| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lameth |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 21:19:16
This title will be released on June 3, 2008.
The Cover
http://www.dragonclaw-online.de/Bucher/Forgotten_Realms/Neuerscheinungen/2008/Ascendancy_of_the_Last.jpg |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zireael |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 19:16:17
Sorry to perform scroll necromancy, but I've just read Storm of the Dead and I'm curious: did Q'arlynd ever see Halisstra in her shape of Lady Penitent? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 12:22:42
The Old Realms will never die ... or always be there. For no-one can dictated at what time you play, which deities, heroes or rules you use. |
| Yasraena Dawndancer |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:09:37
Sadly, I am about ready to slap a big old IGNORE button on the Forgotten Realms. If they zotch Eilistraee, they will kill one of the nostalgic things I have had from the Original Drow of the Underdark book. *sniff* And my introduction into Dungeons and Dragons. If not for tails of a friends Eilistraeen convert, I would have never played D&D. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2007 : 08:01:04
Khorne, you might want to take a look at the Shadowdale adventure module for the details surrounding Syluné's demise.
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| khorne |
Posted - 08 Dec 2007 : 07:54:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
What they said, she was still around in some sense, now she isn't. :)
WHAT?!
Chaga choka'jinn! My patience with WOTC is wearing thinner and thinner. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 22:35:19
What they said, she was still around in some sense, now she isn't. :) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 20:44:39
She died the first time around after bashing that great red (?) wyrm with her staff. She did return as some sort of spectral harper/mage sort of thing, but in one of the recent adventures/novels was apparently permanently laid to rest. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 19:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
All I can say to that is they had better not do that. If the powers that be do not like the chosen why can't they just not write about them and let us decide their fates? If they start Bumping off the chosen or perverting them so soon into 4e, I am really starting to think there is someone wanting to change all things Ed!!
I like this series and where it is heading so i don't want to see Quilue Messed with!
You mean like killing Khelben and Sylune, so far. :)
Um, hasn't Sylune been "dead" for quite some time now?
From what I've heard she was "killed" as in "no longer in a position to do stuff from beyond the grave." |
| khorne |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 19:06:38
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
All I can say to that is they had better not do that. If the powers that be do not like the chosen why can't they just not write about them and let us decide their fates? If they start Bumping off the chosen or perverting them so soon into 4e, I am really starting to think there is someone wanting to change all things Ed!!
I like this series and where it is heading so i don't want to see Quilue Messed with!
You mean like killing Khelben and Sylune, so far. :)
Um, hasn't Sylune been "dead" for quite some time now? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 17:24:16
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Rinnonalyrna Fathomlin Wrote:
Worst case scenario: its a corrupted Qilue.
This. Would. Make. Me. So. Mad. I would not buy the book. My fan anger would be terrible in its ridiculous magnitude! I would, um, rage impotently and ... stuff.
But remember, it may not happen. Really, anything could happen in final book of this trilogy.
This is actually the point which bothers me most. First, we were "dragged" through 6 (not the usual 3) novels to see what becomes of the Spider Queen and her kin in a series which did near to nothing with regards to explaining what she did, but is wrongly called "The War of the Spider Queen". Then we get a series equally misleading in its title - "Lady Penitent" - which goes on through a further three novels, making it in essence a 9 novel series, covering fully six years to bring to an end that is as open now as it was in July 2002. Next ... no, I actually do not want to think that far. I just read through Stardeep and am reasonably happy that here you have a novel that does things from start to finish in one novel, something that does not turn much of the lore that I own upside down and leave me with a few scraps I "should be happy to get". (And yes, IMHO, the whole drow pantheon thing is really messed up.)
I have every confidence that Lisa will give us another very good novel, but I cannot say that I anticipate the events described therein with any great deal of hope.*
BTW, covers, backcover- and teaser-texts, expecially with the LP series, leave quite a bit to be desired. For more recently you hardly get what the aforementioned texts proclaim within the novel as such.
*Hope as in: a good solution which does leave enough opportunities to all parties concerned. A single mega-cool Lolth (a la Drow of the Underdark) would be no good solution (unless you like this half a handful of deities sort of pantheon picture), nor would be a Eilistraee-only version. I ... could go on for ages again, but in the end my point simply is: there is no need for any deiicide, nor one "final and 'there can only be one'" sava game either. I can see no point whatsoever here, since the drow as an enemy race will never really work again if Lolth get's chucked or a (semi-)good goddess takes over their reigns. And just don't come up with these Eberron-namesakes. They are drow only by name and stats, IMHO. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:55:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I was referring to you Toby. Was Seyll only in the WotSQ series or did she get featured elsewhere as well? I really liked her. Eilistraee let her down big time.
