| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 05:37:05
My Champions of Ruin review
Ill start at the beginning in this case the cover. The cover art is awesome as is most of the art in the book gone are the days of those horrid Anmie pieces. The cover does however leave some questions.
The cover features a number of black dragons with riders rampaging through a town or village. It also seems there’s a number of female warriors helping them on the ground. One of the dragon riders carries a Shield with an the symbol of the orc god Shargaas. Although only one of the dragon riders seem to be a Orc. Also there doesn’t appear to be any mention of Shargaas in CoR, so I’m guessing its from material that was cut from the source book
Introduction
The book draws on a number of different sources books including some D&D books, which are not core ie the BOVD, the Draconomicon and Complete warrior.
Different types of Evil, the introductions describes different types of evil and gives examples of organizations that fit a given description (I like this better than the BOVD equivalent)
Races
The Draegloths description is good and contains quite a lot of interesting information especially regarding what they’ve been doing since WOSQ began.
Tools of Evil
Feats, Why is the initiate of Kossuth in CoR hes TN/LN not evil. Evil Brand made me wonder if the Old orthodox Banites who used to Tattoo their faces might have used this feat. By the way how come Loviator has access to Mystic Lash, it’s an Initiate of Bane only feat
Magic items
Some interesting items and I like the new Lore checks for being able to tell what the item is.
Prestige Classes
The Prestige classes choices a bit of a mixed bag
A couple that I really wasn’t fond of or didn’t see much use for
Black Blood Cultist, Im not sure why the designers gave us another non spell casting PrC devoted to malar when we’ve already got the Black Blood hunter in the PGTF sure the Black Blood cultist focuses on those Followers of Malar who aren’t Were creatures but I think the space for this PrC would have been better served for a 3ed version of the Talon (the Specialty Priests from F&A)
Shade hunter, when I first heard of this PrC I thought it would be a PrC designed for Shade characters; unfortunately this is not the case. In flavor terms Shade Hunter could best be described as an Evil Cultist of the shattered peak the difference being a Shade Hunter is trying to gain all the Netherese artifacts they can get for their own use instead of protecting them
Thayan Gladiator, I don’t know why the occupation of Thayan Gladiator needs a PrC it seems to have a rather limited use both Geographically and Campaign wise, unless your running a campaign focusing on Gladiators in Thay then your unlike to find much use for this PrC
Evil Organizations
Unfortunately all Evil organizations are not created evil in CoR. COR has an awesome new format for writing up organizations (which I hope they’ve used in COV) unfortunately only one of the organizations in CoR got the “Full treatment”. I particularly liked the Classes section and how each the player classes are viewed and used by the organization; the only organization that got this section was Eldreth Veluthra. I am disappointed that CoR didn’t really say anything further about the rift between the Cyricist and Banite Zhentarim.
Evil places
The Shrines section was one the most interesting part of this chapter, Shrines now grant clerics who perform rituals there certain tempary powers its sort of similar to the rituals in LOD of Darkness but the character doesn’t loose any XP
Champions of Evil and Encounters with Evil
These 2 Chapters are the Gems of CoR chocked full of interesting characters and Realms lore (Particularly Champions of Evil) my personal favorites are Soneillion and Daren Timbide
Conclusion, Id give Champions of Ruin a 6 out of 10 (it looses 2 points for the 35 pages its missing and another 2 for the PrCs) I got the impression reading CoR that there are sections of the book that are missing especially in the organizations chapter, I would not be surprised to hear that all the organizations got a write up like Eldreth Veluthra but WOTC editorial staff butchered it so he would fit into the 160 I mean 157 page source book
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| warlockco |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 09:37:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I'm stunned! Serpent Kingdoms was my favorite book from last year! I am still mining that book for ideas and discovering neat little bits of Realmslore.
I loved the Players Guide to Faerun too, of course, for all the planar information. But Serpent Kingdoms was really tops in my book for 2004 for all the great lore to be found within!
I would say that also. Serpent Kingdoms is definitely a favorite for me, as is the Shining South tome. These were the big FR hits for 2004 for me. But SK was the true winner of the pair, and it has completely revitalised my ideas about scalyfolk in the Realms.
I have to agree with that. And Underdark is another one of the 3E books that I like.
I have always loved the Drow since I first read about them in the 1E Unearthed Arcana. My first 4 books were the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, and Uearthed Arcana for 1st Edition.
This was before I even knew about them in the Fiend Folio or even heard of the Vault of the Drow. |
| Monsoon28 |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 09:35:34
I have to agree Shining South and Serpent Kingdoms were great, so much for me to work with and since I love Gold Dwarves, more lore for me to use.
That said I really wanted Champions of Ruin but now I'm not so sure, getting only 157 pages for what I use to get 194 is harder for me to swallow than a price increase. You say $32.95 is a psychological breaking point? Try Canada we've been dropping way more than that for ages. Now that I'm in Europe I'm still dropping 35 euros for a book. What I see is I'm paying the same price for a book filled with PrC's & Feats some of these reprints from other books, and important realmslore being left out. I mean how can you NOT have info on the Zhentarim? Or the war between Cyrists and Banites?
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 08:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I'm stunned! Serpent Kingdoms was my favorite book from last year! I am still mining that book for ideas and discovering neat little bits of Realmslore.
I loved the Players Guide to Faerun too, of course, for all the planar information. But Serpent Kingdoms was really tops in my book for 2004 for all the great lore to be found within!
