| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Snow |
Posted - 13 Sep 2006 : 22:04:02
As many of you know, Murdane was the Goddess of Pragmatism and Reason in the Faerunian pantheon. As well, she was Helm' lover. Her early and mysterious demise occurred during the Dawn Cataclysm due to Lathander's machinations.
Not much else is known about her or written about her. But she sounds interesting!
My mission now, is to give her stats for 3.5 D&D gaming in the Forgotten Realms.
PORTFOLIOS =
DOMAINS =
PREFERRED WEAPON =
ALIGNMENT & CLERICAL ALIGNMENT PREFERENCES =
MISCELLANEOUS =
Can anybody help provide additional information here on Murdane? 
Portfolios are definitely Reason and Pragmatism, although there could be more. I would assume her alignment is LN, with all her clerics toeing a similar line. Domains I need to think about a bit. That could be tricky.
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| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 06:16:25
Oh, I agree with you that it is not a strong argument, merely a factor to consider. 
I think that lovers are often (but not always) attracted by their similar outlooks. Lawful people I think even more prefer to hang with lawful people. Whereas chaotic and neutral folks are more tolerant of other philosophies and therefore likely to date outside their alignment.
But you are right, sometimes there is no accounting for the choices love makes. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 05:49:34
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
2) Her lover was Helm, who was LN.
Not that your other reasons aren't solid (they are), but I don't think using the alignments of lovers or even relatives in this case is the best idea, because as I've seen lovers among the gods (and mortals, for that matter) can have pretty different alignments from each other. According to the novel Tymora's Luck, Lathander (NG) was once involved with Tyche, who was CN. And that is just what I can think of with a sleepy mind.
Of course a case can be made for a couple having similar alignments, I just don't find it to be particularly convincing (it's the weakest in your small list). Love is a strange thing, and the "one step" alignment rule may not apply in matters of attraction. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 02:06:24
I would advocate LN. My reasons are as follows:
1) A goddess of reason would likely have an ordered mind. She is not specifically mentioned as a goddess of logic, but if logic were also in her purview, that would strongly imply a lawful alignment.
2) Her lover was Helm, who was LN.
3) Her pragmatism portfolio implies a more neutral balance between good & evil.
Not a lot to go on, but that's my gut feeling. I would be willing to go with George's True Neutral idea as an alternative. In support of that I see that:
1) If Auppenser is her father (not confirmed) he is True Neutral and so her alignment might be close to her dad's.
2) The pragmatism portfolio might also imply a balance between law & chaos as well as good & evil.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 22:14:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think her alignment should be good (preferably LG), but that's just me. Reason and pragmatism are as beneficial to life as much as more "emotional" and mysterious things (like love) are.
They are beneficial to life, yes, but being pragmatic is more of a neutral stance, I would think. And reason is one of those things that isn't really good or evil. I'd say NG at best, and more likely either LN or even true neutal, as Krash suggested.
It's neutral...but a lot of things in life are actually neutral, and plenty of neutral things in the FR have good (or evil) deities looking after them. Then again, I'm a bit biased towards "good" in general.
Heck, even the aforementioned Love is easy to think of as good, even though it can wreak havoc on a person's life (and that's coming from a self-described romantic). There's nothing inherently evil about the ocean, storms, and the cold, but they are ruled by evil deities in this setting. I personally see life and dawn as neutral things, but they are ruled over by good deities.
In short, Murdane really could be any alignment, I suppose, but personally I like LG. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 22:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think her alignment should be good (preferably LG), but that's just me. Reason and pragmatism are as beneficial to life as much as more "emotional" and mysterious things (like love) are.
They are beneficial to life, yes, but being pragmatic is more of a neutral stance, I would think. And reason is one of those things that isn't really good or evil. I'd say NG at best, and more likely either LN or even true neutal, as Krash suggested. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 21:32:03
I think her alignment should be good (preferably LG), but that's just me. Reason and pragmatism are as beneficial to life as much as more "emotional" and mysterious things (like love) are. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 03:05:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Secrets of the Magister says that the creation of the office of the Magister occured after the Dawn Cataclysm, whereupon Azuth become the first Magister. With the ascension of Shornthal as the second Magister in 136 DR, that suggests, as I said above, that the Dawn Cataclysm may have occured before 136 DR. However, we have other later sources which state alternate dates for the DC... again, making it difficult to ascertain a specific date for the Dawn Cataclysm itself.
A literal reading might suggest that the Dawn Cataclysm happened before Azuth became Magister, sometime before 136 DR. Yet Azuth himself is included in the story of the DC, hobnobbing with the other gods in a manner that suggests he was already ascended to godhood at the time of the DC and thus the DC could not possibly have happened before 136 DR. Yet Secrets of the Magister implies it did.
But remember that Mystra is guardian of TIME as well as the weave. I think it possible that Mystra could have established the office of the Magister in response to the Dawn Cataclysm, but prior to it. She could have done this by either
1) traveling backward in time
2) using her powers of divination to see the future
3) on advice of Savras who may have foreseen the coming Dawn Catacalysm
4) using the divinatory artifact the Pale Tesseract to predict the DC
5) sending herself a message in the past from the future
6) using chronomancy
7) using any of several time-traveling portals like the ones detailed in the Perilous Gateways series of web articles on the WotC site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030402b)
It would make sense for Mystra to set things up so that the Magister would be in place to mitigate various ill effects of the DC once it was in full swing.
