| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| belgarathmth |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 23:58:49
Hello, I'm wanting to get a deeper understanding of FR deities, especially Oghma/Deneir/Milil and Mystra/Azuth/Selune.
I've got the Cleric Quintet, but I'm having a hard time getting through hundreds of pages of what seem to me to be story-filler (no offense to fans), and what I really want is much more concise information and lore about Deneir's quest for the Song of the Universe, how do Oghma and Milil relate, what is the relationship between the Trinity of Knowledge and the Trinity of Magic, etc.
I have more of a philosopher's interest in studying the Forgotten Realms lore than in mere light entertainment. Can someone plese recommend some sources and websites that might help me contemplate the nature of divinity, reality, and magic through Forgotten Realms myths and ideas? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| belgarathmth |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 21:18:25
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Well, a little look at wikipedia says that Pythagoras supposedly thought the whole music of the spheres thing was a mathematical equation for the movement of celestial bodies, and also that he thought that the equations corresponded to notes that could create a sympathy, which sounds more and more like the Song of Deneir. I guess either my instructor was wrong, I learned it wrong, or there are multiple interpretations since pre-Socratic philosophy is full of speculation put together from fragments and later notes.
Thanks for doing some research on it, Idilippy. It is possible for both interpretations to be right, when qualified. It was Pythagoras who discovered the overtone series of fundamental tones using tuned, plucked strings. We know that music was very important to the Greek way of thinking, and that they had instruments and studied music very rigorously; however, we have no idea what it might have sounded like, as they had no written musical notation that we know of.
From one point of view, it is true that what the Greek philosophers and mathematicians meant by the word "music" did not necessarily correspond to the way we think of "music" today - based on their writings, they saw it much more mathematically than we do today.
Probably, your college instructor did not want his or her students to confuse the Greek idea of "Music of the Spheres" with some kind of contemporary piece of music. The Greeks did not partition music into a separate discipline from math the way we do today - to them, everything was interrelated, and all of their metaphysical philosophers were trying to find the absolute smallest unit to which all reality could be reduced, explained, and predicted.
To bring my essay back around on topic for the forum, I suspect that the people who write stories about Deneir's Tome of Harmony (Greenwood, Salvatore, et al) are very well-educated in mythology and philosophy and are not creating their ideas about divinity in the Forgotten Realms ex nihilo. Pointing out the connection is my way of complementing them on having created a coherent mythological system for a role-playing game, for which, through all the people who play it and read stories based on it, it takes on a creative life of its own, profoundly influencing the consciousness of the community of gamers, and it is deserving of serious scholarly attention. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 18:21:54
Well, a little look at wikipedia says that Pythagoras supposedly thought the whole music of the spheres thing was a mathematical equation for the movement of celestial bodies, and also that he thought that the equations corresponded to notes that could create a sympathy, which sounds more and more like the Song of Deneir. I guess either my instructor was wrong, I learned it wrong, or there are multiple interpretations since pre-Socratic philosophy is full of speculation put together from fragments and later notes. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 18:12:05
@belgarathmth, no background in music for me, just in philosophy, so I could have been completely wrong. Still, I remember studying Pythagoras and learning about the whole "Music of the Spheres" thing, which my instructor made clear(on a test question no less) was about mathematical ratios and not about actual played or sung music. Perhaps the instructor had interpreted it wrong though, I just figured he had it right, but if music is math-in-sound, which I can believe and I'm sure you'd know much better than I would, I could see how the music of the spheres could be considered the mathematical proofs and ratios as well as the music that those ratios can create. Thanks for your insight, I'll have to look into the philosophy more clearly now and see if I misinterpreted it or see what other interpretations people have. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 09:28:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
...and replaced some of them with novel characters who were, I think, less interesting, and certainly less convincing divinities.
Such a subtle way of saying I barely stopped myself from tearing the pages. But wait... I think I really did... Though just two pages of the second book, Tantras , to remind myself how wonderful it was and happy I was that I read it. (I would have thrown it myself had one of my friends not asked me to borrow it. Borrow? I remember myself saying. You can keep it forever.)
