| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sith_Lord_Drizzt |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 22:22:36
This thread is for 'The Ghost King'. Be warned! Possible spoilers ahead.
I won't post any spoilers... YET, but feel free to discuss if you've already read it.
Now...some of my opinions...All I can say is WOW! I thought that this was one of Salvatore's better novels. He did a great job tying things up. I enjoyed this novel a lot. I just couldn't put it down!
What are your thoughts about this novel? Again, please feel free to discuss thoroughly.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 20 Jan 2010 : 06:48:42
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Both characters suffer horribly for the entire book, and by the end, some sort of release is definitely called for.
This sounds like my wife describing our sex life.
Ouch!
Then again, that might sound like your wife describing your sex life, too...  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 23:58:34
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Both characters suffer horribly for the entire book, and by the end, some sort of release is definitely called for.
This sounds like my wife describing our sex life.
 |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 19:35:59
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Oh yeah, this was a great novel. I was saddened to see Cattie-Brie go before getting to see her really progress as a spellcaster, but it was inevitable.
I am relieved they didn't keep her around with some corney explanation of becoming a wizard to prolong her life. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 19:34:45
Here, I will say something controversial, but before I do I will post a few bits of information to help put my comment into perspective.
A) I grew up on Drizzt books.
B) Drizzt was my favorite hero for so many years and Entreri my favorite villain.
C) For 10 years I was glued to all RAS books and would even try to pursuade bookstore clerks to release the book to me early (NEVER WORKED!)
Having said all of that... IMO an RAS novel is like watching Rambo. Great action, fun, but the story and dialogue seems goofy and unrealistic.
Now later on I reluctantly read the Harry Potter series... and was utterly surprised by the absolute depth of the story and the complete unique identity and real moral issues confronted by the leading characters. To me it was on a whole different level. It was like turning off Rambo and watching Pulp Fiction or the Godfather.
The depth of each character is amazing. From learning about the full background of Voldemort and how anything that he doesn't value he doesn't understand... such as love. How his disdain for things he doesn't value or respect lead to his ultimate downfall.
The depth of Dumbledore and how the events of his early life-which remain unknown until Book 7-are what shaped him to be on the path he chose, a teacher rather than the Minister as he does not trust power. How his fear of loss for those he sees as weaker then himself causes him to make overly protective of Harry. How Snape's early life-revealed at the end-explained completely everything that happened up to that point which had previously remained mysterious.
Some of this may have happened in RAS's books to a much more shallow degree... but also much of it seemed like it wasn't pre-planned but rather something he tried to fit in later so he had material to work with on the new book. Such as Jarlaxle's relationship with Zak, or Cattie-brie's feelings for Drizzt, or Wulfgar's back from the dead revival, and so much more. It seems that the story is more put together out of necessity than it was established in great depth and detail with foreknowledge of how the story will go.
There are things we learn about in Book 7 of the Potter series that explained events in Book 1. Such as what Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised. He saw his sister and parents alive. Yet it is clear that Rowling knew THEN when writing that scene EXACTLY what Dumbledore saw. That character was FULLY ALIVE in her mind when writing that very first book along with his entire history. yet in that scene in the first book we were left wondering what he really saw, since obviously what he told Harry about thick woolen socks wasn't accurate. Glimpses of who Albus Dumbdore was came up in bits every single book yet you never knew who he was and none of it came together until Book 7 when you the story was revealed to you.
The level of planning and the depth of the characters were FAR beyond anything I have read in an RAS book. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not making this a roast session. It's been weighing on my mind when I think of RAS books because I think it COULD BE written with this much detail and careful planning. I read once a Q&A where RAS said he read a little of the first Potter book but put it down because it wasn't his style. That's too bad, I think he could have added to his own writing skill by reading it.
I guess what I am getting at is that as passionate as RAS may be, I don't get the impression from his books and interviews that he is comfortable with change. He repeats characters and villains like mad, characters "die" but come back, we go one the same quest over and over and play in the same setting. This is why I am looking forward to a fresh start with this series. I am hoping RAS is finally willing and able to take this in a new direction with much more depth. As good as he does fighting scenes they aren't necessary for him to have a good book. I don't need to read about a swordfight every two chapters. REAL dialogue and story and mystery will be a great addition to his repetoire IMO, and could revive this series credibility in my book. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 18:38:28
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Both characters suffer horribly for the entire book, and by the end, some sort of release is definitely called for.
This sounds like my wife describing our sex life. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 18:35:52
Personally, I am relieved, glad, no... EXCITED that Catti-brie is gone. She was too close to "perfect" from a moral perspective and rarely did anything wrong or irrational. I could not identify with her AT ALL. No one I know is this level headed and moral.
Drizzt's story was long overdue for an overhaul IMO, and changing the party and scenery is a good start. It has been the same stuff rehashed again and again for far too long. The same skin-deep moral dilemnas, the same rehashed villains who you thought vanquished only to return for the umpteenth time. Using Crenshinibon AGAIN! Seriously? Why not just use the drow themselves another time? Or how about make Entreri track Drizzt down again? Or how about we find another way to tie in Cadderly, Bregan D'aerthe... or maybe watch Drizzt confront his own insecure demons again?
I loved the Drizzt stories but it has long since lost it's "freshness". While I still enjoy characters like Entreri, Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Athrogate, Bruenor, and Pwent, IMO it's passed time for this series to provide something new. I could live with certain characters being brought back, but overall something new would be nice.
