| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| swifty |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 09:26:09
i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.it seems as every time a new character comes into the story[especially if there good guys]the women have perfect skin,teeth,hair,ample bosom.that last one must pee off female readers.and the men are always described as being a cross between brad pitt and HHH.good looking and huge muscles.for once it would be nice to see some leading good guys who were a bit more normal. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 09:34:26
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Actually, Erik, I can think of a few fantasy stories that at least touch on the theme of an odd or undesirable appearance and its effect on social opportunity and one's feelings of self-worth. But I think you're right: it's more common for writers in our genre to link this to issues of racism and xenophobia that to deal with it as an idea unto itself.
I have a feeling that stories focusing on the psychological fears and angst, resulting from the looks and self image of the character in question and the search for a power of sorts to ease these worries, were more common in older fantastic short stories? I am thinking Poe, Ashton-Smith, Lovecraft etc. Of course, these could at times also result in more speculative ideas on ugliness and evil. I seem to remember there being, in modern fantastic stories not tied to the medieval tradition of Sword & Sorcery or the early English writers, several writers who focus more on these themes? Then especially in short story form.
This is one of the occasions I would (again) wish for a photographic memory, I know I have read examples of this, but for the life of me I cant remmember the titles. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 23:43:06
Mmm, well said, RLB. One of the charms about fantasy is that it often glosses over the small and personal and goes for the epic in scope. Drizzt isn't worried about a few excess pounds--he deals with overcoming the unflinching racial prejudice from everyone he meets. And both are about acceptance--it's just a matter of what symbol your book uses.
And when it comes to fantasy, why worry about pimples or love handles when you can deal with societal racism or the personification of evil?
Cheers |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 19:33:36
This is probably a bit off topic, but at one point in Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe series, Wolfe runs afoul of a criminal mastermind. Essentially, his Moriarity. The only way to bring the villain down is to infiltrate his organization. So Wolfe disappears and spends months shedding his many excess pounds, with the result that nobody recognizes him when it's time to bore from within.
Actually, Erik, I can think of a few fantasy stories that at least touch on the theme of an odd or undesirable appearance and its effect on social opportunity and one's feelings of self-worth. But I think you're right: it's more common for writers in our genre to link this to issues of racism and xenophobia that to deal with it as an idea unto itself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 18:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Careful, Wooly, your Davion-proclivities are showing. 
You say that as if it's a bad thing. What's wrong with favoring the Davions, the single best faction that could ever exist? At least they're not as bad as those Cappie waste-cases... 
...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I read Stackpole's DCWC books some time ago. They never really grabbed me all that much. Maybe because I've just been so used to his BattleTech fiction, that I've never actually enjoyed reading anything else he's written. It's curious.
I've not read all of his stuff, but the stuff I have read, I've quite enjoyed. I really thought that the masked society discussed in the Dark Glory War was an intriguing one, and one I'd like to see again. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 17:09:54
Careful, Wooly, your Davion-proclivities are showing.
...
I read Stackpole's DCWC books some time ago. They never really grabbed me all that much. Maybe because I've just been so used to his BattleTech fiction, that I've never actually enjoyed reading anything else he's written. It's curious.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 16:29:56
You speak of The DragonCrown War Cycle, a name I've always thought was a bit awkward... But since Stackpole is one of my fave authors, I can forgive this.  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 16:14:08
Mirt for sure!
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I am looking for fat, overweight protagonists. There should be good humor inserted where a dashing/fit character would overcome a burden and the main character cannot :D
And conversely, where a fat, good humored protagonist can accomplish the task but a fit, dashing hero cannot.
This isn't a Realms novel, obviously, but Stackpole's series of books--overall name escapes me, but Fortress Draconis is the first of the actual trilogy, and the Dark Glory War is the prequel--has (amongst others) a very overweight wizard hero. By the end, he burns up most of his actual fat, but is left with copious folds of skin as if he'd been through liposuction. Again, in his case, his appearance is extremely important to his character development.
An idea that just occurred to me--not saying there's anything to it, just something to try on for thinking: perhaps, to an extent, fantasy as a genre just doesn't directly deal much with that theme--appearance and the pressure to fit in. We're maybe more interested in dealing with larger-scale struggles like racism, good vs. evil, that sort of thing. Not to say that personal appearance as connected to socialization and self-worth isn't a worthy theme--it just tends to be glossed over in fantasy and dealt with in more serious terms in other genres. (It's maybe sort of more of a YA-appropriate theme.)
Can folks think of instances in fantasy that deal primarily with the pressures of personal appearance and fitting into one's social group?