I don't know if Mystra really did this, but it is one possible explanation for why the date in Secrets of the Magister is somewhat out of whack with other clues.
Consider also that Lathander started the Dawn Cataclysm. But Faiths & Pantheons (and other sources) suggest that Lathander did not arise until after the death of Amaunator. Amaunator we are told in Faiths & Avatars died roughly a thousand years after the fall of Netheril. If Netheril fell in -339 DR then that means Amaunator finally died from lack of worship circa 661 DR (give or take a few years), and thus Lathander could not have arisen before then, putting the mid 600's as an earliest limit on the DC.
But then again, it is mentioned (IIRC in Elminster Making of a Mage) that Lathander had temples in Athalantar sometime around 200 DR. So either Lathander arose before the death of Amaunator, or Amaunator was worshipped under the name of Lathander in Athalantar, a name which the newborn Morning Lord would take for his own at a later date, or possibly that just as the sun can be high in the sky in one time zone and have set already in a different timezone, so too perhaps could it have been that Amaunator yet clung to life in areas once part of Netheril, he might have been long dead already in different regions such as the Heartlands.
So all considered, not only do we have no definitive date for the DC, what dates we do have seem contradictory. We thus cannot possibly ascribe a specific date to the DC unless more information is revealed, and I am sure more tantalizing clues will show up in future sourcebooks.
Or we could just accept Eric Boyd's attractive idea that mythic time operates differently and outside of mortal time, and thus the DC can not really ever be pinned down to a point certain.
But it sure is fun to try. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 16:01:00
I've noted most, if not all, of them for the main entry regarding the "Dawn Cataclysm" in Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ.
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| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 15:40:49
OK, last question
Has anyone ever cataloged all the references to the Dawn Cataclysm ? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 15:24:57
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
oh, another thing, is it at least agreeded that Lathander initiated the Dawn Cataclysm (dawn = Lathander) becasue Lathander tried to wipe out all evilin the Realm's universe...and that he is trying it again?
Nominally started by Lathander, yes.
quote:
and wasn't it Moander's curruption that started to currupt Tyche and that Selune split her in two to save her?
For the most part, yes. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 15:20:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I thought in Secrets of the Magister (2E) it said that Azouth was the first magister which would place his ascention a century or two after the Fall of Netheril?
Secrets of the Magister says that the creation of the office of the Magister occured after the Dawn Cataclysm, whereupon Azuth become the first Magister. With the ascension of Shornthal as the second Magister in 136 DR, that suggests, as I said above, that the Dawn Cataclysm may have occured before 136 DR. However, we have other later sources which state alternate dates for the DC... again, making it difficult to ascertain a specific date for the Dawn Cataclysm itself.
Ahh, Thanks Sage
as the Magister has "harder" canon, I would think it would have more credibility than more vague references to legends and such...
I have also though, to help the R&D team, there is actually more than 1 event that has been termed "the Dawn Cataclysm" and so scholars in the Realms get it very mixed up... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 15:05:59
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba.
I thought in Secrets of the Magister (2E) it said that Azouth was the first magister which would place his ascention a century or two after the Fall of Netheril?
Secrets of the Magister says that the creation of the office of the Magister occured after the Dawn Cataclysm, whereupon Azuth become the first Magister. With the ascension of Shornthal as the second Magister in 136 DR, that suggests, as I said above, that the Dawn Cataclysm may have occured before 136 DR. However, we have other later sources which state alternate dates for the DC... again, making it difficult to ascertain a specific date for the Dawn Cataclysm itself.
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| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 14:59:04
oh, another thing, is it at least agreeded that Lathander initiated the Dawn Cataclysm (dawn = Lathander) becasue Lathander tried to wipe out all evilin the Realm's universe...and that he is trying it again?
and wasn't it Moander's curruption that started to currupt Tyche and that Selune split her in two to save her? |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 14:40:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba.
I thought in Secrets of the Magister (2E) it said that Azouth was the first magister which would place his ascention a century or two after the Fall of Netheril? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 13:44:16
Just to expand a little on Wooly's post...
You're never going to find a complete history of the Dawn Cataclysm, nor it's total effects. The most we have are bits and pieces scattered throughout the Realmslore. This is mostly due to the fact that writers at TSR/WotC haven't really attached much weight to the event.
What we have to base theories on --
Tyche likely split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm may have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there...
Interestingly, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm may have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. Depending upon how much focus you place on "presaged"... that could put the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century.
However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba.
Until we learn otherwise from WotC, I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it too much meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through.
Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
Now, as Wooly said above... the FRCS places the Schism in Tyche's church during the 8th century DR. That's where that date comes from. And, as I also mentioned above... we have references to Tyche after the Cataclysm, which kind of throws out the possible dates I mentioned above for the time of the Dawn Cataclysm.