I would love to see Drizzt with a new party. Hopefully RAS comes up with something better for Drizzt than chumming it up with Bruenor Jr and the great grand children of Danica and Cadderly, but the way RAS has been recycling the same characters over and over I seriously expect this. Certainly there have been flashes of new characters here and there; Le'lorinel, Athrogate, etc... and those were great ideas, I am just ready for something new on a grander more permanent scale. I honestly feel like each new Drizzt book I am reading is the same one as the previous novel.
I am sure my critical analysis is going to draw a lot of ire, but this is my opinion. I am not saying it is better than yours, I am just saying I am ready for a breath of fresh air, and I can't imagine how RAS gets excited about writing these oh-so-similar stories again and again. If I have to read another Drizzt EMO episode that only a female in his life can put into perspective for him I might shoot myself. (Dramatic exaggeration of course)
What I'd like to see would be Drizzt in a new place and develop new friendships with deep characters who are established in their own backstory over a series of novels. I know this won't happen but even seeing Drizzt meet and share an adventure with other established characters would be nice-but that is not RAS's style. Thus I will settle for some well developed new characters with an intensive backstory and unique personality to come to know Drizzt in the future. New lands, new foes, new setting would be cool as well. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 02:17:07
I did a bookflog (book + feelings + log = bookflog) of the Ghost King as I read it. It would take up far too much space to repost it all here and the last time I checked there wasn't a spot in the Book Club, so I'll just post the links and repost my final review here.
Prologue-Chapter 4: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/6824.html
Chapters 5-9: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/7066.html
Chapters 10-15: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/7190.html
Chapters 16-20: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/7564.html
Chapters 21-25: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/7755.html
Chapters 26-Epilogue: http://lady-fellshot.livejournal.com/7943.html
And my review:
As with the other two books of the Transitions trilogy, I have to say that The Ghost King is a bit of a mixed bag. I've mentioned before that I am not what you would call a "Drizzt fan" by any stretch of the imagination. I was also told very specifically that I shouldn't read this book. Unfortunately, I am a glutton for punishment some of the time.
The plot can be boiled down to thus: Hephaestus and company want revenge on everyone who hurt them and the Spellplague is going on. Jarlaxle and Cadderly beware. Jarlaxle has the sensible idea of consulting with Cadderly (who doesn't like him) though Drizzt. Mayhem happens. Yes, there are major character deaths. If you are familiar with the current state of the Forgotten Realms, then they shouldn't be particularly surprising either.
So, my first big problem was the villainous triumvirate of Hephaestus the red dragon, Yharaskrik the mostly dead illithid and Crenshibon, the Crystal Shard. When these characters were last seen, two had been destroyed and the other had been blinded. Dragonfire does burn just about everything after all. I was not thrilled with the character recycling and remained rather "meh" about it throughout the book. I'm sorry, but when antagonists are killed off, I like them to stay that way. Doing otherwise seems like a cheap plot device and the spellplague filled that role pretty well. Besides, none of these antagonists were especially interesting the first time around (or the second or the third time). The revenge motive was also not especially intriguing either. I would have liked the illithid to win more in the internal power struggles, just to change things up a bit. It just seems like I had to choose between having permanently inscrutable motives or simplistic ones. Unfortunately, neither of them work especially well with me.
Drizzt hasn't really got any better for me since the last book. He's still as blind as a bat to the motives of the people around him and I still skip every other sentence of his fight scenes as "irrelevant action candy." Catti-Brie has been demoted to a "damsel in distress" non-character, which suited me just fine. I've never been overly fond of Cadderly Bonaduce the super priest and wasn't given any particular reason to like him in this book either. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer religious characters not to have the proverbial ear of their favored deity. I think it's more interesting that way.
Like the other two Transitions books, the last few chapters felt really rushed to me. I'm beginning to wonder if this is deliberate. In any case, the montage of scenes is disjointed to the point that I was confused as to who exactly had gone where until they popped out of the woodwork. An extra thirty pages at the end to deal with the aftermath would not be amiss with this reader.
By far the best characters of the book are Jarlaxle and any of the dwarves. Jarlaxle seemed like one of the most tolerant and reasonable fellows through the whole of the book, even when people were trying to kill him. Also, he was made much more vulnerable and less of a walking deus ex machina with a questionable fashion sense than in previous books and stories. His methods were made a little more transparent. I hope that his motives are eventually revealed a bit more too. It is becoming more and more apparent to this reader that Jarlaxle acts like a concerned uncle when around Drizzt and the other Companions of the Hall and less like a ruthless drow mercenary. It's an interesting development and I really wish that it was expanded more.
All the dwarven characters were varying levels of awesomeness. Athrogate has been somewhat annoying to me in the past, but putting him in the same room as Thibbledorf Pwent is comedic fun for all. Bruenor is such a great grounding personality to all the weird stuff that might go on around him. It was rather interesting to see him act as a father figure to Drizzt for the last few chapters of the book.
Strangely enough, the aspect of the story that was least connected to the main line of narrative events was one of my favorites. Temerle, Rorick and Hanaleisa Bonaduce's attempt to rescue some of the residents of Carradoon was rather fun to read. It was as if someone wanted to add an homage to Dawn of the Dead in the middle of a high fantasy book and almost nothing these characters did had any impact on the main story at all. However, it was decently written, pretty entertaining to read and the characters were not horrible, although they could have used a little more depth, particularly since this was the first time they were used as adult characters rather than little children. Pikel Bouldershoulder is quite frequently entertaining, if inarticulate. I liked how they kept themselves going despite their uncertainty and liked all of them by the end of the book.
