| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 17 Oct 2003 : 21:44:42
Being an outspoken proponent to have most of Greenwood's characters stabbed in the head and torched on a pyre, it pains me to ask this question...yet I must...
Has anyone read the third in Shandril's Saga? I've been wondering if perhaps Greenwood has changed his style in a more reader-friendly, dialogue-friendly way....
In other words, is it different than the previous two? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 01 Nov 2003 : 02:42:54
Arion,I for one am proud of you for trying to be open minded and work things out with Faraer.I know others were involved but it started with you two.I guess this is none of my business but since I think so very much of both of you,I really am glad to see the disagreement end.
I look forward to reading posts made by both of you and increasing my knowledge for having done so. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 16:11:35
Really guys, I don't know...
Faraer said: No accounting for taste, quite. I don't agree with the 'your criticism means nothing until you're published' argument, but I didn't like your (however jocular) comments about wanting characters stabbed or coming up with 'Faerūn' and ripping off Tolkein (sic), either, as you can understand.
I don't get what you mean by my "criticism argument"...I think that you are actually agreeing with me...sort of......and I'm sorry that I offended by my "stabbed" comments...but we are talking about non-existent characters aren't we? I understand...most folk would have hissy fits if someone said that Drizzt deserved to be disemboweled...
As I said previously, this thread has brought such a tremendous uproar of opposition from BOTH sides of the argument, I may as well buckle down and read E in H, despite my better judgement...
as I must admit that in my younger days I simply hated the Avatar Trilogy...after looking at it a second time nearly a decade later, I have come to love it...I suppose I can give the man who gave us Faerun no less.
There. Now I can take my armor off?  |
| Malcolm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2003 : 03:47:54
Arion, I think you should read Elminster In Hell. I'm not saying you'll like it, but (as Faraer and Lady A have posted) I don't think any reasonable person can say Ed Greenwood hasn't shown us Elminster in a lot of different ways (including desperate, scared, weak, and getting thoroughly beaten up) after they've read that book. Really. Borrow a copy from a public library if you don't want to spend the cash.
Now, I know Ed used to read these forums when they first started up, so he might end up reading this, eventually. So why not tell him exactly what you think is bad/weak about specific novels he's written, as if he WAS reading everything? He might find it useful. And no, I'm NOT being snide or sarcastic here. Every opinion counts. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 22:55:02
No accounting for taste, quite. I don't agree with the 'your criticism means nothing until you're published' argument, but I didn't like your (however jocular) comments about wanting characters stabbed or coming up with 'Faerūn' and ripping off Tolkein (sic), either, as you can understand.
I don't know who PL and Malcolm are, but they don't know who I am, so that's OK! Feel free to share hair-tearing stories.
Arion, since you don't like Elminster and apparently don't like Ed's novels, I don't recommend you read Elminster in Hell! But the 'review' you refer to is very wide of the mark: alongside Cormyr and Evermeet, EiH is easily the most ambitious Realms novel to have been published, a psychological battle played out with memories (which works something like an epistolary novel) which move as a thematic rather than a linear narrative. Like The Spine of the World it goes out on a limb and some have disliked it for that reason; and while I have my own criticisms, it shows so much of the Realms (so partly avoiding the problem of overexposing Elminster since, remember, Ed never wanted to use him as a protagonist) and El's internalities are so, I can unambiguously say, dedicatedly done that I'm quite out of sympathy with anyone who dislikes it. Elminster in Hell is the proof, the plain flowering, of Ed's thematic use of the character as an avatar of the combination of love and knowledge which began those years ago. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 22:27:08
To Greenwood's credit, no. Someone on the site actually (Rad?) posted a review saying that E in H was a lot of explosions and fire and had very little else to go on......looking at the previous works, I decided to skip E in H....
I don't know...if the good Lady Arivia thinks its worth it, maybe it deserves a look or two... |
| Arivia |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 21:24:27
Broken...desperate...signs of mortality. Have you read Elminster in Hell, Arion? |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 19:23:38
Well, I must admit that I enjoyed Elminster at the Mage Fair quite a bit. I still can't abide by Elminster as a character, however, but I've already been down that road.
