdeep. Those maps already exist (in many forms). Novels that take place in a specific, centralized area (like one particular city) don't necessarily need maps, and novels where it's purposefully not clear where it's taking place can be spoiled by maps.
That said, my two novels that *do* have maps (which are Depths of Madness and the forthcoming Shadowbane) take place in an unspecified location (DoM) and are limited to a city (SB). So . . . maybe not.
I think DoM's map was particularly cool, as it was more of a 3d artist's take on the somewhat surreal landscape of the novel.
Not sure what SB's map will look like--I haven't seen the finished product--but I suspect it will resemble Luskan maps that are previously established in the FRCG and FRPG.
2) Limited resources, as noted. If you can get an existing map and relabel it, great. If you have the extra money in your budget for a map, great. If you don't have time to coordinate it or can't find an artist to do the map, then you're not going to have a map.
Cheers |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 17:21:23
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Don't they go on word count more than page count though? I guess they might be too cheap to give an extra page for a map sometimes (I don't know). But for example, most FR novels are around the 310 range of pages (some go beyond 330), wheras Christopher's I recall seeing it be in the late 200s (IIRC), so would that mean they wanted to make more profit by not adding a page to this smaller than normal novel for a map?
As far as writing goes, yes, word count dominates but when it comes to what is inbetween the covers beyond the text it may depend on the binding and printing arrangements. It only one factor and wether or not it is a factor is probably a case by case thing.
The other aspect of course is that original art costs money. Maps may not be considered important enough to justify the expense in paying an artist/cartographer to create one. |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 16:55:42
I do recall that the only reason Son of Thunder has a map was because they could cheaply relabel an existing one. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 16:02:56
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I wish I could explain the decision to put one in or leave it out, but honestly, I have no idea. All I know is that you can't assume you're going to get one, so if it's vital that the reader understand something about the geography, make sure you put that information in the text.
I guess its editorial then. Maybe different editors have different beliefs regarding map or no map? |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 15:55:23
I wish I could explain the decision to put one in or leave it out, but honestly, I have no idea. All I know is that you can't assume you're going to get one, so if it's vital that the reader understand something about the geography, make sure you put that information in the text. |
| DBG |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 14:58:51
I for one would like maps in all novels, it helps with the setting and makes a good reference point. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 13:52:27
Don't they go on word count more than page count though? I guess they might be too cheap to give an extra page for a map sometimes (I don't know). But for example, most FR novels are around the 310 range of pages (some go beyond 330), wheras Christopher's I recall seeing it be in the late 200s (IIRC), so would that mean they wanted to make more profit by not adding a page to this smaller than normal novel for a map?
|
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 13:46:54
If it's helpful at all, I can tell you that the entire action of Sandstorm takes place (roughly) in a triangle having corners at the eastern Tethyrian city of Saradush, at Almraiven, and at Calimport.
More specifically, the story starts in a canyon in the northern Omlarandin Mountains near the headwaters of the Idolflow, then moves across land to the village of Argentor in the western fringe of the Spires of Mir (with a sidelight in what was once the village of Ithal Pass). The characters then wind up in Almraiven, from whence they travel across the Plain of Stone Spiders and the desert to Calimport. Hopefully that helps you visualize things a little better.
|
| BlackAce |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 12:58:22
I can't speak from any real knowledge base but I will say a lot of the maps used, especially during 2ed, were ported over from the RPG. It might be down to wether there is a map available and a jugement call on wether or not the editor or publisher feels the story's locations feature prominently enough that one should be included. Page count might even be a factor. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 12:55:26
I also agree, they should have put one in Sandstorm. In fact, I think every single realms novel should have had a map included. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 12:47:12
Alas, I have no insight into how the "map or no map" decisions get made, and can only add that my wife for one strongly agrees with Caolin in wishing there was one in Sandstorm.
For what it's worth, the maps I used in writing the book were those in the 2E Lands of Fate and Empires of the Shining Sea boxed sets. |
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