| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| zuyx |
Posted - 20 Sep 2009 : 05:26:24
I haven't been reading FR books for a long time, started early last year. With the coming of 4E last year, will there be a lot of changes in the novels? Since I don't play the game, I don't know a ton about the changes from 3/3.5 to 4. I just like to read the books |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arawn76 |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 14:46:55
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I for one would prefer this not turn into a pro/vs 4e thread. 
Cheers
Apologies I actually posted on the wrong thread, I was reading both at the same time
Can I turn it to a pro-1e/2e thread though 
I might have got slightly off track in my reply I mainly wanted to assert (in a friendly way) that the material from 1e-4e can be used irrespective of your edition of choice and as I often brainstorm I usually refer back to pre-3e sources for information and ideas. Douglas Niles Moonshae FTW 
However to answer the OP, in my opinion yes and maybe no 
Some areas in FR have significantly changed to the point of being new areas, Mulhorand/Tymanther I'm looking at you. Whereas some areas such as the Sword Coast have received only a light brush with time and cataclysm.
As such I think that you'll probably see the largest changes in novels with new writers or those involved in the design work and set in the areas most impacted. I found Richard Bakers Swordmage & Corsair to be a fair mix of both but have yet to read any others.
Hmm, can we get Douglas Niles to write a new Moonshae book / trilogy or maybe a Brian James debut  . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 00:49:06
Agreed. Let's focus on the actual subject of this scroll.
And, remember, I'll be watching!
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 22:04:10
I for one would prefer this not turn into a pro/vs 4e thread.
Cheers |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 21:56:43
quote:
Originally posted by Arawn76
Except nobody has walked in and removed anything. With respect if you still have your 3e books then your still good to go, or at least in no worse a position than us AD&D fans were. I still have and can refer to a large amount of source material, I can still dip in and use from a fluff perspective the new stuff that might appeal.
You're right. No-one physically removed anything. However, my analogy was used with the intention of describing a reaction to the changes. The game evolves and the older editions fade into the background. Of course, I use my first edition rulebooks to run a game. But we're talking about the setting. There is no use pretending that the setting has not evolved and moved on. And that does affect play.
Of course, if we were talking about people's homebrew settings then they take their influences from whatever source they like. But there are, or were, players who enjoyed the FR setting and liked to play fairly close to the official version. Similarly, there are those who followed the setting as 'lore' - the various books and game products contributing to a perceived and shared experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Arawn76
From my perspective the vitriol and anger stems more from a my way or the high way attitude. People want a setting and rule-set that is exactly what they envision or its eeevvviiill. 
If I want a setting that is exactly what I want then I'll make my own, which I have done. . People can form their opinions about the changes. We're not all limpid sycophants happy to applaud whatever is tossed our way.
Similarly, there are many who like the new changes. I am sure they have made their own opinions based on reasoned assessment. Some are even long-term fans of the setting.
That doesn't upset me. Why should it?
I was just answering the question posed by an earlier correspondent. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 15:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by Arawn76
Except nobody has walked in and removed anything. With respect if you still have your 3e books then your still good to go, or at least in no worse a position than us AD&D fans were. I still have and can refer to a large amount of source material, I can still dip in and use from a fluff perspective the new stuff that might appeal.
But all these old books has no relevance for 4e realms. They are have become dead weight, since the new realms are a wholly different beast. This discontinuity of lore was not as grave with previous edition changes, where the old lore was as usable in the new edition as in the old. |
| Arawn76 |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 14:37:40
quote:
Originally posted by KiaransalynPicture the scene. You and your family or friends are playing Monopoly. Then the owners of that game walk in, take that game away and replace it with Snakes and Ladders. It still involves die rolls and moving counters on the board but it's significantly changed.
Except nobody has walked in and removed anything. With respect if you still have your 3e books then your still good to go, or at least in no worse a position than us AD&D fans were. I still have and can refer to a large amount of source material, I can still dip in and use from a fluff perspective the new stuff that might appeal.
From my perspective the vitriol and anger stems more from a my way or the high way attitude. People want a setting and rule-set that is exactly what they envision or its eeevvviiill.
For my personal, non rules or even time skip biased opinion, I'd say that 4e Realms (not rules) suffers from a distinct lack of flavour and oomph factor. This more than anything else influences my desire to play there. Personally I wish they had done a Dark Sun and returned to the original box set for inspiration. The DDI articles show promise but I'm hesitant to base a game around a few good pieces among the chaff  . |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 17:27:49
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
Picture the scene. You and your family or friends are playing Monopoly. Then the owners of that game walk in, take that game away and replace it with Snakes and Ladders. It still involves die rolls and moving counters on the board but it's significantly changed.