As far as Lurker's question, I didn't really have a chance to think about the proposed arguments...most of which I hadn't seen until last night.....
In response to the now-infamous "curve-ball" remark I made...yes, as with ANY Forgotten Realms character, Elminster has been in some very unconventional situations (it's not every day that you go to hell, battle a lich, or act like a woman, etc.). However, the character has remained stagnant since he became the mage we know today.
IMHO, I think that a "curve ball" might include Elminster having to perhaps reshape his attitudes, change his personality a bit, grow as a character, as ALL people do - even near-omnipotent archmages. So far, according to the Faerun supplement (page 7), Elminster's "changes" have been limited to "starting to seem truly old, prone to long reveries...(etc)." However, this does not seem to me to be a great deal different than the Elminster we knew in Crown of Fire or any other of his previous novels. I don't think that having strange adventures in a setting based on strange places is a new, interesting idea - it's a requirement. Archmage Elminster has always been Archmage Elminster - with very little evidence to the contrary.....I always thought that his relationship to the Simbul was fairly interesting - but still, we saw a lot of beard-scratching and pipe-smoking...not much new there...
Not to say that it's Greenwood's job to impress me and me alone, but I'd love to see Elminster become desparate(not just worried - the guy barely flinched after he toasted that lich in Magefair), or scared, or irate, or broken, or tired, or perhaps exhibit some signs of mortality.....because he's human - a Chosen, but human nonetheless...
But as I've said time and time again, that's just me....
And Lurker - why haven't you spoken up until now?
|
| Alaundo |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 18:34:56
Well Met
WHO DARES SPEAK ILL OF OUR GREAT CREATOR!?!  
This is a very interesting subject and is sure to raise many different viewpoints, please attempt to avoid hurting anyones feelings and try to stay calm in the matter.... I almost had to cut my way into this room with a knife! |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 18:30:42
quote:
Originally posted by Longtime Lurker
I would be another like yourself, ArionElenim: one of those who plonks down cash for FR novels. I happen to like Greenwood's books (because I'm not expecting great classics), but that's neither here nor there.
What IS important to me, as someone who's been reading these forums for years, is that you chide others for their behavior, but I notice you haven't responded to a single one of their ARGUMENTS. So, care to?
I think the last poster's list of "curves" sorta leaves you in the dust, but I'd like to hear a polite, intelligent refutation, or answers to anything else.
BTW, if Greenwood's so lousy, how is it that he keeps popping up with short stories in non-WotC, non-FR, non-D&D fiction anthologies? Just asking...
To answer your last point, Ed Greenwood is very well respected due to his creation of the Realms and thus other publishers would love to have him onboard to produce some work for them. I think Ed is a great bloke, I met him once and it made my week\month\year!! I could spend days just listening to him telling me tales of the Realms and filling me in on Realmslore..... but I just find his novels quite hard-going. I think its a bit unfair to gang up on ArionElenim, its merely an opinion on someones writing style...and furthermore, nobody who critisizes an author is saying they themselves could do better at all.... I think Microsoft Windows sucks.....but I couldnt write a better OS myself |
| Longtime Lurker |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 15:36:44
I would be another like yourself, ArionElenim: one of those who plonks down cash for FR novels. I happen to like Greenwood's books (because I'm not expecting great classics), but that's neither here nor there.
What IS important to me, as someone who's been reading these forums for years, is that you chide others for their behavior, but I notice you haven't responded to a single one of their ARGUMENTS. So, care to?
I think the last poster's list of "curves" sorta leaves you in the dust, but I'd like to hear a polite, intelligent refutation, or answers to anything else.
BTW, if Greenwood's so lousy, how is it that he keeps popping up with short stories in non-WotC, non-FR, non-D&D fiction anthologies? Just asking... |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 06:32:50
Okay, people...let's watch the tone here. This is a free format - and your little threat to sic Greenwood himself on me for stating my own opinion about his novels will not force me to be cowed by yourselves or anyone else.....may I suggest you keep this format impersonal and keep things pleasant here...we're here to discuss NOVELS...not INDIVIDUALS.
