| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 09:58:59
Well met
I wished to set up this scroll for discussions on the upcoming conclusion to the War of the Spider Queen series - Resurrection, by Paul S Kemp. There are already of fair number of scrolls discussing various aspects of this novel, but please post here to give any reviews 
Just for summary, other scrolls on this novel can be viewed here:
Resurrection (WotSQ VI) Sample Chapter
Predictions on WOTSQ conclusion
Yor'thae of Lolth (Poll)
Ressurection Availibility Update
In addition, please use the search function to locate discussions of other novels in the War of the Spider Queen series which lead up to this very much anticipated conclusion.
If you wish to ask the author any questions on this novel, please go to the Questions for Paul S Kemp scroll. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| dern.whitecinder |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 06:25:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Finder Wyvernspur has Rot. He's changed it from simply being the death and decay of organic things to the cycle of life -- existing things decaying and giving birth to something new. He also applies this to art, with stagnant works of art (including his own earlier works) giving birth to new works of art.
Yep, I knew from P&P and F&P that Finder technically had it, but his F&P entry also mentions that Lolth and two-three others (Gargauth & Talona I think, don't have my book handy] were after Old Moldy's portfolio. And Lolth was supposedly impersonating OM to grant divine spells.
Anyways, I found my answer in the the preview chapter for Ms. Smedman's latest in the Lady Penitant series. (I'd say more Wooly, but I wouldn't want to ruin the surprise, and it probably doesn't belong in this particular scroll anyhoo.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 16:48:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]
Finder Wyvernspur has Rot. He's changed it from simply being the death and decay of organic things to the cycle of life -- existing things decaying and giving birth to something new.
So he's become a nicer version of Nurgle, so to speak? 0.o
Uh... Dunno. I've never really paid attention to the Chaos Gods. It if ain't Leman Russ or the Emperor, it ain't worth paying attention to. 
Aye. Nurgle would probably be a somewhat more appropriate fit for Moander, rather than Finder. Of course, if the Plaguebearers were to start appearing among Finder's faithful, then that's another story. 
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 11:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]
Finder Wyvernspur has Rot. He's changed it from simply being the death and decay of organic things to the cycle of life -- existing things decaying and giving birth to something new.
So he's become a nicer version of Nurgle, so to speak? 0.o
Uh... Dunno. I've never really paid attention to the Chaos Gods. It if ain't Leman Russ or the Emperor, it ain't worth paying attention to. |
| khorne |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 10:41:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]
Finder Wyvernspur has Rot. He's changed it from simply being the death and decay of organic things to the cycle of life -- existing things decaying and giving birth to something new.
So he's become a nicer version of Nurgle, so to speak? 0.o |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 01:37:21
quote:
Originally posted by dern.whitecinder
By the end of Resurrection, has there been any official determination if Lolth's portfolio has changed? Specifically, does she now offically "own" Rot (beyond just answering prayers pretending to be Moander)?
(Sorry if this has already been answered, but I couldn't find it via my newbie search attempts.)
Finder Wyvernspur has Rot. He's changed it from simply being the death and decay of organic things to the cycle of life -- existing things decaying and giving birth to something new. He also applies this to art, with stagnant works of art (including his own earlier works) giving birth to new works of art. |
| dern.whitecinder |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 21:53:02
By the end of Resurrection, has there been any official determination if Lolth's portfolio has changed? Specifically, does she now offically "own" Rot (beyond just answering prayers pretending to be Moander)?
(Sorry if this has already been answered, but I couldn't find it via my newbie search attempts.) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:19:15
Depends on the author, I'd say. Steven King would've probably punched out the entire thing in 2 years, Tolkien in 20...
Personally, I rather read a good series and wait for the sequels (the gods know how I waited on "The Last Command" to come out) than read a chopped up series where continuity becomes an issue over time... should any author's read this, please please please take no offense, you all did a great job of pulling that monster together... in all honesty I think it was the scripting and editing that could have used more time to develop. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:11:13
I agree it would have been nice to have only 1 author for all 6 hard-covers
but how long would it have taken then to write the whole series? |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:09:09
Hear hear! |
| Crust |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 20:36:27
I wish the books had been written by one author. There was bound to be some character confusion and a lack of continuity, etc. Jim Lowder would have been a good choice. He should be doing more FR novels. I miss him. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 02:20:43
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Actually, I was a little perplexed by everone assuming she's a greater power now. I thought that the book was about her rising from a lesser power to an intermediate power. I.e. it brought the world up to speed with the campaign setting, not that it covered it.