For me it was more like one of my very close friends was murdered, then brought back as a zombie by a necromancer, and I was then told that it was still my close friend and I should be just as happy with it. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 01:15:40
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
Picture the scene. You and your family or friends are playing Monopoly. Then the owners of that game walk in, take that game away and replace it with Snakes and Ladders. It still involves die rolls and moving counters on the board but it's significantly changed. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 01:10:40
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
I haven't been reading FR books for a long time, started early last year. With the coming of 4E last year, will there be a lot of changes in the novels?
Probably! Most of the novels linked with 3rd Edn carried Realms Shattering Events. |
| zuyx |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 23:07:49
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well good luck to you, Zuyx, and you are very welcome here to read or discuss.
There are a lot of opinions out there about the Realms--positive or negative--just like there are a lot of opinions out there about everything. Make sure you form your own.
Cheers
My opinion will develop as I read more, I plan on reading mostly 3E for now, so the world isn't changing from book to book. I'm sure this place will help my opinion grow. Cool that the authors post here, see that they are real people. |
| Falstaffsrevenge |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 15:31:55
I have tried several of the titles that comprise the 4e and while they are good books, written by very talented writers (nods to Mr. de Bie and several others)the general tone and setting do not appeal to me as much as some of the older material. Some of the complaints of the old Realms are some of the things that endeared me to them. I am not naive or foolish, at least I don't see myself that way, but I liked that the good guy generally won, that magic was everywhere, and that the world was generally a good place. The world we live in, reality, is harsh and sometimes hard. It was nice to have a place to escape to and enjoy. At it's heart books, movies, and video games are escapism. Over the last few years, even before the announcement of 4e, I had noticed some subtle changes to the FR books. I even made mention of this to my wife. The books generally tended to be "darker", to end with less of the "heroic" endings that I was used to reading. Not that I am adverse to reading that kind of material, I love Moorcock, but this is not the direction I been expecting with FR. I used to buy FR the moment they were published, and would write on a calender the publication date that I would get here at Candle Keep, irregardless of the author. I have been more circumspect with regards to FR novels lately.
The draw intially for me to FR was the stories, which is still there, but the more I read, the more I appreciated that I knew some of the history of the world. If a book referenced a name, a place, a time, or an event, I would have had some passing knowledge of it. All that knowledge base allowed me enjoy new stories and arcs, but kept me grounded in realms history or general knowledge of the realms. I didn't mind picking up a new author, because I felt 'safe' in the setting. The new novels are a disconnect for that. Not only the one hundred year jump, the loss of so many NPC, and the shifting geography, but the 'loss of refereance' (my term).
In the old Realms, I could mention Waterdeep, and most of us here would get mental images of that city. All drawn from our collect experience and knowledges. Now that has changed, and in time the new world will be filled with a rich knowledge base, but I can't help but lamenting the loss of so much lore. I will continue to give 4e a chance, as far as the novels, but the mechanics of 4e the game will be left for new generations. I will remain a luddite (tongue planted firmly in cheek) and play 3.5 or earlier versions, or I might put my playing on hiatus and re-evaluate my reading list.
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 15:26:06
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
I can kind of see what you are getting at. With the time change a lot of the world has changed, also a lot of people are dead or gone, etc. Slowly been reading this forum and learning.
I am still pretty clueless on a ton of lore, and have a lot to read.
Well good luck to you, Zuyx, and you are very welcome here to read or discuss.
There are a lot of opinions out there about the Realms--positive or negative--just like there are a lot of opinions out there about everything. Make sure you form your own.
Cheers |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 15:25:33
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
You must remember that a lot of people here are gamers in addition to being novel readers. The changes done here have enormous effects on peoples games and the surroundings they have been using for years. |
| zuyx |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 02:58:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
Because of the way the changes were implemented, and some of the changes themselves.
My personal opinion is that the changes and their causes are illogical and inconsistent with prior lore. For me, the entire feel of the setting has changed, and it was the feel that first attracted me.
Obviously, not everyone shares my opinion; some happily embrace the new Realms.
I can kind of see what you are getting at.
With the time change a lot of the world has changed,
also a lot of people are dead or gone, etc. Slowly been
reading this forum and learning.
I am still pretty clueless on a ton of lore,
and have a lot to read. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 02:41:40
The greatest change, to me, is the 100+ year time jump.
Before, when you didn't like a given Realms-Shattering-Event, you could rework your campaign around it, have it not happen, etc., and still use most of the lands and people.