Besides, I'd be rather honored to meet the man who made the Realms....regardless of how I feel about his writing...
I am sure that Greenwood is a wonderful person....but I am not alone in saying the man's financial success is NOT a factor in what you folks have called "genius".
And as far as who I am - you are correct. Not a single dollar has passed my way through my writing endeavors....however, I am something that even you, my dear, dear fellow sages must agree gives me a small deal of clout (or at least should) amongst the all-powerful creators of Faerun - I am the meek, average, dedicated reader of WOTC novels who plunks down his $25 everytime a new novel gets published.
I won't even respond to your "ArionElenim is acting as usual" comments - anyone who has spent more than a few fleeting weeks here knows how ignorant that was.
I didn't mean to stir up the shadows by starting this thread...I considered it closed weeks ago when Rad answered my question wholly. And as for Lackey and Malcolm (whose names I see here for the first time, I believe), on behalf of Candlekeep, welcome to the forums. I sincerely hope that your visit here will not be limited to my meager chastisement.
Come on, folks. We're here to have fun. I don't need the Harpers sicced on me to remind us all of that. |
| A Publishing Lackey |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 04:57:08
Well, said, Malcolm. About the beer, too.
There's just one more thing I'd like to add to this: ArionElenim, you say Ed's Elminster is a little thin, and he should "throw us a curve" with the old wizard just once.
Well, now, let's see: he's had El as both a man and a woman, all four basic D&D character classes, revealed the depths of his insanity, had him playacting the role of a young alluring woman, had him lose a lot of fights and make bad mistakes, and even admit that he'd done so and apologize! (Doesn't sound much like Gandalf to me.) He's had El sharing his mind with a devil while we watch, he's had El be all gentle and caring, even to evil characters, as well as leering and gruff and sardonic . . .
So exactly how many more curves do you want the man to throw, to please you?
|
| Malcolm |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 04:32:29
Hello, P-L! Beer's on me at next con, okay?
I'd also like to add one more thing, while we're all setting ArionElenim straight.
Your contention, A-E, that EG didn't create all that much of the Realms, but was wise enough to "surround himself with talent" (to do it for him, I presume?), is FLAT wrong. The WotC editors and lots of freelancers consult with him daily with suggestions for THEIR novels, Realms game products written by others, and future directions for the Realms. Help which he gives for free, BTW. So the next time you're trashing EG because you don't happen to like his writing style (again, fair enough), stick to the facts. Or would you like me to ask Ed to register on the forums and you can be rude to him directly? |
| A Publishing Lackey |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 04:22:42
As always, Faraer courteously and eloquently gets things right. I know Ed Greenwood values your opinions and appreciates your enjoyment of the Realms. So do I.
As for ArionElenim, as usual he ignores the very good and accurate points both Faraer and Malcolm made, in his thundering haste to skewer bad, bad Greenwood. I know Malcolm is right, and I'm also in a position to know some sales figures and therefore that Old Ed must be a lot better at pleasing readers than ArionElenim gives him credit for. I can add one thing to this discussion: Ed is perhaps the most obedient-to-editors of the longtime TSR authors: he changes plots and writing styles to order. The death at the end of Hand, for instance, was assigned before he started writing.
So, ArionElenim, I await your first published masterpiece of a fantasy novel. I suspect, knowing Ed, that he'll be far more generous with your work than you've been with his.
Tsk, tsk. and so on. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 01:55:20
Faraer, my good nemesis, you have to agree that Elminster's characterization is at least a LITTLE thin...if Greenwood were to throw a curve ball every now and then with the Sage of Shadowdale, I wouldn't have much to say....it's just that Elminster will always be crochety, always stroke his beard and be very stereotypically wizard-like...he is never to the contrary...
And besides, there is no accounting for taste, so mayhaps we should just agree to disagree and call a truce, yes? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 23:06:26
I think that because of Ed's standing, and the prominence of his creations in the world of D&D (and those shouldn't be confused!), some people feel the need to parley a conflict of taste into something to reproach him for, and then there's that thing where people keep reading an author's books but profess to dislike them.