When I first started this trek through the Transitions books, I was looking for some sort of rekindling of my interest in the Forgotten Realms. I've been rather uninterested in the fourth edition Realms to date and decided on a last ditch effort to dip my toes in the water as it were. Regarding the setting, I can only give a resounding "perhaps later" with due regrets for the Realms that were. For further books by Mr. Salvatore in the Realms, my answer is a firm "maybe." It is extremely clear that Drizzt is unlikely to develop into a character I want to read about further. I can only hope that a few of the minor characters that I like so much more, will become more important to future narrative lines and become more interesting as they progress.
And what about this book, you ask, gentle reader? Was it worth it? Everything you hoped it would be? Considering that I started the book expecting to laugh like an evil overlord then yes, I suppose it was worth it despite its flaws. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 16:21:12
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Physically, yeah, Drizzt is the shiznit for rizzle now. He's been upgraded ridiculously, like that. No argument.
[...]
I seem to recall a few instances where Drizzt was caught without those blades. No matter what sort of enchantment they bear now, it only takes a villain finding the right time, and the right place.
Bob just clarified <on his boards> that as far as he is concerned, those power-up enchantments from Cadderly and some mysterious divine source (Deneir?) were only supposed to be temporary spells. They were apparently ad hoc upgrades, for this battle only, like a cleric's healing spell or a potion of strength.
This really makes me wonder where the recent DDI article (see Diffan's comments <over here>) reportedly got the idea that Drizzt's blades have a special affinity for shadow creatures, then? If Cadderly's enchantments don't explain it, then what? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 14:40:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is, however, unbelievable that this orc would be the favored champion of a deity who has never espoused such goals, or that in 100 years' time, this orc could turn a very brutal and warlike race into a bunch of farmers who leave their neighbors alone. It just isn't plausible for me.
Well, for one, remember that the Kingdom of Many-Arrows (KOMA) is not Smurf Village. Obould is not Papa Smurf, and his orcs are only kinda-sorta under control.
In TOK, orc shamans conspire with the orc-ogres to possibly overthrow Obould's rule.
In TGK, a group of orcs jokes with relish to Jarlaxle about Catti-brie being deranged and the effect of her condition on the dwarves' morale.
And in the Prologue to TOK, Obould VI worries about the fact that there have been civil wars and ongoing raids by his people upon his neighbors over the last century.
The FRCG seems to support this notion of an only tenuous peace.
(EDIT: I just noticed that the FRCG also says that it is Obould XVII who rules KOMA in 4E, as opposed to Obould VI. So either there was a miscommunication there, or an awful lot of "Oboulds" bite the dust between the time of TOK's Prologue {~1472 DR?} and the current time of the FRCG {1479 DR}!)
I'm envisioning an orc settlement something like the shanty town in the movie "District 9", with the Prauns. Some are good, but some are thugs. There's certainly more order and hiearchy in KOMA. But chaos is just under the surface, either way.
My big beef is how the followers of Moradin would warm up to pig-faces like this. Clan Battlehammer apparently buckled under the threat of annihilation by Obould's forces, rather than fight 'til the bitter end. Bruenor put appeasement over justice. Does that at all sound right? What does Moradin think?
According to the FRCG, Gruumsh still favors brutality and conquest, and Moradin still favors courage and stubborness. So I don't know how to make heads or tails of any of this. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 14:14:39
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Beast: Given what you know about the Characters Bob created is it truly that unbelievable that an Orc could reform...not to the point of a complete one eighty as to his views on other races and becoming "good" so to speak...but able to evolve past the single-minded conquest driven thoughts like his other kin have been potryed throughout Forgotten Realms history...and form a kingdom looking out for his people...
No, after Drizzt the goodly drow and Nojheim the goodly goblin, I don't think it's that hard to envision Obould the goodly orc.
I've explained my angst with TOK elsewhere here on the 'Keep, but I'll reiterate:
1) In "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", Obould's forces sacked the towns of Clicking Heels, Shallows, and Nesmé, and also laid siege on Mithral Hall. Those forces killed Generals Dagna and his son Dagnabbit, broke into pieces Tarathiel and Shoudra, paralyzed General Banak, rendered lame Catti-brie, maimed Pikel, and beat Bruenor so badly that even he wanted to die.
And then furthermore in TOK, upstart agents of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows attacked an elven patrol and whacked Innovindil and her pegasus mount, and then hit the dwarves' River Surbrin bridge, even killing some of Alustriel's mages in the process--and subsequently we readers were informed that Obould implicitly and tacitly approved of these latest attacks. What's more, our heroes never received any sign that Obould had distanced himself from or disowned the latest campaign of violence, though Drizzt and Alustriel kept imploring Bruenor to give Obould the benefit of the doubt.
I don't see dwarves--especially Bruenor--forgiving Obould for all of that.
A treaty with orcs under those circumstances falls flat to me because it does not qualify as justice. It's just simply antithetical and incongruent. It doesn't fit.
2) Even if the dwarves were to somehow warm up to pig-faces at some point in time, I still don't see how it could possibly be justified that Obould would be the primary one. He doesn't rate. He forfeited any leniency. His little change of heart was too little, too late, as far as I am concerned.
Let some other would-be goodly orc take up the mantle of ambassador, but let Obould, himself, be sacrificed, as an example to his people of what ought to happen when one breaches the peace like he did.