I think she only really appeared in War of the Spider Queen, though she was mentioned sometimes in the Lady Penitent series and her brother appeared in Sacrifice of the Widow. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
So I guess I have no real feelings toward Qilue one way or the other based on these books. Since no one is upset at the possibility that other main characters in the series could be killed, I have to assume this affection for Qilue comes from her being featured in other novels. Where else has she appeared?
Qilue has been established as a Realms character for a very long time outside of the novels--she is a Chosen of Mystra (along with Eilistraee) and is one of the Seven Sisters as well.
And no, to be honest I can't say that I'd be "crushed" if any of the main characters (Cavatina, Q'arlynd, Halisstra) ended up dying. I don't hate them, but I don't feel any particular affection for them either.
I actually think that Q'arlyd and Halisstra deserve to die and Cavatina could use a little "come uppance" The scene where Quilue nicked herself with the Cresent Blade while dancing showed a bit of jealousy and resentment for Quilue. A nice scar for her to look at in the mirror would temper her a bit! |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 18:50:49
I was referring to you Toby. Was Seyll only in the WotSQ series or did she get featured elsewhere as well? I really liked her. Eilistraee let her down big time. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 18:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I think you've captured my feelings concerning the Eilistraeens well. I really liked them until I read these books.
Thank you (unless you didn't mean me).
I mean, it's not like they haven't been imperfect before. For example, Yarno's parents were High Hunted in Extinction, and a group of them tried to kill Dove Falconhand in Silverfall (I'm going to stay out of the whole gender-exclusive clergy kerfaffle for now). But Qilué told them off for the Dove thing, and the werewolf thing was largely regarded as an accident (on both their part and, meta-ly speaking, the author's part). And a lot of these priestesses grew up in the Underdark, they're probably not going to keep up the shiny 24/10. So the servants of Eilistraee are not always going to be letter-perfect Good, nor letter-perfect adherents to their goddess's will, and it would be unfair to expect that.
But in Sacrifice of the Widow it seems this, I don't know, this cold streak goes all the way up to Eilistraee herself, and I actually had a burst of warm fuzzies for Lolth of all people for kindasorta calling her on it in the Storm of the Dead prelude. Surely that's not intentional? Unless (crazy conspiracy theory time!) it's deliberate so as to try and cut down on the fan outrage when she's killed off? 
I miss Seyll. She might be considered "Stupid Good" but I'd take her over Cavatina any day. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 18:35:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
So I guess I have no real feelings toward Qilue one way or the other based on these books. Since no one is upset at the possibility that other main characters in the series could be killed, I have to assume this affection for Qilue comes from her being featured in other novels. Where else has she appeared?
Qilue has been established as a Realms character for a very long time outside of the novels--she is a Chosen of Mystra (along with Eilistraee) and is one of the Seven Sisters as well.
And no, to be honest I can't say that I'd be "crushed" if any of the main characters (Cavatina, Q'arlynd, Halisstra) ended up dying. I don't hate them, but I don't feel any particular affection for them either. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 18:03:47
I think you've captured my feelings concerning the Eilistraeens well. I really liked them until I read these books. |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 16:21:12
She also appears in the other two books of Liriel's trilogy (that is, Daughter of the Drow and Windwalker).
quote:
with an eye more toward sensationalism and pot-stirring than long-term consequence.
I have to admit, that was one of my first thoughts when it sank in for me that two gods (my two favorites in the drow pantheon at that) had apparently been unceremoniously whacked in the first book alone, taking great chunks of backstory and potential to the Astral Plane with them, though I'm much calmer about it now (and practicing some heavy-duty denial).
Eilistraee used to be my third favorite, but this series has soured me on her somewhat. Maybe it's just that it contradicts the image of her I had before this, which I guess was pretty much a composite of Seyll (who believed nobody was beyond redemption), Ilmater, and the much younger version of her who appears in the Evermeet novel. Maybe what did happen was perfectly in line with prior canon, but the Eilistraee in my head would have reacted with a bit more... I don't know, maybe emotion... at the end of Sacrifice of the Widow etc. and maybe that's what ticked me off so. Also I found Cavatina rather irksome and Qilué is apparently on the verge of going off the deep end.