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 03:07:50
Strangely, as soon as Matt brought up "fat, overweight protagonists," I started thinking about what tales Ed could tell us about Mirt. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 02:12:10
Heh. I WISH Wizards would unearth some of Ed's original Mirt short stories. That's what they were all about, Matt: wheezing, aging, overweight main character who just can't do the heroics anymore, in stories that are laced with humour.
love,
THO |
| Matt James |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 22:26:52
I will be monitoring the next several novels by the authors in this thread. I am looking for fat, overweight protagonists. There should be good humor inserted where a dashing/fit character would overcome a burden and the main character cannot :D |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 03:10:23
Dorn was ugly, and Aoth Fezim is no beauty, either, so plainly, in my work, the correlation between being attractive and being fit is not 100%. It's not 100% in real life, either, but it does exist. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 02:43:11
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good.
Dorn wasn't a good-looking protagonist (at least that's my recollection) although he *was* physically fit and a mighty warrior.
True! Part of what made Dorn stand out *was* his ugliness.
Also Dorn was very attractive to at least *one* very significant (and cool) character. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Cheers |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 22:26:09
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good.
Dorn wasn't a good-looking protagonist (at least that's my recollection) although he *was* physically fit and a mighty warrior. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 21:26:31
There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 16:55:05
Good point about the romance writing, Elaine!
Earning good money from writing is an elusive thing, one that takes lots of dedication, patience, and a fair streak of good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
If someone is scarred or downright ugly, too much emphasis on this fact comes across as just as beauty-obsessed as the slender but shapely woman who pauses in the midst of a battle to smooth a lock of her long, luxurious red hair away from her sparkling emerald eyes.
This is an excellent point!
I think the use of a character who is noticeably ugly is, by default, purposeful (i.e., you expect your fantasy characters to be at least moderately attractive), and should be used sparingly and for a particular purpose. A recent character I wrote comes to mind, who went from being very attractive to being disfigured, which I did very purposefully to develop a certain aspect to his character. (Also plan to do more, if I get to write more about that guy.)
quote:
My fingers hurt just from typing that last sentence. 
Too right!
Cheers |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 13:44:57
An additional thought about the concept of too many good-looking characters. I've written quite a few of them--they're expected--but in general I prefer not to dwell overmuch on appearance. Turning the coin over, I don't particularly enjoy reading repeated reminders that a character's appearance is no more than average. If someone is scarred or downright ugly, too much emphasis on this fact comes across as just as beauty-obsessed as the slender but shapely woman who pauses in the midst of a battle to smooth a lock of her long, luxurious red hair away from her sparkling emerald eyes.
My fingers hurt just from typing that last sentence. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 13:35:14
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Are we talking about romance novels? Because if anyone wants to make a lot of money writing, romance is the way to go.
Well, yes and no.
Yes, romance novels collectively outsell any other genre, and yes, some of the most popular romance writers do very well indeed. But for a more accurate picture of what romance writers earn, here's one of the best resources on the web, last updated July 2008:
http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html
Trust me, advances have not increased significantly in the past 14 months. I often read that the median advance on royalties is around $5000, which is about what it was when I started writing professionally nearly 20 years ago. And keep in mind that most books do not "earn out." This means that the total royalty (which is usually a percentage of the cover price) the writer earns does not equal, much less exceed, the advance.
Over the past 28 years, an average of 27 Nora Roberts books were sold EVERY MINUTE. But that is no more indicative of the average romance writer's income than J.K. Rowlings is of fantasy writers. There are rare exceptions in every genre, but the hard fact is that over 95% of published writers need another source of revenue to make ends meet. Romance writers are no exception.
If you like romance, write it. If you don't, you're better off writing something you love. A lack of passion for the genre is likely to come through on the (unpublished) page.
$.02,
ec |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 19:34:41
Nice, Mr. Coyote.
You could always step up to 1d12 and add:
11: Respiratory issues (sniffles, snores like miter saw, sneezes like hyena, etc.)
12: Digestive issues (stomach rumbles at inopportune times, uncontrollable flatulence, etc.)
Cheers |
| Mr. Coyote |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 19:12:00
1d10
1 Hair (bald or oily and dirty ect.)
2 Facial Hair (somthing race inappropriate.)
3 Facial Feature (scared, broken nose, ect.)
4 Expression (maak, drunken, naive, ect.)
5 Clothes (you get the idea.)
6 Bearing
7 Speech
8 Arms and Hands
9 Torso
10 Leg and feet
Nobodys Perfect |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 16:08:48
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere ( ), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers.