At the risk of breaking down some sort of "wall" by crossing genres, here, I'll ask if you ever saw the film Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? When the Klingon leader there lay on his deathbed, the victim of some sort of betrayal on the eve of a new era of peace between the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets, he begged Captain Kirk not to let the peace process die with the leader's death. The Klingon Chancellor implored Kirk to find a way to ensure that some good came out of his death.
In a way, I think that the Chancellor knew that he did not come to the peace process with clean hands, and he could see some just propriety in his dying, there. It's almost akin to Moses dying just before making it into the Promised Land.
Obould must die.
3) Forgiving Obould and his orcs' barbarities only serves to enable and empower them, reinforcing their behavior--it doesn't teach them that they were wrong. As Obould VI laments in the Prologue to TOK, decades of goodly folk looking the other way when it comes to his orcs[s'] ongoing crude behavior has only equated to a sort of patronizing humoring and indulgence of his people, rather than any true social advancement. "THBT" Obould had a dream, but Obould VI's reality was not it.
Again, this is not justice.
I liked the sad endings in TPK and TGK because there was a sort of poetic justice to them. Deudermont died and Luskan turned even more fully to "the dark side" because of heroic vainglorious foolhardiness. In TGK, the Companions learned that, contrary to their own publicity, they were not untouchable, and Drizzt admits as much.
But there is nothing poetic or just about making peace with pig-faces who just unleashed the havoc on the North that Obould's forces have done.
At least, I have still yet to see it.
quote:
As far as the first one in this series...I truly believe Bob may have been a little rushed in the novel...and the sudden change of the realms may have thrown a few of his plans out of sync...Didn't the Change to the setting happen on the summer of 07....a few months before TOK?...
Just a thought.....
Perhaps. I have suggested that I might have been able to see the propriety in Bruenor's appeasement of Obould if a little more had been said about the dwarf king feeling desperate and at a loss. Drizzt and Alustriel seemed to feel this way, but since it was Bruenor's decision to be the primary signatory on the treaty, his feelings were the ones that mattered most.
But instead of that, it seemed like all we got was Bruenor going along with Drizzt just because that's what friends do.
And that seems like a pretty thin basis upon which to risk an entire kingdom's safety, and to pass up justice.
Yeah, the ending of TOK felt a little rushed. It just didn't quite convince me. It glares out at me as unsatisfying, unlike the last two books in the mini-series.
quote:
But overall Bob has done what I expected and produced a gret trilogy...I sincerely hope he continues to write for Wizards.....and Beast when you speak with him over on his site please convey that I'm not the only one who feels this way...20 yrs and counting(hopefully)
Sure thing!
Of course, you could always come on over and tell him yourself. He's running not just one, but two interactive threads over there right now: 1) for those who want to discuss TGK with the possibility of spoilers, and 2) one for general Q&A.
And he won't bite. He knows that I didn't like the ending of TOK, and I'm still welcome over there.
Just don't tell him that he or Drizzt suck, and you'll be alright!
EDIT: fixed punctuation |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 16:05:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Beast: Given what you know about the Characters Bob created is it truly that unbelievable that an Orc could reform...not to the point of a complete one eighty as to his views on other races and becoming "good" so to speak...but able to evolve past the single-minded conquest driven thoughts like his other kin have been potryed throughout Forgotten Realms history...and form a kingdom looking out for his people...
In my opinion, it's not unbelievable for an orc to develop in such a manner. It is, however, unbelievable that this orc would be the favored champion of a deity who has never espoused such goals, or that in 100 years' time, this orc could turn a very brutal and warlike race into a bunch of farmers who leave their neighbors alone. It just isn't plausible for me.
Given a charismatic leader and geographic isolation from other races, I can see something like this happening -- but only over the course of centuries, not decades.
I would have found it much more believable if Obould had gone the route of Dukagsh from the Spelljammer setting. Dukagsh and his followers would up on an isolated planet. He whipped his orcs into a highly militaristic race, making them well-trained, driven, articulate, and organized. His followers became the scro, and the scro are pretty freakin' scary when compared to orcs -- among other things, scro like to learn elvish so they can insult elves in their own language while killing them.
A result like that, given the history of orcs in the Realms, seems far more likely to me. Even that, though, still requires time and geographic isolation.
I can explain it perfectly to you Wooly. Obould is a deity, and thus was able to shift from plane to plane. He probably followed Elminster as he visited Ed in our world and while here, discovered WoW. Seeing what was done with orcs there, he merely brought this knowledge back to the reality in which the realms are located, and tasked Obould with doing the same, or similar, as the WoW orcs.
 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 15:18:32
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Beast: Given what you know about the Characters Bob created is it truly that unbelievable that an Orc could reform...not to the point of a complete one eighty as to his views on other races and becoming "good" so to speak...but able to evolve past the single-minded conquest driven thoughts like his other kin have been potryed throughout Forgotten Realms history...and form a kingdom looking out for his people...
In my opinion, it's not unbelievable for an orc to develop in such a manner. It is, however, unbelievable that this orc would be the favored champion of a deity who has never espoused such goals, or that in 100 years' time, this orc could turn a very brutal and warlike race into a bunch of farmers who leave their neighbors alone. It just isn't plausible for me.
Given a charismatic leader and geographic isolation from other races, I can see something like this happening -- but only over the course of centuries, not decades.