You can't make 'cookie-cutter' stick. They're manifestly unlike modern commercial fantasy, unlike other Forgotten Realms books, and unlike each other (Crown of Fire, Elminster in Hell, Cormyr: A Novel and The Kingless Land are different kinds of novels). And (re the rest of your post) you're talking as if Ed has created one wizard character and not hundreds.
Anyway, I look forward to Shandril's return. |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 20:10:03
I myself happen to like EG so I tell you that although I like Arion very much and respect his opinion I do not really agree with all he has to say about Ed.I do however say in his defence that what he has
written so far is very nice compared to what I have seen written in several other forums(some being WotC)and I know people personally that feel the same way.I still hold my own opinion but don't make it seem like he is alone because I could not believe how many people looked down on EG and many times I felt like I was the one alone in my views. |
| Malcolm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 17:58:34
Well, ArionE, you're entitled to your opinion about Ed Greenwood's works, but many of your comments reveal a complete ignorance of how TSR and now WotC publishing works.
First off, authors DO NOT write their own "about the author" entries. Sorry. If you find them ego-dripping, it's not because of EG.
Secondly, no author gets to choose what the art depictions of their characters are, or how they change (many authors can tell you about their fights over this). So EG didn't make El look like Gandalf or anyone else.
Thirdly, EG, like everyone else, gets edited. Sometimes heavily. You seem to think Greenwood "controls" the Realms as you see them. Hahaha, and so on.
Fourthly, having been privy to some of the editorial tearing-of-the-hair over EG's novels, no one views them as "cookie-cutter" except, well, you and other posters. They tend to have too many characters for editorial liking...the same great characters that everyone else makes Realms novels bestsellers to read about, that you seem to think other authors created. (?)
Standing by for your no doubt insightful responses... |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 22:05:20
quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
Wow, Faraer...are you Greenwood in disguise or something?
 Hmmmm. Takes chainmail shirt off and puts referee shirt on. steps in the ring Ok I want a clean debate here. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 19:22:02
Again,I have to disagree. Gandalf, not Merlin, originated the look which Elminster has come to be known by - long beard, pointy hat, crochety nature - these are all things that were not present in our culture's older mythos. Merlin was usually portrayed as a younger, more "pagan" being (feathers, et al).
Show the average non-Realms fan a picture of Elminster and ask who it is...the times I have attempted this, the response is always the same - "Gandalf". I think that even FR and thus, Greenwood, has realized this and gave Elminster a makeover in 3.0 - no pointy hat, no staff, smaller beard....while I like this Elminster a bit more, he is still VERY much akin to old Gandalf (smoking the pipe, manipulative rather than active, etc.).It is not as if Greenwood did not have options for a more creative, less cliched wizard when he dreamt him up.
On top of which, it is very hard for me to see a great deal of "genius" in Greenwood's cookie-cutter style novels. Greenwood LOVES archetypes, the most despicable of which I find to be the overuse of monolithically evil characters - a style which is extremely unrealistic, even for fantasy.
Your right, Faraer, my opinion on what a "good" novel should be does not constitute a need for the entire industry to completely uproot itself from its cherished traditions. However, I see no harm in encouraging authors (Greenwood not being the least of them) to expand their stories a bit further...to push the borders of the Realms beyond a very tunnel-vision approach to what a "wizard should be"....
I think that this is the reason Salvatore has found so much success.
Then again, Salvatore's a very rich man now, Greenwood has sold millions of novels...and I haven't......then again, the night is young....
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 18:57:32
To attempt to quote Blackadder, 'If I am, it's not a very good disguise...'
It's precisely because Ed is so modest, and WotC cares more about its brands than its authors, that I sometimes post this stuff that ought to be self-evident. There aren't many geniuses working in the RPG field, and they shouldn't be squandered.
