| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 23:20:11
DragonReader posted this over at Worlds of D&D:
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978078694157/078694157X/Expidition+to+Undermountain+A+DD+Adventure+Supplement?
The best part is . . . notice the authors?  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 12:07:18
I started running the adventure for 2 players who have 2 characters each. One guy almost got himself killed because he HAD to kill the Mimic early on and the other guy's characters didn't want to help. Very stubborn for level 1. I fudged the dice a wee bit but if he thinks he can survive everything down here, well the next stupid move like this he does I am NOT fudging the dice and he will have to make a new character...too bad so sad. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 23:50:06
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Question. What are the good points for this sourcebook? I'm interested in getting it, mainly for any new lore and to run an Undermountain adventure (though I'll be keep Halaster alive). Is it worth it?
I own it, and was sad because the adventures were only for chars level 1-10. I really like the detailed description of the Yawning Portal at the beginning. I may yet still use it, but not right now. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 23:41:22
Question. What are the good points for this sourcebook? I'm interested in getting it, mainly for any new lore and to run an Undermountain adventure (though I'll be keep Halaster alive). Is it worth it? |
| Aewrik |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 00:48:19
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I did not read through all 7 pages of posts, but I grabbed this and thought it strange that WOTC tried to make this a generic module.
I think it's because of the tactics layout, and the sheer size of the dungeon.
Does anyone know if a dungeon this size has ever been published before? |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 02:13:57
Some of these first time printing maps are gonna make my huge UM Campaign easier. Level 9 looks fairly easy to replicate with Dungon Tiles (except a few spots but no biggie when you have a dry erase mat) |
| scererar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 01:44:40
I did not read through all 7 pages of posts, but I grabbed this and thought it strange that WOTC tried to make this a generic module. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 23:26:39
Funny thing about this product is that the side view of all the levels looks like a more colorful version of one that I made myself (before this product was released) for a campaign using the information in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. (which I did to SEE where all the levels were)....actually, mine has all the sublevels on it :P so it is more accurate, just not as pretty to look at. I could scan it and put it online if anyone is interested. |
| Drunken Master |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 16:13:03
I'm saddened by the death of Halaster, as he was probably my all-time favorite behind-the-scenes bad guy. But you know what? He had a really good, long run, and even the mightiest wizards are not indestructible. I'm interested to see where Undermountain goes from here. These changes are part of what makes the Realms such a cool, living, breathing world; no matter how many centuries something may last, ultimately nothing is permanent. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 15:46:03
The Twisted Rune manipulates a spell/ritual he's working on. |
| Calrond |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 04:25:31
I don't mean to sound too new to the Realms, but what could kill Halaster in the first place? I know that Larloch, Elminster, the Simbul, etc. could probably kill him, and I know that the high level mages aren't invincible, but do we know yet what finally does him in? (Elminster made a sort of passive-aggressive threat in Skullport in Realms of the Underdark, but I doubt it would be Elminster without a good reason.) My first suspect would be the drow, with a handful of priestesses and mages attacking Halaster...and I really don't have a second suspect. Is it known what kills him? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 03:58:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Have you a link to that? I should like to know the rationale behind it...
Sure.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12880343&postcount=410
Here are the important bits (from Rich Baker):
quote:
No, the level parameters didn't really lead us to Halaster's fate. Really, it was just the fact that we were doing an Undermountain product for the first time in almost 10 years, and we felt that it was time to show off some different stories about Undermountain. A lot of folks won't agree with this reasoning, but here it is: I want to hook a new generation of Undermountain fans, not cater to the more particular demands of the existing Undermountain fans. Every now and then the comic books go back and do SpiderMan #1 again (or whatever), and retell the origin story with a new take on it. That's how we look at our "nostalgia" titles.
...
However, there is an important caveat: If we haven't published on some topic in many years, I am much more interested in creating the best "current-game" product inspired by the old material than remaining slavishly loyal to what went before. Again, I understand that's a viewpoint that many of the folks here will take issue with. But I feel that it's important to keep Realms alive and vibrant with a constant influx of new fans who aren't burdened by the weight of twenty years of lore. We make decisions to keep the barrier of entry low and the playability to a non-FR fan high so that more core D&D players will be inclined to give Realms a try.