We can therefore assume, to a degree, that Tyche split during the DC, and we know when the effects were felt in the Realms (and I'm sometimes of the opinion that perhaps the two new deities would start changing how they were worshipped almost immediately, though it would take the worshippers themselves a great deal of time to adjust, as Ed has said). Since Myth Drannor fell in the same century, and the DC presaged this fall, then it's quite reasonable to assume that the DC happened between 700 and 712 (or 714). But we don't know this for certain.
Then again... George did personally re-write that particular section in the FRCS. As I recall, before his re-write, that section on the Schism in the FRCS was ALL about the DC. George tells us that the writers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come so they changed it a little... writing something different.
From that perspective... the preferred date for the DC could then very well fall earlier than the 8th century DR... perhaps even in the early 100s DR or so, with the first real ramifications filtering through a few centuries or so later.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 11:27:34
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
While we're talking about it, is there a generally held period or era where the Dawn Cataclysm most likely fits? Obviously it's post-Netheril, post-Tyche's split, but pre-much of heavily recorded 'modern' history... any thoughts?
Well, the official stance is that it happened outside of time, and that because of that, you can't really put a date on it. I'm not a fan of this stance.
We do have some info, though. The Dawn Cataclysm is usually referred to as having heralded the fall of Myth Drannor. And in the FRCS, there's a reference to there being a schism in Tyche's church in 8th century DR -- and we know that her split came during the DC. So, putting those two factoids together and ignoring the out of time explanation, we can put the Dawn Cataclysm at sometime between 700 DR and either 712 (when Myth Drannor was attacked) or 714 DR (when it actually fell). |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 10:53:21
While we're talking about it, is there a generally held period or era where the Dawn Cataclysm most likely fits? Obviously it's post-Netheril, post-Tyche's split, but pre-much of heavily recorded 'modern' history... any thoughts? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 07:03:35
Erik is absolutely right. Ignoring the useless god stats, there is quite a bit of hitherto undetailed information which provokes thought and analysis. At least from my point of view.
-- George Krashos
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| Snow |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 01:16:09
Good obervation, Besshalar. That was precisely my thinking when I invented her for "Faiths & Pantheons." There are no Murdane references predating this book, because she did not exist prior to its publication. Essentially, I had to skirt around the issue of the Dawn Cataclysm, a period so catastrophic that the FR design team (at least at the time) had purposely not anchored it in history, to keep things mysterious.
That was all well and good, but when you're writing up the histories of the gods you've got to touch on some of it. Trouble was, there wasn't much about the Cataclysm in print. So I made stuff up, with the able advice of Eric Boyd.
I'm glad to see this tidbit getting some play. I really tried to hide a lot of gems in that book, and so many people discounted it as being a re-hash of the second edition deity trilogy that I began to worry if any of it would ever get noticed.
--Erik Mona
***
The above quote is by Erik Mona on a similar Murdane-themed thread over at WotC's FRCS forums. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 11:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ah, if only such deep thought went into such things! There I was wracking my brain trying to come up with a symbol for Murdane and my wife came up with the idea of circles, I picked three, which I then arranged concentrically. I confess I just thought it looked cool. But you can attach any deep meaning you like to it.
-- George Krashos
Well, it is a more obvious choice than Beshaba's antlers are... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 06:25:11
Ah, if only such deep thought went into such things! There I was wracking my brain trying to come up with a symbol for Murdane and my wife came up with the idea of circles, I picked three, which I then arranged concentrically. I confess I just thought it looked cool. But you can attach any deep meaning you like to it.
-- George Krashos
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| Snow |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 02:00:46
George, that's fantastic. Are you assigning significance to the 3 rings as representing reasoning, sensibleness, and deduction (your 3 portfolio choices)? Or do those rings have other meanings? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 01:03:41
Oh, it's reading something like this that makes me wish DRAGON had printed George's recent "Impiltur" article in its entirety.
Even her mention in the article would've been a real hoot!
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 01:03:07
Here is my take:
The Lady of Logic
The dead god Murdane was a lesser deity of reason and pragmatism worshipped primarily by the people of Jhaamdath. Also known as the Firstborn and the Daughter of Reason, her worship rose to prominence with the fall of Savras, and was ended only a short time later as gods reckon such matters, when the deity Lathander indirectly caused her destruction during the Dawn Cataclysm.
Today, evidence of her worship is noted only in ancient scholarly tomes or by reference to ancient temple ruins that can be found in the lands of the Vilhon Reach and other regions that were colonized in the Jhaamdathan diaspora. Clerics wishing to worship Murdane must take the Servant of the Fallen feat (see Lost Empires of Faerūn). Those who adopt Murdane as their patron deity should consult the table below and note that they can choose to either turn or rebuke undead and pray for their spells in the morning with the dawning of a new day. Their weapon of the deity (see Magic of Faerūn) is a +1 impact light hammer
Alignment: N
Symbol: Three concentric circles
Domains: Balance, Fate, Knowledge, Planning
Portfolio: Reasoning, sensibleness, deduction
Weapon: Light hammer
-- George Krashos
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