The shopkeep in Waterdeep's Dock Ward would still be there regardless of whether you liked the events of the Tlincalli War in Amn and the quirky innkeeper with his loyal staff who refer to him as the Chief Adventurer in their band would still offer refuge to a group of travellers in the Vast no matter whether dragons ran amuck or not. Elminster's current status didn't matter when it came to having a drink at the Fall of Stars and the intrigues of the Darowdryns, the Mestels and the Cauldyls would continue no matter who ruled the Zhentarim.
But skipping ahead a century means that 99.9% of NPCs and their various relationships which truly made up the setting are rendered irrelevant as the characters are all dead now. Nothing of the new books is useful to a GM who prefers to avoid using the huge changes intended by the official line. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2009 : 02:17:08
quote:
Originally posted by zuyx
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
Because of the way the changes were implemented, and some of the changes themselves.
My personal opinion is that the changes and their causes are illogical and inconsistent with prior lore. For me, the entire feel of the setting has changed, and it was the feel that first attracted me.
Obviously, not everyone shares my opinion; some happily embrace the new Realms. |
| zuyx |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 22:09:03
From what I gather, 4E books will basically be a continuation of ended series from 3E,
and be further along in the timeline 1400+.
Was looking at another thread, a lot of people seem upset with
4E, and won't be reading any FR from it. Why such hate?
I just started reading FR intensely, so I haven't read all that much
yet, don't know who everyone is, or everything that has happened. Also don't know every author, what they wrote etc. I know R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood for their work with two of the most popular characters. But that is all I can really name.
But I am slowly getting further along. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 15:40:46
@OP: It depends on the scope you have in mind when you ask if things will *change* from 3.5e to 4e in the novels.
If you mean, "do the politics, geography, and lore shift," then yes, there are a number of changes, many of which are discussed above. Though that probably won't seem all that jarring to you, as a consumer of the novels; the novels have been and always will be a place where you see things shifting, in minor or major ways; the time-skip isn't any different, just *more* so.
If you mean "do the novels explore all sorts of wild and crazy things and/or cease being the Realms fiction we know and love," then no, not at all. I think that aside from some shifts in the lore and a refocus on new characters in preference to old/retired ones (and not in every instance--a LOT of us write about returned characters), the novels continue basically uninterrupted through the Spellplague and into 1479.
The game mechanics shift quite dramatically between editions, and there is far less sourcebook material in 4e than there was in 3.5e, but novel-wise, I think you'll be good. If you're particularly keen on keeping with the established tone of the Realms and branch out gradually into the new stuff, I'm going to give the entirely non-self-serving (ding!) recommendation* of the Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep series.
Cheers
*And yes, though one of my own books is indeed in that series, this isn't a case of a shameless plug; rather, I'm plugging FIVE authors other than myself, who I personally think play exceedingly well with Realms continuity. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 09:11:17
And there is the hundred year time-leap of course. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 05:30:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
Imaskar has returned in 4E. This a continuation of the events in Darkvision.
That, and Cordell's Stardeep novel as well.
|
| The Simbul |
Posted - 21 Sep 2009 : 04:20:50
The novels were changing the face of Toril long before 4E, whether it was by detailing realms that were previously not widely known, or by shaking up the status quo in those that were. There was also a fair share of divine upheaval, the death of older characters, or the introduction of new ones.
Aside from that generalization, there are many specific changes in 4E that were fairly well foreshadowed in the novels, both those conceptualized and written just before the shift and those written several years earlier.
Elminster and the Simbul are retired in 4E. This is a continuation of the conclusion of Elminster in Hell.
Myth Drannor is reclaimed by the elves in 4E. This is a continuation of The Last Mythal trilogy.
Imaskar has returned in 4E. This a continuation of the events in Darkvision.
Netheril as an Empire has returned, and is held in check only by an alliance of surrounding realms in 4E. This is a continuation of the events in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, Mistress of the Night, and the Twilight War trilogy.
Lolth is now the undisputed deity of the Drow in 4E. This is a continuation of the War of the Spider Queen series and the Lady Penitent trilogy.
Szass Tam is now the undisputed master of Thay in 4E. This is a continuation of--common sense and the last twenty years of lore dealing with the East--and also the Haunted Lands trilogy.
I could go on, but I am a bit tired. |
| Hellkeepa |
Posted - 20 Sep 2009 : 06:17:27
HELLo!
Most probably, yes. Considering they've killed off a whole slew of the gods, reworked the magic system, and most mages hava either died, gone insane or is simply missing. Oh, and some of the geography is altered too, due to the Spellplague, apparently.
Afraid I can't give you any details, except for on the differences in the game systems; Which would be moot. As my sig says, I'm staying away from 4th ed, after reading the PHB and tidbits of the changes to Faerūn. I'm sure there are other people here that can give you the full details, if you want them.
Happy codin'! |
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