The problem is not the demystification itself, but the characters who are absolutely far from the gods we know, and more like bickering teenagers. |
| belgarathmth |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 02:47:57
@ The Sage: I'm definitely interested in reading yours and Master Greenwood's thoughts about music and the divinities of the realms. Can you post some links?
@idilippy: I would be curious about your own background in music before I get too argumentative. Music IS Math-in-Sound. There is a post in a related thread that I found by typing "divinity" into the forum search engine. It was called "Create Your Own Deity" or something like that, and they were talking about Music of the Spheres as it relates to divinity, and there was a link to some YouTube tracks where someone had tried to actually convert electromagnetic signatures of bodies in our own solar system into sound-representations, thus reinforcing the human psychological archetype of "Music of the Spheres". (Can someone help me out with a cross-referencing link to the other thread? I apologize for my limited computer abilities.)
The idea that music contains a vital link to the "Grand Unifying Theory" of the Universe, the "Master Equation" sought by contemporary physics, is of great interest and importance to me. One of Einstein's most famous quotes is that "I see the Universe in terms of music." I really think that Salvatore and perhaps Master Greenwood have been aware of this kind of thinking as they imagined the Realms deities of Knowledge. I suspect that it is no coincidence that they have placed Music within the same trinity of divine portfolios as Knowledge in general, creating my "Trinity" of deities that promote the written word, symbols and glyphs, search for truth and understanding, drama, visual arts, and music all under the same basic divine umbrella.
What could be a more fascinating and culturally relevant set of "glyphs" in real life than modern musical notation? Equally fascinating and relevant are the equations and symbols of math, chemistry, and physics. I believe that mathematical and musical symbolic notation of abstract ultimate "Truth" are the closest thing that we get in real life to "magic".
Which also brings me to my other point of interest about Realms lore, and that is the relationship between the "Trinity of Knowledge", as I call it, and the "Trinity of Magic", as I call it - Selune, Mystra, and Azuth. I wonder why we need both trinities? Are they not really governing the same portfolios? Or perhaps, they govern different approaches to what Deneir sees as "Universal Harmony". The "Knowledge" approach would correspond to the path to Enlightenment based on intellect, reason, practice, discipline, etc., while the "Magic" approach would correpond to the path to Enlightenment based on intuiton, devotion, emotion ("trust your feelings"), improvisation, creativity, free association, etc.
The polarity I am attempting to establish is not perfectly represented here - one could see almost the exact same dialectic between wizards and sorcerers, whom one assumes are all dependent upon the Weave and therefore the conflicts within Azuth and Mystra.
<Ahem>, well, I'm going around in circles intellectually, obviously. But for some reason, I get extreme pleasure from doing so. And I love cats. So maybe, Sharess is the goddess for me, in the end, because do we not naturally follow whatever is pleasurable? ;) |
| idilippy |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 01:18:13
I read the song of Deneir thing a little differently, I thought it was an adaption of the ancient philosophical belief called Music of the Spheres, where the "music" is more of a mathematical concept dealing with the ratios of the movements of celestial bodies, or something like that, and wasn't supposed to mean literal music.
I thought that would fit with Deneir's portfolio well, and figured it's inclusion was a direct allusion to the ancient philosophy, and that the "singing" involved is more like reciting mathematical equations than the type of creative singing I see Milil promoting. Still, that's all just my opinion I just wondered if anyone else had the same thoughts? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 23:39:32
quote:
Originally posted by belgarathmth
Hmm, this is all very interesting. I had been thinking of trying to track down a copy of the Avatar series, but based on the comments I'm seeing, it doesn't sound very insightful. That "bickering teenagers" comment especially worries me, because I am looking for some mature comparative mythology and deep thought about divinity.