I would have found it much more believable if Obould had gone the route of Dukagsh from the Spelljammer setting. Dukagsh and his followers would up on an isolated planet. He whipped his orcs into a highly militaristic race, making them well-trained, driven, articulate, and organized. His followers became the scro, and the scro are pretty freakin' scary when compared to orcs -- among other things, scro like to learn elvish so they can insult elves in their own language while killing them.
A result like that, given the history of orcs in the Realms, seems far more likely to me. Even that, though, still requires time and geographic isolation. |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 08:02:04
Hey I truly liked the last two books in the series and even the first...
Beast: Given what you know about the Characters Bob created is it truly that unbelievable that an Orc could reform...not to the point of a complete one eighty as to his views on other races and becoming "good" so to speak...but able to evolve past the single-minded conquest driven thoughts like his other kin have been potryed throughout Forgotten Realms history...and form a kingdom looking out for his people...
As far as the first one in this series...I truly believe Bob may have been a little rushed in the novel...and the sudden change of the realms may have thrown a few of his plans out of sync...Didn't the Change to the setting happen on the summer of 07....a few months before TOK?...
Just a thought.....
But overall Bob has done what I expected and produced a gret trilogy...I sincerely hope he continues to write for Wizards.....and Beast when you speak with him over on his site please convey that I'm not the only one who feels this way...20 yrs and counting(hopefully) |
| draethe |
Posted - 12 Nov 2009 : 02:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Hmmm...this has me thinking. Maybe a Pwent & Athrogate short story (or full length novel) would be interesting. The former more likely than the latter, but it would be somewhat interesting for sure.
Definately! I would be all for it. Hopefully we get one on what entreri has been up as well. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 13:49:17
Hmmm...this has me thinking. Maybe a Pwent & Athrogate short story (or full length novel) would be interesting. The former more likely than the latter, but it would be somewhat interesting for sure. |
| draethe |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 13:11:22
I loved the book overall. I thought it was a fine conclusion to the series. Having said that i found the deaths hard to take, and naturally its never easy to write something like that. But i found it strange that we lose so much all at once. And i agree with the above it would have been nice to see cattie grow as a spell caster. Regis is the one i sort of get as i think his character had evolved as far as it was going to to go. Still maybe theres more to the story yet. Drizzt asked jaralaxle to find them and i would never put anything past jarlaxle.
Also i agree it was great to have so many powerful characters together and the pairing of athrogate and pwent was inspired. I love crazy dwarf action. It was also great to see jarlaxle more exposed as a character
The whole spell plague thing i dont like. It gives the realms a new sort of kick start i guess but i cant help thinking we're losing more than gaining out of it. Alot of good characters are being ditched. And so far there has been nothing great to replace them. But its early days and we'll see what happens. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 10 Nov 2009 : 17:43:54
Oh yeah, this was a great novel. I was saddened to see Cattie-Brie go before getting to see her really progress as a spellcaster, but it was inevitable. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 10 Nov 2009 : 17:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by Sith_Lord_Drizzt
I always look forward to your analysis Beast. Insightful as always! I too hope to see a darker, more powerful Drizzt!
Hey, thanks! Sometimes I get things right, despite myself.  |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 10 Nov 2009 : 17:08:34
An Entreri story vs the Liches might end up only being a short story perhaps??? I hope not of course. |
| Sith_Lord_Drizzt |
Posted - 09 Nov 2009 : 05:39:44
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Catti brie and Regis die abruptly at the end of the book. Mielikki takes them both to a Pocket heaven that seems to be for the two of them. Not sure if anyone else can ever enter. It annoyed me how this was handled, specifically because it was so abrupt.
[...]
But I still hated the abrupt ending and nonchalant deaths of important characters.
I don't really agree with your description of their deaths as "abrupt" or "nonchalant". In the first chapter where she appears, Cat is essentially spellscarred with the image of a nearly-empty hourglass. This would seem to be a clear indicator that her time was nearly up, from the get-go. It's foreshadowing.
Both characters suffer horribly for the entire book, and by the end, some sort of release is definitely called for. A pay-off for their personal battles throughout all the action of the story was needed, and most likely quite welcome by each character.
The actual death scenes would be more aptly described as dreamlike or ethereal, I'd say, rather than nonchalant. If your spirit is going to be taken away while your body is asleep, I imagine it would probably all be a rather sleepy process, much like described.
It was interesting to see how Cat and Reg initially responded very differently to their death scenes. Cat embraced it happily, while Reg kept wanting to ask questions.
At any rate, it doesn't take long before both have come to accept their fates, and to leave Drizzt, et al, behind.
Who knows how a person really responds during the moment of death, and, if a disembodied spirit can exist, in the days and tendays following? How can we know if a spirit will acquiesce willingly, or only go kicking and screaming?
I thought their deaths were handled well. That aspect didn't bother me, other than regret for the loss of important characters. But it was done well.
The fight scenes were mostly excellent, as well. But I did start getting tired of the endless waves of fleshy gray crawlers. They seemed sufficiently challenging at first, but it didn't take long before they started coming off like the cyclopian baddie fodder in RAS's non-Realms "Crimson Shadow" series: plentiful and dispensible, without any depth. I actually found myself missing the orcs a bit. (And I hate orcs!)
But the heroes' actions during the fights were wonderful. It was a close-quarter battle smorgasbord!
Drizzt's own personal transition from sickening optimist to scarred Hunter was very welcome, here. Reading about that old familiar twinkle in his eye and wicked grin on his face brought some much-needed joy for me, amidst all the other depressing events towards the end. Hopefully, it'll even stick.