Hmm, better scratch that off the list of potential pitches, then!
Cheers
Unless it in some way included on of them being whacked on the head with Stormbringer of course |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 15:28:22
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere (), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers.
Hmm, better scratch that off the list of potential pitches, then!
Cheers |
| Sandro |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 05:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Come now, we can all appreciate the fact that we like to play with little imaginary men fighting imaginary monsters and that makes us a little bit weird. Now, when we add the fact that we like to act out imaginary relationships with imaginary people that are more complex than relationships we'd put up with in the real world, weeellll, let's just say that I think that noise is Freud rolling around in his grave shouting 'What did you say that tree looked like?'.
I say this without any real shame, though. The cognizant status with which I view my oddity does not bring with it any desire to change it or any regrets over its existence. But it would be a base misrepresentation to deny it entirely.
Ahaha, I definitely get what you're saying. Nothing wrong with being a bit weird, eh?
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere (), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 11:52:43
Stories and dreams are human -- without them we couldn't live or deal with the complexities of the world (it's the people who don't fight imaginary monsters you want to be careful of). Leaving out romantic love or any other major aspect of life from stories would be, exactly, perverse. Using roleplaying rather than a more passive medium is statistically and thus culturally unusual, but not odd in human terms. |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 01:58:30
I extends this comentary. They're all perfect with no fails at all. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 01:41:06
Well, when I say 'shamefacedly', I don't mean that I'm honestly ashamed of it. Let us rather say that I wryly acknowledge the fact that it is a little peccadillo I'll admit to enjoying in private, but which is likely to seem off-putting or even obscene to others. Like one enjoys the movie Evolution, auto-erotic asphyxiation or, for those into stranger thrills, stamp collections.
Come now, we can all appreciate the fact that we like to play with little imaginary men fighting imaginary monsters and that makes us a little bit weird. Now, when we add the fact that we like to act out imaginary relationships with imaginary people that are more complex than relationships we'd put up with in the real world, weeellll, let's just say that I think that noise is Freud rolling around in his grave shouting 'What did you say that tree looked like?'.
I say this without any real shame, though. The cognizant status with which I view my oddity does not bring with it any desire to change it or any regrets over its existence. But it would be a base misrepresentation to deny it entirely.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 23:31:06
Thanks for resurrecting this scroll. I thought of one other thing: it's more helpful to use terms like "beautiful" or "alluring" when you're having other characters say them. Then you get those characters' opinions, rather than yours, as the author. Not everyone is going to find the heroine gorgeous, but if you've done your job right, the reader is going to like her.
@Icelander and Sandro: There is absolutely nothing wrong with romantic subplots in your fiction/games. As long as you're comfortable and having a good time, you should do whatever the Nine Hells you want. I myself am notorious for running romantic subplots in my campaigns.
When publishing a book, it's best to consider your market. I generally try to appeal to lots of different interests--action, romance, high-octane magic, heroism, romance--partly because I think the average Realms fan wants all that goodness, but partly because the Realms is all those things to me.
Cheers
|
| Sandro |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 09:15:48
quote:
I also admit, shamefacedly, that romantic subplots are a staple of my gaming and it seems to encourage players to pursue them with more vigour of the potential object of their affections is described as eye-candy.
Why shamefacedly? Roleplaying should be about playing your character, putting yourself in their "role". If one of your PC's is a character that happens to enjoy romantic, uh, adventures, then why should they be something you have to be ashamed about in roleplaying? Hell, throwing in a paternity suit or an especially manipulative woman ("leave that silly adventuring group and settle down with me... I need you more than them, etc.) and you've got no end of adventure hooks, as well as some lightness that could easily be missing in a game full of killing goblins and crawling through ancient dungeons. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Sep 2009 : 06:03:05
This is an interesting topic for me, since it is something I have struggled with in my own GMing*. On one hand, I like my fiction** to be plausible and consistent, so when something is different from reality, I want it to have a clear cause***. On the other hand, attractive and/or memorable looking characters increase the fun my players and, damn it, I have during gaming.
Obviously, having every single important person be visually striking present huge problems with plausibility, as we know that in our world, things don't work that way.
I mulled it over for the longest time. I even tried for a while to fit in several 'average' looking people for every single attractive person present. I made an effort to introduce plain noble lasses, dumpy sorceresses, big-nosed swordsmen and long-lost heirs with watery eyes and a weak chin. In fact, I still do that. As long as characters have memorable visual/imaginanation 'shticks', I don't mind so much whether that 'shtick' is generally considered negative or positive.