The "Avatar Crisis" was an attempt to create a big, well-publicized Realms publishing 'event', tieing in with the publication of 2nd edition AD&D [a minor rules change in the scheme of things], just two years after the first Realms campaign set. It removed effective, long-standing gods [for reasons no one involved seems to remember] and replaced some of them with novel characters who were, I think, less interesting, and certainly less convincing divinities. It demystified the gods by manifesting them all at once -- which is in principle a decent gambit if you feature the event directly in your campaign, but if not, you're left with the demystification, which is seen in the people who perceive Faerūn's gods as being interventionist [and Faerūn as a setting of gigantic crises] although the Time of Troubles was supposed to be exceptional.
quote:
Since I am a musician in real life, I am especially interested in the role of music within what I call "the Trinity of Knowledge", Oghma, Deneir, and Milil. With Milil, the importance of music is obvious, but I found one source that says Oghma is also an accomplished musician, and Deneir's treasured "Song of the Universe" also expresses its ideas in terms of music.
As a part-time musician myself, I've *something* of an interest in Realms music also. In fact, it's my favourite part of the Realmslore. I'll see what I can dig up for you in terms of references I've recorded about this.
quote:
Milil's role in music seems to me to be oriented towards the popular - he strikes me as being a sort of "rock star of the gods", and he probably favors improvisatory music, mostly. Classical music, pure instrumental music, written musical notation, music history, musicology, music theory, and such, seem to me that they would be much more likely to fall under the portfolios of Deneir and Oghma.
I've some further thoughts on this, coupled with private input from Ed, that you might have some interest in.
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 22:24:28
Realms religion is a charming bricolage rather than a well-formed artistic whole (look to Glorantha for that). I think it works well locally, in practice, like in the Fafhrd and Mouser stories, less so in theoretical theological totality. Do read "Down-to-Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54, if you haven't, to see how Ed put the pantheon together. The Avatar trilogy is no worse than you'd expect from its origin: creative chaos (the 'Avatar Vortex') at TSR, setting elements roped in to serve plot roles; and the creative tension it set up certainly influenced later treatment of deities in Realmslore. Part of that tension is with the Realms' central humanism, which is interested above all in people rather than more abstract symbols; I'm sure there's more fiction to recommend that I'm blanking on, but there's more insight in a sourcebook like Prayers from the Faithful than almost any novel. I do like the various emblematically suggestive appearances of Azuth. |
| belgarathmth |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 17:29:39
Hmm, this is all very interesting. I had been thinking of trying to track down a copy of the Avatar series, but based on the comments I'm seeing, it doesn't sound very insightful. That "bickering teenagers" comment especially worries me, because I am looking for some mature comparative mythology and deep thought about divinity.
I really think that Forgotten Realms at its best has something to contribute to the field, and I would like to see work being done by young scholars at universities actually trying to get real-life professors of comparative mythology to take a serious look at our materials.
I've been giving the Cleric Quintet another chance, having read a few more chapters in it over the past couple of nights. Some of the passages where Cadderly is studying and contemplating the Tome of Universal Harmony have some good food for thought.
Since I am a musician in real life, I am especially interested in the role of music within what I call "the Trinity of Knowledge", Oghma, Deneir, and Milil. With Milil, the importance of music is obvious, but I found one source that says Oghma is also an accomplished musician, and Deneir's treasured "Song of the Universe" also expresses its ideas in terms of music.
Milil's role in music seems to me to be oriented towards the popular - he strikes me as being a sort of "rock star of the gods", and he probably favors improvisatory music, mostly. Classical music, pure instrumental music, written musical notation, music history, musicology, music theory, and such, seem to me that they would be much more likely to fall under the portfolios of Deneir and Oghma.
Anyway, I actually spend large amounts of time staring at books, computer screens, and blankly into space, thinking about stuff like this. I am very interested in any insights you guys have. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 15:20:41
It's much better, less annoying, if how the 'thing' presents itself and is experienced by someone bears significant likeness (even just a little) to 'the-thing-in-itself.' In the Elminster series, I always feel that's the case with El and Mystra. But the question is, does the way the gods presented themselves and were experienced by mortals in the Avatar series bear significant similarity to Ed's descriptions of them? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 14:17:54
This is an old sore point. At the time the Avatar trilogy was written, no one except Ed and Jeff Grubb had much idea of the Realms, so not much in them is very accurate. Then in Prince of Lies, the gods were dramatized for the sake of a novel. It was like a thought experiment: what if, instead of how things are in the Realms proper, where the gods are vastly-bigger-than-human entities beyond mortal comprehension, and everything 'known' about them in Faerūn is clashing claims of biased priests (as Ed stresses each time the subject comes up), the gods were their avatars, superpowered humanoid beings with graspable psychological motives? But somewhere along the line some people at TSR/Wizards seemed to decide this was how the gods actually were, at least some of the time, and this is how they're treated in Spellplague-lore.