But still, I think I'd rather take Eilistraee (plus all the bits of Vhaeraun except the bits that together endeared him to me, though I can dream) over Drow of the Underdark-esque "Lolth Rules Supreme and twins all eat each other in utero." Oh well, still got Ghaunadaur... right? Right?
quote:
otherwise known as: "The War of the Spider Queen: For Really Reals This Time"
That is just unbelievably apropos, though at this point I'm halfway hoping for another fizzle. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 14:46:15
The two books I can remember off the top of my head are Tangled Webs by Elaine Cunningham and Silverfall by Ed Greenwood. Does anyone know if there are others? |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 13:03:54
So I guess I have no real feelings toward Qilue one way or the other based on these books. Since no one is upset at the possibility that other main characters in the series could be killed, I have to assume this affection for Qilue comes from her being featured in other novels. Where else has she appeared? |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 01:08:49
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
All I can say to that is they had better not do that. If the powers that be do not like the chosen why can't they just not write about them and let us decide their fates? If they start Bumping off the chosen or perverting them so soon into 4e, I am really starting to think there is someone wanting to change all things Ed!!
I like this series and where it is heading so i don't want to see Quilue Messed with!
You mean like killing Khelben and Sylune, so far. :)
Right 
I am wondering if whoever is in charge of the changes is trying to re-create the realms by "removing" some(or many) of what makes the realms the place we love. I remember someone with wizards saying that if you like the chosen , then you would not like what 4E means for them.
I like quilue just the way she is, and a more interesting angle than corrupting her would be to see how she handles the dismantling of most of Ellistrae's progress...oh well. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 00:31:27
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
As Kuje mentioned, a couple Chosen are already dead, (though wasn't Khelben Steven Schend's call?)
Nope. I think Steve himself has said that plot development was not his choice. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 00:30:04
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Rinnonalyrna Fathomlin Wrote:
Worst case scenario: its a corrupted Qilue.
This. Would. Make. Me. So. Mad. I would not buy the book. My fan anger would be terrible in its ridiculous magnitude! I would, um, rage impotently and ... stuff.
But remember, it may not happen. Really, anything could happen in final book of this trilogy. |
| initiate |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 22:53:06
Rinnonalyrna Fathomlin Wrote:
Worst case scenario: its a corrupted Qilue.
This. Would. Make. Me. So. Mad. I would not buy the book. My fan anger would be terrible in its ridiculous magnitude! I would, um, rage impotently and ... stuff.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree that Qilue would make a good villain -- I mean, perhaps for a short while, but in the long term? No. I'm sure it would be "cool", but I really don't think villainy is what the Seven were meant for. Anyway, we've already seen one temporarily corrupted Sister, though granted we haven't, (so far as I know), gotten the complete lowdown on Laeral's adventure with the Crown of Horns, beyond some excellent stuff in "Blackstaff". This is probably unjust, but a change like this also reeks a bit of "we didn't like it, so we changed it", especially at this time. As Kuje mentioned, a couple Chosen are already dead, (though wasn't Khelben Steven Schend's call?)
I'd say Faerun needs its heroes these days. Dark and gritty and lots of gloom, (and, in the case of swords and sorcery settings, lots of barren wastes crawling with beasties), is the new hip in fantasy -- where would, (or where will), the Realms be without its heroes?
My feelings going into "Ascendancy", (apologies if any of this seems out of date; I think I wrote some of it around the time "Storm of the Dead" came out, but I don't think I ever posted it):
Like many others, I'm not thrilled about this shake up in the drow pantheon, particularly not when there are so many other RSEs going on at the same time. From my stand point it could be worse: most of the shaking up has involved evil powers getting whacked, and I'll take good over evil any day. Yet I'd rather Vhaeraun and Selvatarm remained active, because I like them as antagonists and find them interesting. I think that, in general, the higher powers and greater magics of the Realms have been played a little fast and loose in this series thus far, with an eye more toward sensationalism and pot-stirring than long-term consequence. [Which does not mean I don't think Lisa Smedman is a good author.]
At the same time, (and this is entirely my opinion), I think the WotC editorial plotters, (not sure how much say the individual authors get in the outcome of the RSEs they write), have written themselves into something of a hole here. They've established that what we are seeing is the culmination of Lolth and Eilistraee's great game, and that the winner of this final struggle will "take all". They have repeatedly emphasized this, to the point at which anything less as an outcome would seem cheesy and make the initial build up look like unfounded hype. So, (assuming no genius twists), either A: Lolth wins completely, or B: Eilistraee wins completely. Given those options, I'd have no hesitation in rooting for Eilistraee. Suffice it to say that such an uncompromising victory for an evil so undeniably slimey as Lolth would make me very unhappy. It would also reinforce in my mind the vague impression, (not sure where I picked it up), that 4 E is slated to be an overly gloomy, PC-centric slugfest. Add in the fact that I like Eilistraee, (yep; bias), and also that while I think Lolth is a great villain I believe she's had her day and I don't really like her. Despite the fact that we're unhappy about all these evil drow deities dying off, is there anyone who would really dance for joy if Lolth won in as utter a way as would be the case here? Personally, I kind of like the drow how they are for the moment, and like others have said before part of Eilistraee's appeal is that she's the underdog. There's something very arresting about the faint glimmer of light fighting against overwhelming darkness. In short, I'd rather they didn't feel the need to shake things up so badly, but if they really are going to finish off one of these two, I think it should be Lolth. Shame she's far too popular.