I'd like to note that I am not one of those who would consider the old lore a "burden". And again, I understand the goal the devs were aiming at, I'm just not sure how removing Halaster was conducive to that. My opinion. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 03:27:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't have this book and I can't judge it as an adventure, but the "major event" at the very beginning (and yes, I too thought it was strange how it was right at the beginning) also happens to be a "major turnoff" for me. I read the rationale for why said event was done the way it was on the WotC Designer Q&A thread, and while I understand what the designers were trying to do, I can't say I agree with how they did it.
Have you a link to that? I should like to know the rationale behind it... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 02:42:34
I don't have this book and I can't judge it as an adventure, but the "major event" at the very beginning (and yes, I too thought it was strange how it was right at the beginning) also happens to be a "major turnoff" for me. I read the rationale for why said event was done the way it was on the WotC Designer Q&A thread, and while I understand what the designers were trying to do, I can't say I agree with how they did it. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 00:58:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
If you response is to what i wrote then:
Everybody have a right to an opinion, and that’s mine sorry to say.
Fore a site like this there should be room to say something that isn’t god, and this product is crappy lousy to be honest, and I am not the only one with that opinion.
To be honest the only thing I regret is that I can’t find more polite words that what I have used 
Please respect that people can have a different way of seeing things, and lets talk again when you have read it all ! 
Mod edit: Watch the language, people. Profanity is specifically prohibited by the CoC.
Yes, my response was to your post. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and is free to state that opinion.
However, I stand by my response. If you want the complete history of an area, don't expect to find it in an adventure module. If you want complete maps of an area, don't expect to find them in an adventure module -- unless every single room is detailed in the module. And since we've had hundreds of pages devoted to a small area of the upper levels of Undermountain, expecting a single adventure module to reprise all that info, and add to it, is just plain ridiculous.
This is not a sourcebook, and it was never claimed that it was. Your post indicates that you made the mistake of anticipating a sourcebook. That is what I am responding to -- the complaint that a product is not more than it was always stated to be.
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me if people don't like this adventure. I'm not all that happy with it, myself. But I'm not going to complain that this adventure module wasn't a sourcebook and didn't do what a sourcebook does, because I've always known that this was an adventure.
If you don't like something, that's fine. Critique what the product is -- not what it isn't.
Sorry fore the lack of nice words, but this incomplete adventure shouldn’t have been published at all.
I rest my case, and I am sorry if I offended you Wooly Rupert
Peace
Vic 
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 22:54:05
It may have worked for some people and not for others. I kind of liked it, although I do wish that the "major event" had been revealed a bit more slowly rather than up front. On the other hand, its possible that this event is going to be followed up on in products in the future, and in the end, we will get that background material that we all seem to really want about the event.
As far as the adventure being somehow the absolute worst of anything, that would be difficult to prove, given that some scribes here enjoyed it, and I can attest that others I have had conversations with online have enjoyed it as well. It may not appeal to everyone, and there may be aspects that aren't to everyone's liking, but I think I would enjoy discussion what does and doesn't make for a good adventure than abjectly writing something off. But that's just my opinion.
For what its worth I've actually read posts from several avid Realms players from 2nd edition that haven't given the setting a try in 3rd/3.5, but when they picked this adventure up, they decided to run a Waterdeep/UnderMountain campaign because it inspired nostalgia for the "old days" in them. So there must be something redeeming in it for some people.
I don't expect everyone to like the adventure, I'm just saying that its far from obvious that its a poor quality product. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 21:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
If you response is to what i wrote then:
Everybody have a right to an opinion, and that’s mine sorry to say.
Fore a site like this there should be room to say something that isn’t god, and this product is crappy lousy to be honest, and I am not the only one with that opinion.
To be honest the only thing I regret is that I can’t find more polite words that what I have used
Please respect that people can have a different way of seeing things, and lets talk again when you have read it all !