Even when reading Ed's own fiction, like the Elminster novels, keep in mind, for instance, that this is how Mystra presents herself to and is experienced by one mortal man, not the thing-in-itself. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 07:38:26
Your so-called artistic value and content are all the same thing. The 'inappropriateness' of the gods' depiction begs heavy consideration. AFAIK, most of the gods in the series bear little resemblance to the gods that Ed described and defined. What's the use of reading books that feature the characters you look for yet make them much too different from the 'established lore' on those characters? Only to get annoyed? Hmm, a motivating factor indeed. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 06:34:32
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The gods' avatars are hardly 'appropriate' representations of the gods themselves. And though the first three novels in the series 'deal with the gods,' they are being depicted like some bickering teenagers who happen to have immense power. And note that a 'recommendation' is a personal matter. Hence, do not insinuate that I SHOULD recommend it too because you think it's right.
It's not a matter of a recommendation of the novel as a great piece of art, it's me telling him that a) the books include the gods, b) the portrayal may or may not be accurate, and c) I found them a good read, regardless. We're not making recommendations on the artistic value of the novels; we're making recommendations on the content of the novels. Which is objective, not subjective, and, as such, not generally debatable. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 06:02:21
The gods' avatars are hardly 'appropriate' representations of the gods themselves. And though the first three novels in the series 'deal with the gods,' they are being depicted like some bickering teenagers who happen to have immense power. And note that a 'recommendation' is a personal matter. Hence, do not insinuate that I SHOULD recommend it too because you think it's right. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 05:27:43
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
The most extensive coverage of the gods (novel wise) comes in the Avatar series, though the accuracy of the portrayals is considered suspect by more than a few, IIRC. If you happen upon them, though (as they're no longer in print), I certainly found them a good read (especially Prince of Lies).
I'm not sure if I would recommend the ENTIRE Avatar series. The only book I like in that rather disappointing series is The Crucible.
All of the novels deal with the gods. Ergo, I recommend the whole thing. It's not an issue of whether certain scribes like or dislike the novels themselves, it is an issue of the physical, "real", subject matter of the novel. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:40:02
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
The most extensive coverage of the gods (novel wise) comes in the Avatar series, though the accuracy of the portrayals is considered suspect by more than a few, IIRC. If you happen upon them, though (as they're no longer in print), I certainly found them a good read (especially Prince of Lies).
I'm not sure if I would recommend the ENTIRE Avatar series. The only book I like in that rather disappointing series is The Crucible. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 03:25:06
The most extensive coverage of the gods (novel wise) comes in the Avatar series, though the accuracy of the portrayals is considered suspect by more than a few, IIRC. If you happen upon them, though (as they're no longer in print), I certainly found them a good read (especially Prince of Lies). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 00:19:57
I also suggest you read the novels where the gods you're interested in appeared, as you'll see them 'in action,' though mostly they work through their agents. But you'll get to know them more and their plans, or the schemes they wanted the mortals to think they're engineering. |
| belgarathmth |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 15:37:42
Thanks, Sage, I'll check it out. Perhaps the best way to see philosophically-minded, comparative mythology types of essays is to just search the forums for regular posts. I guess I could search "divinity" as you suggest, and also names of the deities I'm interested in. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 00:38:26
There are very few novels which outright deal with the nature of divinity and such.
Your best bet in such matters, would be to purchase/peruse the relevant sections of such 2e tomes as Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. Additionally, I'd recommend a search of specific topics, like "divinity" and other similar terms, through the 'So Saith Ed' archive [see the link in my signature] for some pertinent info from the Bearded One. |
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