She's been a intermediate power since 1e, or at least 2e. And Paul, I believe it was Paul, said the point of the series was to raise her from intermediate to greater.
Indeed.
A little from Paul (note this includes SPOILERS from Resurrection) -
NOTE: You'll need to highlight the section to read it.
"I can only speculate but the fact that Lolth is greater now than before does suggest there is something more to divine rank than simply the number of worshippers. This makes some sense. If Lolth was powered purely by number of worshippers, it would make little sense for her to encourage the kind of internecine house warfare that she does. After all, every obliterated house represents worshippers lost. Perhaps there are a multitude of factors that contribute to a deity's power, including, possibly, the molding and ultimate melding with an exemplar of the faith (in this case, the Yor'thae), or the risking of the divine existence on a ploy that embodies the very ethos of the god (as happened with Lolth here)." |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 01:55:02
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Actually, I was a little perplexed by everone assuming she's a greater power now. I thought that the book was about her rising from a lesser power to an intermediate power. I.e. it brought the world up to speed with the campaign setting, not that it covered it.
She's been a intermediate power since 1e, or at least 2e. And Paul, I believe it was Paul, said the point of the series was to raise her from intermediate to greater. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 01:50:00
Actually, I was a little perplexed by everone assuming she's a greater power now. I thought that the book was about her rising from a lesser power to an intermediate power. I.e. it brought the world up to speed with the campaign setting, not that it covered it.
|
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 16:14:13
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The freedom to change aspect, I think, didn't refer to character changes per se, the characters were displayed fine enough, most of the time, but to changes in Realms-feel including consequences etc.
Nothing changed, which is the bottom line for the series, which is kinda sorta sad
I enjoyed all the books equally..and Pharaun's death really didn't bother me...they were all evil and at anytime in the series they would have killed each other when they felt someoen became useless or a burden...taht is the nature of evil, it turns upon itself sooner or later..
but my gripe is the same as yours...nothing really changed in the end...unless the year 2007 will be the "Year of the Spider" and will reflect Lolth's greater power status  |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 15:56:54
The freedom to change aspect, I think, didn't refer to character changes per se, the characters were displayed fine enough, most of the time, but to changes in Realms-feel including consequences etc.
Nothing changed, which is the bottom line for the series, which is kinda sorta sad |
| Paec_djinn |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 15:37:37
quote:
On a different note (and sorry if this has been mentioned before, there's no way I'm reading this many pages about a book I don't like), if you could choose one author to write the entire WotSQ series, who would it be? Assume they're actually given enough freedom to change some things.
I think most of the authors have equal claim to this. But for me, it eventually falls to Paul S. Kemp and Richard Baker. But I still think that the series was good as it is. Aside from the lack of freedom to change things, which falls under editing, all the authors did well. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 14:47:30
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
On a different note (and sorry if this has been mentioned before, there's no way I'm reading this many pages about a book I don't like), if you could choose one author to write the entire WotSQ series, who would it be? Assume they're actually given enough freedom to change some things.
Richard Byers or Richard Baker. Both did a terrific job with their respective book. Plus, with Byers being Pharaun's creator, there's a chance he might have survived the last book and made the whole series at least tolerable instead of the teeth-gnashing anger that rises in me whenever I think of it. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 00:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I said it before, but I'm gonna say it again:
The general idea of WotSQ was brilliant, the execution of said plan was occassionally just as good, but what really bugged me was the lack of interest shown by the Seldarine. Some of the infighting amongst the party could've been toned down, since it became annoying after a while, and we could have seen another group in action, this group being champions sent from any elven realm to STOP the drow.
It seems to me that this story was somehow in a controlled environment that is cut off from the rest of the world.
Which is why I'm gonna let my group run against the drow when we get to that point in the timeline, it just makes so much more sense.