Yes, my response was to your post. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and is free to state that opinion.
However, I stand by my response. If you want the complete history of an area, don't expect to find it in an adventure module. If you want complete maps of an area, don't expect to find them in an adventure module -- unless every single room is detailed in the module. And since we've had hundreds of pages devoted to a small area of the upper levels of Undermountain, expecting a single adventure module to reprise all that info, and add to it, is just plain ridiculous.
This is not a sourcebook, and it was never claimed that it was. Your post indicates that you made the mistake of anticipating a sourcebook. That is what I am responding to -- the complaint that a product is not more than it was always stated to be.
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me if people don't like this adventure. I'm not all that happy with it, myself. But I'm not going to complain that this adventure module wasn't a sourcebook and didn't do what a sourcebook does, because I've always known that this was an adventure.
If you don't like something, that's fine. Critique what the product is -- not what it isn't. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 20:57:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think that's both harsh and misleading.
Incomplete maps and history? Well, what do you expect? This is an adventure, and a generic one, at that. We previously had two boxed sets, and it was pretty much openly stated that those only scratched the surface, so to speak. Can you honestly expect an adventure module to recreate and add to all that information, as well as adding the necessary material for the adventure? There was never any promise to update and include everything already known. I can't see why people are angry that the module fails to live up to a promise that was never made.
As for the adventure itself being incomplete... I've not read it all, yet, but from everything I've read, it is indeed a complete adventure. It certainly leaves the reader wondering about the aftermath of the adventure, but I'd hesitate to call that a failing of the module.
I can't say I'm happy that the adventure was generic, nor am I happy about its outcome. And I'm not happy about the fact that the vast bulk of Undermountain was left untouched and un-updated. However, I walked in knowing that this was the case. I think it is most unreasonable for people to complain that the module didn't live up to their own misconceived expectations.
If you response is to what i wrote then:
Everybody have a right to an opinion, and that’s mine sorry to say.
Fore a site like this there should be room to say something that isn’t god, and this product is crappy lousy to be honest, and I am not the only one with that opinion.
To be honest the only thing I regret is that I can’t find more polite words that what I have used
Please respect that people can have a different way of seeing things, and lets talk again when you have read it all !
Mod edit: Watch the language, people. Profanity is specifically prohibited by the CoC. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 20:10:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd like to see the Manshoon clone that was living with Hally replace him. We actually don't know if that clone is still around, but it would be cool to use him that way. I'd have him grab some of the bits of Halaster's soul, and use that to change all the existing spells and such to be tied to him.
Wow, that is a *great* and mischievous (and evil ;) idea, Wooly!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 20:04:37
I think that's both harsh and misleading.
Incomplete maps and history? Well, what do you expect? This is an adventure, and a generic one, at that. We previously had two boxed sets, and it was pretty much openly stated that those only scratched the surface, so to speak. Can you honestly expect an adventure module to recreate and add to all that information, as well as adding the necessary material for the adventure? There was never any promise to update and include everything already known. I can't see why people are angry that the module fails to live up to a promise that was never made.
As for the adventure itself being incomplete... I've not read it all, yet, but from everything I've read, it is indeed a complete adventure. It certainly leaves the reader wondering about the aftermath of the adventure, but I'd hesitate to call that a failing of the module.
I can't say I'm happy that the adventure was generic, nor am I happy about its outcome. And I'm not happy about the fact that the vast bulk of Undermountain was left untouched and un-updated. However, I walked in knowing that this was the case. I think it is most unreasonable for people to complain that the module didn't live up to their own misconceived expectations. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 19:09:09
I must admit that this product is the biggest disappointment regarding D&D products in 2007
I can’t recommend any, to by this unfinished product.
What will you find?
- Uncompleted maps
- Uncompleted Adventure
- Uncompleted History
The only thing that made me happy after reading this was that it isn’t a Forgotten Realms Product.