There's also this, from "This Year in Drizztland": "I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now?" (Orc King Prelude, 'round about page 11)
Oh, ... crap.
I know its petty, but I could quit 4 E over this.
Right now, I see Nbnmare's predictions as the best way this can all possibly go down.
I suppose, as Kentinal said, we'll just have to wait and see the book. Roll on the last Lady Penitent, [otherwise known as: "The War of the Spider Queen: For Really Reals This Time"].
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| nbnmare |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 20:15:29
Change and corruption are not synonymous. Corruption is merely one type of change, and it is always a change for the worse (the dictionary uses terms such as "perverted", "tainted", and "infected"). Certainly in the case of followers of Lolth becoming worshippers of Vhaeraun, "worse" is entirely subjective; in fact, many would argue that switching from a incredibly powerful, violent, unpredictable, utterly evil deity to a less powerful, far more subtle, and somewhat more rational evil deity could even be construed as an improvement. "Converted" would be a much more appropriate term in this instance.
To me, the Lady Penitent trilogy does not seem to be heading towards Eilistraee's death at all. My personal predictions for the outcome of Ascendancy of the Last: Lolth loses the portfolio of "the drow race" (though no other deity is able to claim it and she remains a Greater Power), Eilistraee either permanently becomes CN or rids herself of Vhaeraun's portfolio, and Ghaundaur becomes a Greater Power (perhaps by absorbing some or all of Vhaeraun's portfolio; "evil activity on the surface" would be an especially good fit, since then his minions would be active both above and below ground.) If Eilistraee does get rid of Vhaeraun's portfolio, then that deity's return, perhaps as a demipower, is also a possibility. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 19:02:52
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
"Corrupted" implies a shift from good to evil. In the case of Qilue, I have the impression the change is more like good to neutrality; I certainly wouldn't be surprised if her 4th Edition alignment is CN (that is, if she's still around in the new edition). In fact, I rather suspect the 4E Eilistraee will be CN, unless she somehow rids herself of Vhaeraun's portfolio.
Corrupted means a change from current outlook. Lolth clerics have been corupted by her son, they did not give up evil but acepted another outlook. If Qilue moves from "Good" and there is clearly signs of that her outlook has changed, this because of events.
All in all based on what little we know about the book it is clearly hard to know who assends and what form the Ascendancy takes.
4th design tends to lend to idea that Eilistraee dies, though perhaps Qilue becomes a servant of Lolth as a demipower. *shrugs* We need to see the book. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 18:32:43
"Corrupted" implies a shift from good to evil. In the case of Qilue, I have the impression the change is more like good to neutrality; I certainly wouldn't be surprised if her 4th Edition alignment is CN (that is, if she's still around in the new edition). In fact, I rather suspect the 4E Eilistraee will be CN, unless she somehow rids herself of Vhaeraun's portfolio. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 15:59:27
Heroes become dull if they are not challenged in some way...but then, I never was a fan of heroes. Give me a good villian any time...and a corrupted Qilue would be a great one. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 15:42:43
And there are some definite clues in this series so far that Qilue is being "messed with" (that is, becoming corrupted). |
| Kuje |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 00:09:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
All I can say to that is they had better not do that. If the powers that be do not like the chosen why can't they just not write about them and let us decide their fates? If they start Bumping off the chosen or perverting them so soon into 4e, I am really starting to think there is someone wanting to change all things Ed!!
I like this series and where it is heading so i don't want to see Quilue Messed with!
You mean like killing Khelben and Sylune, so far. :) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 21:27:56
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Regarding Ascendency of the Last: now I have to wonder who exactly it is on the cover, since it clearly is not Q'arlynd.
Worst case scenario: it will turn out to be a corrupted Qilue.
All I can say to that is they had better not do that. If the powers that be do not like the chosen why can't they just not write about them and let us decide their fates? If they start Bumping off the chosen or perverting them so soon into 4e, I am really starting to think there is someone wanting to change all things Ed!!
I like this series and where it is heading so i don't want to see Quilue Messed with! |
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