But that still presents a problem to plausibility. Simply put, the percentage of people, even exceptionally notable people, in the real world who are remarkable in appearance is much less than the percentage in my games, no matter how I try.
I simply can't convey appearances in anything other than broad strokes if I am to maintain any pace at all during gaming and that, rightly or wrongly, leads to the familiar "flash of emerald eyes", "piercing cold-grey and knowing gaze", "glorious mane of blue-black hair" and "supple young body" substantially outnumbering occasions where a lot of wordage is spent on establishing a characteristic that differs from the norm only subtly, if at all. Those descriptions are the ones that stand out and so, they are the ones I lazily resort to using. And hell, I like visually distinct characters more than the ones that I have difficulty keeping straight in my mind.
I also admit, shamefacedly, that romantic subplots**** are a staple of my gaming and it seems to encourage players to pursue them with more vigour of the potential object of their affections is described as eye-candy.
So in this clash of artistic integrity versus juvenile fascination with the beauty of the human form, what did I do?
That's easy. I came to terms with my lack of artistic integrity. I decided that Faerun was simply peopled by much more visually striking examples of humanity than Earth. The ugly were uglier, the gorgeous were gorgeouser and the 'average' represented a much smaller set than in our world.
Why? You mean you need a 'why' here?
So did I.
I decided that:
1) In our world, different areas of the world are famous or infamous for the beauty of the inhabitants. It is no great stretch of the imagination to imagine that Chondathans (insert other Realms ethnic group) are collectively as 'beautiful' as the people of Iceland*****, for example. This accounts for some of it.
2) The Realms are not medieval in any way, shape or form. Disease is less common, nutrition is better and there are minor herblore and folk magic treatments available that are in some ways better than modern medicine. Hygiene is immesurably better. And while the things that historically made people ugly are lessened or removed, the active lifestyle is retained, so people enjoy the best of both worlds.
3) Add magic to the above and you have phenomenal health care for most people with the means, i.e. nobles, the rich, adventureres and nearly all other notable people in my games.
4) There are gods of every conceivable thing, but not of mediocrity. The Goddess of Love and Beauty has clergy that spend their time making people more beautiful, the Mistress of Disease attempts to curse people with horrible face-melting plagues, but there isn't any god making sure that people remain unmemorable and average. So the overall effect over time is to exaggerate extremes and reduce the number of median examples.
5) Many of the things that are perceived as beautiful, especially in men but in women to some degree as well, correlate rather strongly with the utility of the body as a weapon of war. Someone whose life literally depends on his body responding to his desires at the speed of thought in battle will realistically be fit, muscular and carry himself with, at the very least, precision and consciousness of his body, that might easily be mistaken for grace. Powerful adventurers of any sort, therefore, will often have phenomenally toned and limber bodies****** simply out of necessity.
*Yes, I know that's not writing. But many of the same principles apply. Shut up and listen, will'ya?
**I've decided to call the end result of gaming, that is, the story that emerges through the joint efforts of GM and players, 'fiction' and thus justify posting this here. I dare you to call me on it.
***Though that cause may never show up in play, if it has nothing to do with the matters my players are interested in pursuing.
****To be strictly accurate, sometimes the 'adventuring, questing, killing and looting' has been a subplot to a main plot that would not have been out of place in a day time soap opera. With swords. And spells. And dragons. And liches.
*****And yes, it's not a myth. Comparing the average Reykjavík nightclub with nightclubs around Europe and the US, I've concluded that I won the lottery of life when I was born here. If we crudely imagine a scale for physical attractiveness, a 7.5 on the scale in much of the rest of the world is about average, i.e. 5.0, here.
******The heaving bosoms and straining bodices, though, are not heavily represented in my Realms. Sure, sedentary noblewomen or courteseans of note might well sport them, but among active adventurers those would be about as common as they are among real world Olympic athletes. That is, not very. |
| Sousinne |
Posted - 25 Jun 2009 : 20:10:39
Oh, I always thought a novel about a devotee of Sune would make for a great romance novel. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 13 Jun 2009 : 23:44:02
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Are we talking about romance novels? Because if anyone wants to make a lot of money writing, romance is the way to go.
Yes, I was talking romance novels. I can't stand them myself, but it seems everyone I know is reading the darn things. I may just give up writing adventure fantasy for fun and write some of the other for profit
quote:
Ha! I do that ALL THE TIME.
Cheers
Glad to hear that I am in good company...
And yes, it's Lady - though some might argue the term |
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