And by the way I would like to see that old insane mage back in under mountain |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 18:06:42
Oh, and I found another reference to using clairvoyance within Undermountain. I am still puzzled about that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 18:05:58
I'd like to see the Manshoon clone that was living with Hally replace him. We actually don't know if that clone is still around, but it would be cool to use him that way. I'd have him grab some of the bits of Halaster's soul, and use that to change all the existing spells and such to be tied to him. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 15:49:49
Two things:
First of all, it's a a shame that they killed Halaster. I liked that demented freak! Undermountain was never boring when you had to face the possibility that a 30+ level insane wizard would drop in to see hwo you were doing. (Granted, it still isn't boring, but Halaster had the insane crackle I so love in villains.)
Secondly, am I wrong, or does EtU use some information from the Tome of Nine Swords?
Thanks all! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 00:06:24
This may be an odd question, or my lack of knowledge about the rules may be showing here... But, if you can't scry out of Undermountain (page 11), then how does Errya Eltorchul use clairvoyance to see into Ellithral the Golden's room in The Yawning Portal (page 48)?
(Incidentally, this did make me think of an interesting spell for physically moving messages between places... ) |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 20:53:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Well, in this case my strong suspicion is that four writers were used so as to generate the product in a great hurry, because (I believe) it was moved up in the schedule.
Yeah it's exactly what I thougt, with emphasis on great.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I know that Ed's work involved the summary of levels and the presentation of the Yawning Portal (not the starting adventures). I flatly disagree with Skeptic about it being reprinted, because the wordcount made it necessary for Ed to summarize existing levels in new wording (much shorter) and "fill in" all the "blank" levels in as few paragraphs as possible (again, because of space limitations).
Well, I hope they contain new content, but even a nicely done summary of existing printed lore is not enough for me when I see a product signed by the best FR designers.
For example, the organisations part contains lore about the Eye that was printed in 2E two times (City of Splendors and Cloack and Dagger), than re-printed in LoD, then again in CoS:W!
I'm not angry at Ed, Eric Boyd or SKR, but if I had spent money on it, I would have feel cheated by WOTC. |
| Eremite |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 10:27:28
My biggest complaint was in relation the maps. I understand that no product is ever going to be able to cover Undermountain but I think it is reasonable to expect that the maps would be complete... especially when the maps already exist! |
| Abulon |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 03:35:55
Sorry about my comments, it was just an opinion. I think it is normal for us, customers, to express suggestions for better products. I did not trash about the authors cause it is not their faults and who I like or not is subjective and personal.
For Snotlord: Eric wrote chapter 2 and Sean K. Reynolds wrote chapter 3 and 5. (From the board of SKR)
|
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 02:37:16
Well, in this case my strong suspicion is that four writers were used so as to generate the product in a great hurry, because (I believe) it was moved up in the schedule.
I know that Ed's work involved the summary of levels and the presentation of the Yawning Portal (not the starting adventures). I flatly disagree with Skeptic about it being reprinted, because the wordcount made it necessary for Ed to summarize existing levels in new wording (much shorter) and "fill in" all the "blank" levels in as few paragraphs as possible (again, because of space limitations). Ed was very pleased because he finally got some contact NPCs for the Portal into print (nice illos and all), so the Portal can serve as a "jumping off point." He was far less pleased about the maps.
The problem is the generic D&D format is fine for encounters, but there's no room for presenting something with the sheer size and scope of Undermountain. That's why it was called EXPEDITION to Undermountain (which - - if the word "into" was substituted for "to" - - makes the title quite accurate). What the product is NOT (unfortunately) is "Here's all of Undermountain done properly for 3.5." As Ed told me in an e-mail, that would have taken about 90 books this size. 
love to all,
THO |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 01:57:25
I think I've seen Chris Lindsay at a convention back in 2002 or 2003, while playing in the Living City campaign, and I recall that he's a good guy (i.e. he's good on the good/evil axis, but I have no clue if he's LG, NG or CG...  ) |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 00:30:18
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What's the advantage supposed to be?
Supplement each other? I would guess SKR is the rules-savvy of the lot, Ed supplied the lore, and Eric the current events and obscure references.
I'm not sure I've seen Lindsay before. |
|
|