And RAS used this personal transition of Drizzt's to once again directly acknowledge that it's been all too easy for people (both in the RW and in the Realms) to over-estimate the power and invincibility of the Companions, even though RAS wants us to keep his characters in perspective better than that. After seemingly lecturing us early on about how a hero always makes the shot when it counts, Drizzt later admits that he got cocky, and now it has reached out and bitten him in the butt.
There's nothing wrong with heroism and courage and determination to do the right thing, no matter what. I blame neither Drizzt here, nor Deudermont in The Pirate King, for their moral codes. I actually applauded them, both. But it is nevertheless fitting to see them each forced to scarf down a piece of humble pie in this mini-series. (I suppose that Bruenor could be said to have done so, too, in The Orc King--but I hate orcs, and I still haven't come to grips with that book's outcome, so I won't say so about Bruenor, just yet, myself.)
Heroism isn't just about making the shot when it counts. More importantly, it's about taking the shot at all, in the face of terrible odds, and even if there turn out to be disastrous results.
It is a great irony of life that disastrous results can help to highlight either foolhardiness or heroism . . . or even both.
I'm not religious personally, so it can get irritating very quickly for me to read about fantasy religions and their doctrines and disputes. But it was kinda cool to listen in on the disagreements at the Spirit Soaring during Deneir's silence. Doubt . . . for lack of a better word . . . is good.
Lastly, I noticed some chronological goofs here and there, when it came to the ages of the human characters. But then, I probably was the only one . . .
All in all, I really liked the "Transitions" mini-series. Now, to be sure, The Orc King remains, for me, a travesty. I still cannot stomach the idea of capitulation to orcs like that. It just doesn't seem right. Maybe if RAS had taken a little more time to demonstrate just how hopeless Bruenor felt, rather than letting Drizzt and Alustriel talk about their hopes, I might've actually bought it.
But contrast that with the last two books, which were darker than the typical Drizzt tale, while still featuring familiar RAS action and strong characterization elements. Their unfortunate endings actually seem somewhat poetic to me.
(This is probably just my bias for dwarves speaking here, but I just don't see Bruenor eating humble pie. Give him Gutbuster, any day!)
I always look forward to your analysis Beast. Insightful as always! I too hope to see a darker, more powerful Drizzt! |
| Sith_Lord_Drizzt |
Posted - 09 Nov 2009 : 05:37:12
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed and I discussed THE GHOST KING recently, because I knew he'd just had lunch with Bob and might well have talked about the book over the reportedly superb meal.
Ed grinned and told me this:
"The food was great, and for the most part - - with book industry people sitting all around the table - - the converse was either personal or about the book tour or current economics and politics. Friends don't spill secrets, so I'll only say this much: we did briefly discuss what happened in GK, and I ask everyone to remember what I always ask them to bear in mind when reading Bob's books: Bob Salvatore is one of the brightest and most passionate men I know, and in his fiction he always plays a long game."
Read into that what you will. I did, and advanced some comments, and Ed merely grinned at me with a twinkle in his eye and replied, "That's for Bob to spill."
love to all,
THO
Thanks THO! I'm definitely intrigued! I'm certainly hoping that this isn't the last we see of Drizzt. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 17:47:20
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Is Pikel still missing his arm, or did Cadderly regenerate him another one? I never liked the fact that he lost his arm in the last Trilogy.
It's still missing, and Pikel seems to be perfectly OK with it.
PAD: Pikel the Amputee Druid
PADD: Pikel the Amputee Dwarven Druid
PADDY: Pikel the Amputee Dwarven Druidic Yahoo
etc.
OK, I'll stop.
I get the feeling that Bob was consciously trying to avoid any overly simplistic solutions to things. Too many people just write his stories off as childish cartoons. Some things need to stick, if that will ever change. There needs to be some permanence and finality to consequences and outcomes, so that Drizzt can actually move on past them, rather than just keep dragging everything (and everyone) right along with him, forevermore. Life can't just be a neverending party, all the time.
We got a little bit of the "party" atmosphere with the ensemble battle scenes. But we also got some sadness.
And I hope it sticks. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 03:11:16
Ed and I discussed THE GHOST KING recently, because I knew he'd just had lunch with Bob and might well have talked about the book over the reportedly superb meal.
Ed grinned and told me this:
"The food was great, and for the most part - - with book industry people sitting all around the table - - the converse was either personal or about the book tour or current economics and politics. Friends don't spill secrets, so I'll only say this much: we did briefly discuss what happened in GK, and I ask everyone to remember what I always ask them to bear in mind when reading Bob's books: Bob Salvatore is one of the brightest and most passionate men I know, and in his fiction he always plays a long game."
Read into that what you will. I did, and advanced some comments, and Ed merely grinned at me with a twinkle in his eye and replied, "That's for Bob to spill."
love to all,
THO |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 02:33:04
When Wulf's death didn't stick before, RAS was blamed. When three goodly peeps get whacked now, RAS gets blamed again. I don't get it.
I think that it is a major point that it took these losses to open Drizzt's eyes and darken his sickening optimism a bit. He's just been too goody-goody, for too long. He needed to take a hit that he couldn't just bounce back from. And like so many action stories have told us, the key was not to actually hit him directly, but those he loved. Hit 'em hard!
My personal question is what has Drizzt really transitioned into? I want to see it stick, and not be forgotten next tenday.
Physically, yeah, Drizzt is the shiznit for rizzle now. He's been upgraded ridiculously, like that. No argument.