I agree with a lot of what you say here. I'm not sure though that the Seldarine wasn't interested, but that, as you said, the books are presented more or less in a controlled environment. It would be interesting to see a "Shadows of the Avatar" style book or two or three that show various parts of the story from a different angle, with different characters. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 00:53:39
Jim Lowder |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 23:36:29
I'm growing more and more glad that I never bothered to read the last two books. I stopped at Book 4 and made up my own ending. And I think I'm happier for it.
On a different note (and sorry if this has been mentioned before, there's no way I'm reading this many pages about a book I don't like), if you could choose one author to write the entire WotSQ series, who would it be? Assume they're actually given enough freedom to change some things. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 22:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Someone remarked earlier that had Ryld died while bonking Halisstra, or something, her turn back to Lolth'd have been much more convincing.
That someone would've been me 
That nothing basically changed in the big picture, aside from Lolth gettinge her own realm in...hell, was what bugged me most. So many promising ideas, so much potential, especially with characters, and all of it was wasted.
What I found more than a little disturbing was that the fugue plane doesn't seem of any importance to either the drow, or the concept.
*shrug* I keep it with the good old much ado about nothing |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 16:47:53
Annd finished.
While it's much better than Annihilation, it's still something of a mess. But then, I don't think any writer could salvage the trainwreck that is Annihilation, short of waving a magic wand over it. It's also, ultimately, underwhelming. Nothing's changed, and unless you're aware of game mechanics, the series probably feels incredibly hollow. So Lolth moves her home. So... what? So nothing. The status quo is restored. Hurrah. What was the point of the series again?
Halisstra still remains painfully out-of-character. The sheer idiocy with her attitude toward Danifae's astounding and makes one wonder how she's survived in Ched Nasad all this long. I'm sorry, but a religious conversion doesn't mean a brain transplant (or is it a lobotomy? I swear, by this book she's operating on just a spinal cord!), and here we see again the eyeroll-worthy attitude so many fantasy novelists seem to hold: good and stupid are one and the same, and you can't possibly be a good person without being a naive imbecile. The Lady Penitent thing is just... silly. Someone remarked earlier that had Ryld died while bonking Halisstra, or something, her turn back to Lolth'd have been much more convincing. As it is, she just comes off as a sniveling, spineless bint who swings back and forth, back and forth, and angsts ad nauseum. Hardly the same woman seen in the first four books.
I still don't know why Jeggred follows Danifae rather than Quenthel, especially since in this book, Big Q regains her strength both magically and emotionally. Both Philip Athans and Paul S. Kemp make a big deal about Danifae's ability to seduce, but I still find it unconvincing. Are we to believe that all males think with their genitals? Normally, I enjoy an intelligent, manipulative character. But this? Please. Danifae's pitted against blocks of brick. Retarded blocks of brick. There's nothing to be proud of in manipulating the terminally stupid. I also don't see why Quenthel hasn't killed Danifae before. Again, completely unconvincing, and suspension of disbelief goes snap! once more in the face of blatant, reeking plot contrivances that are so obvious I can see the strings attached to the characters as the author pulls them. The parade of stupidities, if nothing else, certainly lives up to Annihilation.
The combat scenes are, thankfully, much less mechanical and much less dull than those in Annihilation. Yay. I just wish I could say the same of the plot and characterization (though I suppose that, had Paul S. Kemp characterize the main characters differently than they were in the previous book, the continuity'd look even worse). I also find it mildly funny that pretty much all the interesting characters (Ryld, Pharaun) are killed or reduced to infantile shadows of themselves (Halisstra), and only the ones who are completely predictable and boring survive (Quenthel, Danifae, Nimor, etc). |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 12:37:53
I said it before, but I'm gonna say it again:
The general idea of WotSQ was brilliant, the execution of said plan was occassionally just as good, but what really bugged me was the lack of interest shown by the Seldarine. Some of the infighting amongst the party could've been toned down, since it became annoying after a while, and we could have seen another group in action, this group being champions sent from any elven realm to STOP the drow.
It seems to me that this story was somehow in a controlled environment that is cut off from the rest of the world.