Read the 'cauldron of story' entry in the Encyclopedia of Fantasy. The archetype *precedes* Merlin, Odin, Gandalf, Elminster, and the rest. (What bemuses me is why people seize on that archetype any more than the young virile warrior, the beautiful maiden, the homely mother, etc. -- maybe it's just because of its odd rarity in our culture, and Gandalf is its most prominent manifestation.) Of course Elminster is Gandalflike. But also (quoting Ed),quote:
He owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on.
|
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 17:17:54
Oh, and the Tolkein thing - Elminster is Gandalf. I have looked, and can find hardly a shred of difference between the two. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 17:14:51
Wow, Faraer...are you Greenwood in disguise or something? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 13:56:06
Ed's books have plenty of dialogue, and they aren't simple A-Z stories following one or two characters. They wouldn't be 'better' if they met your particular preferences and were a different type of novel. There's any amount of commercial fiction which meets those requirements, but only one Ed Greenwood. (Both he and I would prefer them much more intrigue- and subplot-heavy but his editors prefer action.) As someone who helps decide what books get published, I assure you that Ed is technically very much of a novel writer (and I'd love to have the opportunity to edit him).
As for finding his author bios 'ego-dripping' and inflating all his man-years of development (the majority of which millions of words languishes with no prospect of publication) into 'coming up with the name "Faerun" and ripping off Tolkein left and right'... For one thing, unlike 3rd- and 4th-generation quest-fantasy Ed's sources are much, much wider than Tolkien, which is part of why his work a legitimate continuation of the swords & sorcery tradition rather than a fantasyland photocopy. |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 07:50:13
quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
No dialogue="dialogue unfriendly". If Greenwood learns to use dialogue and organizes his stories better, I'll read him again.
As I've said before, kudos to Greenwood for creating the Realms and surrounding himself with talent, but (despite his every attempt in every one of his novels to inflate his position - see his ego-dripping "about the author" entries) I'm just not ready to name him author of the century for coming up with the name "Faerun" and ripping off Tolkein left and right....
But thanks for the info on what happens in Hand of Fire...what I'm REALLY waiting for now is the Forgotten Realms 3.5 tome......hopefully some questions will be answered.....
I agree with ArionElenim. Ed Greenwood is my hero, he created the Realms which is a huge part of my life (am i sounding sad yet?! ) and his Realmslore and FR products are fantastic. However, I dont think he is much of a novel writer. The dialog is too heavy and chapters can be a bit tedious and bland and add very little to the overall story.
::looks up to the sky nervously for a bolt of lightening about to strike him down:: |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 05:19:01
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
Pike off berk before the Harpers put you in the Dead book.
Careful, or the high-up man may come calling to your kip .
Not to worry,the high-up man done twigged to me cutter,cause I not only be a Guvner but friend of those that harp as well. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Oct 2003 : 08:10:13
William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
Pike off berk before the Harpers put you in the Dead book.
Careful, or the high-up man may come calling to your kip .
|
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 21 Oct 2003 : 02:43:37
No dialogue="dialogue unfriendly". If Greenwood learns to use dialogue and organizes his stories better, I'll read him again.
As I've said before, kudos to Greenwood for creating the Realms and surrounding himself with talent, but (despite his every attempt in every one of his novels to inflate his position - see his ego-dripping "about the author" entries) I'm just not ready to name him author of the century for coming up with the name "Faerun" and ripping off Tolkein left and right....
But thanks for the info on what happens in Hand of Fire...what I'm REALLY waiting for now is the Forgotten Realms 3.5 tome......hopefully some questions will be answered..... |
| Faraer |
Posted - 20 Oct 2003 : 15:47:20
Until 1987, Ed created every character in the Realms except a few dozen PCs, and since then he's contributed about as many as everyone else put together, all of them worth reading about.
Hand of Fire has, to name a few, gate lore, the name of a hitherto unrevealed major wizard, an important trail drink, and a great deal of merchant and caravan lore. |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 20 Oct 2003 : 05:26:46
Okay umm the Weather for:
WATERDEEP
Marpenoth 19 (Leafall), Second Tenday
Weather
- Temp: Cool
- Wind: NE
Overcast
(5 Day
And now a word from our sponser
|
|
|