But what about his emotions? Is there an Achilles heel in there, beneath all the uber gear and the Hunter facade? Can he truly go postal to the point of wrecklessness? Obviously not in the next 100 years, because of the future glimpses in The Orc King. But at some point down the line, can he be undone like the others were?
I seem to recall a few instances where Drizzt was caught without those blades. No matter what sort of enchantment they bear now, it only takes a villain finding the right time, and the right place.
I'm happy because, even with Drizzt himself being the obvious cash-cow, death and destruction are happening all around him. And we're not just talking goofs or injuries, like in the past. Hopefully this is life-changing stuff for him.
And for the saga, as well. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 07 Nov 2009 : 17:09:07
He may have finally proved that the companions were not invinceable to himself, but did so with gross overkill. We all knew they weren't by their many failures over the years. Be it Cattie' s injuries, Wulfgars fall from grace or many, many other examples. It's just my opinion, but I think he went too far. Maybe assuring that some of his favorite characters would not be dragged forward ????
But as far as D is concerned he just assured his invincibility for all time. He has taken one of his many powerfully enchanted swords and it is now what "godtouched"? Who can beat him with that weapon, which also apparently alleys him to jump and bound around like a near superman. Also he is now in tight and bound with Jarlaxle and Thereby Bregen D'arthe. Not to mention Atrhogate by association, who is a force nigh upon invincible by himself! And do not forget Danica who went to Mithral Hall as well. D made a piont of admiring her skills and making a piont of asking her about her training. You know as smart as he is he will pick up all she has to teach before parting company. So know he will add her endurance and other skills , such as running down a mountainside to his arsenal. All in all I would say D is easily the most formidable non magician in faerun. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 07 Nov 2009 : 10:45:54
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Catti brie and Regis die abruptly at the end of the book. Mielikki takes them both to a Pocket heaven that seems to be for the two of them. Not sure if anyone else can ever enter. It annoyed me how this was handled, specifically because it was so abrupt.
[...]
But I still hated the abrupt ending and nonchalant deaths of important characters.
I don't really agree with your description of their deaths as "abrupt" or "nonchalant". In the first chapter where she appears, Cat is essentially spellscarred with the image of a nearly-empty hourglass. This would seem to be a clear indicator that her time was nearly up, from the get-go. It's foreshadowing.
Both characters suffer horribly for the entire book, and by the end, some sort of release is definitely called for. A pay-off for their personal battles throughout all the action of the story was needed, and most likely quite welcome by each character.
The actual death scenes would be more aptly described as dreamlike or ethereal, I'd say, rather than nonchalant. If your spirit is going to be taken away while your body is asleep, I imagine it would probably all be a rather sleepy process, much like described.
It was interesting to see how Cat and Reg initially responded very differently to their death scenes. Cat embraced it happily, while Reg kept wanting to ask questions.
At any rate, it doesn't take long before both have come to accept their fates, and to leave Drizzt, et al, behind.
Who knows how a person really responds during the moment of death, and, if a disembodied spirit can exist, in the days and tendays following? How can we know if a spirit will acquiesce willingly, or only go kicking and screaming?
I thought their deaths were handled well. That aspect didn't bother me, other than regret for the loss of important characters. But it was done well.
The fight scenes were mostly excellent, as well. But I did start getting tired of the endless waves of fleshy gray crawlers. They seemed sufficiently challenging at first, but it didn't take long before they started coming off like the cyclopian baddie fodder in RAS's non-Realms "Crimson Shadow" series: plentiful and dispensible, without any depth. I actually found myself missing the orcs a bit. (And I hate orcs!)
But the heroes' actions during the fights were wonderful. It was a close-quarter battle smorgasbord!
Drizzt's own personal transition from sickening optimist to scarred Hunter was very welcome, here. Reading about that old familiar twinkle in his eye and wicked grin on his face brought some much-needed joy for me, amidst all the other depressing events towards the end. Hopefully, it'll even stick.
And RAS used this personal transition of Drizzt's to once again directly acknowledge that it's been all too easy for people (both in the RW and in the Realms) to over-estimate the power and invincibility of the Companions, even though RAS wants us to keep his characters in perspective better than that. After seemingly lecturing us early on about how a hero always makes the shot when it counts, Drizzt later admits that he got cocky, and now it has reached out and bitten him in the butt.
There's nothing wrong with heroism and courage and determination to do the right thing, no matter what. I blame neither Drizzt here, nor Deudermont in The Pirate King, for their moral codes. I actually applauded them, both. But it is nevertheless fitting to see them each forced to scarf down a piece of humble pie in this mini-series. (I suppose that Bruenor could be said to have done so, too, in The Orc King--but I hate orcs, and I still haven't come to grips with that book's outcome, so I won't say so about Bruenor, just yet, myself.)
Heroism isn't just about making the shot when it counts. More importantly, it's about taking the shot at all, in the face of terrible odds, and even if there turn out to be disastrous results.
It is a great irony of life that disastrous results can help to highlight either foolhardiness or heroism . . . or even both.
I'm not religious personally, so it can get irritating very quickly for me to read about fantasy religions and their doctrines and disputes. But it was kinda cool to listen in on the disagreements at the Spirit Soaring during Deneir's silence. Doubt . . . for lack of a better word . . . is good.
Lastly, I noticed some chronological goofs here and there, when it came to the ages of the human characters. But then, I probably was the only one . . .