Which is why I'm gonna let my group run against the drow when we get to that point in the timeline, it just makes so much more sense. |
| Ian-DV8 |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 15:47:30
The matriarchy was never a huge selling point to me. I think her switching to a patriarchy would have been more interesting. That is one of my problems with series' that claim to have Realms shaking events. When the last book comes out it is always a return to the status quo. Oh well, hopefully Pharaun will be ressurected someday and I won't feel so bad for having WotSQ maintaining such a prominent space on my bookshelf.
Speaking of that witty mage, did any of the other authos ever touch on his having been dissected by Lloth when the matron mohter of his family chose to sacrifice him? I can't remember, I seem to remember it being mentioned in passing a couple of times...I read too much hard to keep it all retained ;) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:41:55
point conceded.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:16:26
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
That's not their appeal for me... I like an evil but somewhat civilized race. The matriarchy angle holds zero appeal for me.
I thought the Drow were the most chaotic and uncivilized race aside from Orcs, they have random acts of mass murder followed by "forgetting." So I never particularly saw them as 'civilized.'
The matriarchy angle just seems to be one of their main selling points as its a change from patriarchal cultures so prevalent in fantasy.
They build and maintain self-sufficient cities and societies, lasting for centuries or millenia. They have schools, churches, entertainment, viable economies including trade with other races, armed forces... They may be evil and depraved, but I don't see how anyone can say they don't have a civilization. That's what I was referring to -- not how they act, but how they live. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 00:47:29
quote:
That's not their appeal for me... I like an evil but somewhat civilized race. The matriarchy angle holds zero appeal for me.
I thought the Drow were the most chaotic and uncivilized race aside from Orcs, they have random acts of mass murder followed by "forgetting." So I never particularly saw them as 'civilized.'
The matriarchy angle just seems to be one of their main selling points as its a change from patriarchal cultures so prevalent in fantasy.
and didn't I just say no-drizzt :-) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Aug 2006 : 20:13:18
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Not to put too fine of a point on it but the whole appeal of the Drow is they're a monster matriarchy. The "attractive evil women with whips" thing that has been part of the Drow since the old Vault of the Drow modules.
That's not their appeal for me... I like an evil but somewhat civilized race. The matriarchy angle holds zero appeal for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
And I point out this story has nothing to do with Drizzt. Drizzt takes a lot of flak (partially his author's doing) but a lot of it is unwarranted.
And since this thread has nothing to do with Drizzt, let's not talk about him.
|
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 22 Aug 2006 : 19:57:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ian-DV8
It's been said before but I was really put off by the way this series ended. Yes Lloth is a greater deity now but really other than the destruction of a few(I think it was a few) Drow cities it was a return to the status quo. For those who say " but she is a greater deity now!!" so what. She was always a greater deity to here followers. I would have liked to have seen a change to a patriarchy honestly. How much chaos would that have wrought? Answer:plenty. But instead what we have is the same old thing. Maybe we can move on and get some official stories about Vhaeraun and his "Surface Drow", Gods know I am sick to death of Menzoberazan(sp?) and that damn Drizzt.
Not to put too fine of a point on it but the whole appeal of the Drow is they're a monster matriarchy. The "attractive evil women with whips" thing that has been part of the Drow since the old Vault of the Drow modules.
And I point out this story has nothing to do with Drizzt. Drizzt takes a lot of flak (partially his author's doing) but a lot of it is unwarranted.
|
| Faramicos |
Posted - 22 Aug 2006 : 11:17:14
Perhaps it is a way to seperate the strong from the weak... The entire deity of Lloth is focused around the idea of survival of the fittest (mind and muscle) and a major conflict like this have most definately removed some of the weak members of the drow society. But i will say that it seems a little bit drastic to me. Instead of removing weak links in the form of individuals or perhaps even houses she ups the odds by pitting the strength of entire cities against her dogma of constant natural selection. Her plan succeeded in my mind, weak cities fell and the strong survived. But i cant figure out whether or not the huge losses were worth it. If we look at the gods as getting their power from the amount of worshippers she must have suffered a devastating blow on this acount...
Cant figure all of the affairs out and find the overall logic in her plot... But it sure is an entertaining aftermath to the books. An interesting discusion. |
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