All in all, I really liked the "Transitions" mini-series. Now, to be sure, The Orc King remains, for me, a travesty. I still cannot stomach the idea of capitulation to orcs like that. It just doesn't seem right. Maybe if RAS had taken a little more time to demonstrate just how hopeless Bruenor felt, rather than letting Drizzt and Alustriel talk about their hopes, I might've actually bought it.
But contrast that with the last two books, which were darker than the typical Drizzt tale, while still featuring familiar RAS action and strong characterization elements. Their unfortunate endings actually seem somewhat poetic to me.
(This is probably just my bias for dwarves speaking here, but I just don't see Bruenor eating humble pie. Give him Gutbuster, any day!) |
| geok1ng |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 13:46:54
I am overwhelmed by the sacred aura of this book, something that only Sandman has achieved before. Drizzt once again adds a deep moral understanding of the hero role in the world, even more than on previous novels. We get to understand Jarlaxle better, and his role in Bregan Daerthe. He is NOT evil. Period. The book leaves room for a future Entreri novel: it is stated that 2 liches were send to the south in search of Entreri, but without any account of the results. And the dracolich is NOT destroyed, maybe trapped in the shadowfell, but still with the liches to use as pawns. The end of Catti and Regis is a hard but eventual fate: the broken hip was already used as an excuse so that Drizzt did not had any children, and the spellplague worked as another excuse to kill the 2 short lived chars of the remaining group. That's it folks: our world is dead, our heros are all dead, the evil remains, and the battle rages on. I mourn and cry the absence of Cadderly- the hero of the personal search of God and the inner truths. I mourn and cry the death of Ryld Argyth, Erevis Cale, Pharaun Myrzzin, the Dragonsbane dinasty and the seven sisters. Drizzt in 4E Realms? A world without druids for Pikel? The world was DESTROYED! All the heroes, hopes, promises were put to ultimate test, and those who survived were left empty husks os obrigation and duty, see Raidon Kaine on The Aboleth series, and Drizzt in the Orc King Prologue/Epilogue.
I hope somewhere Entreri endures: he had nothing to lose already, the Plague couldnt make his life more miserable and lonely. It is past time for all of us to break Idalia's flute and live with what is inside our hearts, for the primordials will wake... |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 09:42:25
Is Pikel still missing his arm, or did Cadderly regenerate him another one? I never liked the fact that he lost his arm in the last Trilogy. |
| Sith_Lord_Drizzt |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 19:06:24
Agreed. With the exception of the rushed ending, this book in my opinion was great! How could it not be when you have five of my favorite dwarves and two of my favorite drow!
Here are some of my favorite parts of the novel...
The scenes with Pwent and Athrogate are classic! I couldn't stop laughing! And together they are just such an unstoppable force! They just worked so well together. I always wanted to see Pwent vs Athrogate, but this was way better! Not only that, but when Bruenor joined the battle with them...WOW!
The team up of Bruenor and Jarlaxle with Drizzt watching in awe was very well written. I loved the description of how Bruenor and Jarlaxle's styles were perfectly intertwined as if they had shared 100 battles and a mentor. Just awesome!
My favorite part of the novel was Drizzt battling in the courtyard. Out by himself trying to lure the Dragon while causing chaos and destroying all enemies in his path. This was so well written. And then you have Jarlaxle and Bruenor looking on with Jarlaxle saying something like "You've been with him for a lot of years...." and Bruenor replying with something like "I've never seen him do that before". Just awesome! This in my opinion is Drizzt at his best....the one we've seen in previous novels. Unstoppable!
The ending, other than Regis and Cattibrie's fate was well written. I like how Drizzt is now in a "dark place". Maybe the "hunter" again. Also, I enjoyed the scene where Jarlaxle was supportive to Drizzt.
I think that Salvatore did a good job tying things up. Lots of things tied into the prologue and epilogue of TOK.
As well, he hinted at other possibilities. Jarlaxle and Drizzt. Since Jarlaxle's appearance he's been sort of a father figure to Drizzt. He's always seemed to have a soft spot for Drizzt. It was alluded earlier on in the novel why this may be the case where Jarlaxle remembers fighting two weapon masters at once and how he would have been killed if it wasn't for another weapons master of a lower house coming to his rescue. With Drizzt in a dark place and Jarlaxle and by default Kimmuriel and Bregan D'aerthe at his side, the possibilities are endless. Although we saw a glimpse of things to come +100 years.
Entereri was also mentioned. I believe two of the liches were sent after him. Hopefully we'll see something about him in the future.
Not only that, but now we have Bruenor, Pwent, Athrogate, Ivan and Pikel all at Mithral Hall. I'd love to see a novel about these dwarves!
I can go on and on but I won't. This was a great novel. I truly hope this isn't the last we see of Drizzt as many of the rumors state. I know a lot of readers don't like him, but he's what got me reading the Forgotten Realms. I'd love to read a Drizzt novel set in the 4E Realms. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 17:29:52
I have to agree with the ratings you gave, Firestorm. I felt a bit let down at the end when Catti-brie and Regis 'pass on'.
My favorite scene? When Cadderly enchants Twinkle and Icingdeath with a supreme holy magic and they send him out to cut through the shadow demons and entice The Ghost King to attack. He's so successful that the demons begin to run from him and he has to chase them down.
But before that happens, Bruenor and company watch him cut a swath through the demons and Jarlaxle notices the surprise on Bruenor's face regarding how swiftly Drizzt is going through the demons. "I ain't never seen that before..." |
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