I would say that also. Serpent Kingdoms is definitely a favorite for me, as is the Shining South tome. These were the big FR hits for 2004 for me. But SK was the true winner of the pair, and it has completely revitalised my ideas about scalyfolk in the Realms.
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 08:07:42
Hey, I just thought of something! There have only ever been 3 FR sourcebooks published each year since 2001.
This year is the first year they are actually publishing 4 FR books for us!
So Dargoth, maybe you could think of Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor together as a sigle 314 page book for $59.90. Does that appease your desire for higher page count if even for a higher price?
So I would humbly offer that WotC is actually giving us more pages of 3E Realmslore (albeit for more money of course) this year than they have in any previous year.
And that doesn't even count the FR adventures that they are publishing on top of that. Even more pages!
In fact I would argue that WotC has been better to FR fans this year than they have ever been before!  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 07:44:18
I'm stunned! Serpent Kingdoms was my favorite book from last year! I am still mining that book for ideas and discovering neat little bits of Realmslore.
I loved the Players Guide to Faerun too, of course, for all the planar information. But Serpent Kingdoms was really tops in my book for 2004 for all the great lore to be found within!
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:24:26
From last years crop I wasnt real keen on Serpent Kingdoms
For 2 Reasons
1) I dont use scallykind that much in my campaigns
2) I didnt like how the regions they covered where spread out all over the contient (Which was further agrivated by WOTC not including any maps in Serpents Kingdoms) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 03:40:26
Yep, I think that's the one. It's also mentioned in the Elf Eater's write-up in Powers & Pantheons, no?
-- George Krashos
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 02:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way theres appears to be an error in the Ityak-Ortheel write up the history section declares that the last time it appeared was in the Moonshae islands in 1365. This is incorrect as it appeared on Evermeet in 1371 (See Elaine Cunninghams novel Evermeet)
Oy! That is a big error. And here's a question...is that appearance that you mentioned on the Moonshaes the one in which King Zaor's twin sons disappeared? |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 02:57:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Is that a recent trend SB, or something that you and your players have always maintained?
I'd say for myself it started with 3rd edition. Back in my early days, I would buy anything that had Realms on it. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 23:07:00
By the way theres appears to be an error in the Ityak-Ortheel write up the history section declares that the last time it appeared was in the Moonshae islands in 1365. This is incorrect as it appeared on Evermeet in 1371 (See Elaine Cunninghams novel Evermeet) |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 22:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In fact, Wizards does publish a ton of free material on their website. They don't usally get complimented much for that but people should really be more expressive about how much they appreciate that material, because I for one make use of it all the time and am very pleased with all the great free material they offer. 
[disclaimer: I don't mean to go of on a rant or a flame below. It just reflects my opinion on the topic that just happend to be triggered by Gray's posting.]
Granted, they do publish a ton of stuff, and it is appreciated silently by many, or grumbling by those who'd have liked to see a tad more flesh on the sometimes bare-bones Realms articles. [Ed's colums are the usual exception here.]
Yes, I know more freedom for the DMs to play with - but as complained about elsewhere on the forums and masterfully illustrated by George Krashos - when it comes to Realms products, they ought to contain REALMSLORE, not just a minor reference that very superficially ties it to FR.
I would have no problem at all buying a 160 page book at the current price level, but I wish that more of the material that was edited out would be made available on-line as web-enhancements or some such.
WOTC started out ok-ish just after FR was converted to 3e with those web-enhancments, but that policy of customer satisfaction seems to have run into a brick wall (or whatever magical variant wall). Why?
Even if WOTC wanted to charge for downloading the extra stuff that was edited out, it would probably be worth it since the material has already been produced, it doesn't cost too much money to put it in a downloadable format and place it on a server...
And the side benefit - it targets that group of customers that WOTC wants to keep in its crosshairs [college, highschool age] since that group has probably the most internet access of all FR customers...
I agree whole-heartedly. I am also more than willing to pay some extra
money for more quality Realmslore - even for PDFs available for download.
It is indeed true that many of the web articles published on the WoTC
website are only marginally associated with the Realms, and contain
very little (if any) relevant Realmslore (for example, just look at
some of the entries in Return to Undermountain- series). And it would be so easy to include small details in these descriptions...
George Krashos made an excellent point in his internet review of "Into the Dragon´s Lair"-module. George wrote (and this may not be a 100%
accurate quote) that instead of just making a major NPC´s or monster´s
items/treasure a boring and meaningless list, each item could contain
some Realmslore in its description.
For example: Instead of writing "a necklace of wrought gold (400 gp)"
you could write "a necklace of wrought gold, engraved with the
coat-of-arms of the Turcassan noble family, which was exiled from
Cormyr during king Duar´s reign cirka 400DR". Now that´s a more juicy
description with some tiny bit of Realmslore contained in it, giving the item both a history and also providing the characters with a possible plot hook (Who were the Turcassans, and why were they exiled? Perhaps there are still riches hidden in the now-ruined family manor/castle?)
|
| Snotlord |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 21:45:57
LOL... Nooo That Other Other Setting 
I've haven't yet had a chance to flipp through it, strange d20 books are sometimes hard to get around here (I live on a tiny rock in the arctic ocean, well almost). My local games shop favors WOTC and White Wolf books. Even Necromancer books are hard to get.
I've read good things about Midnight, although the "Evil Won" tagline sounds abit gimmicky. I'll look for it next week, when I check if CoR has arrived. I liked your Dungeon adventure btw. It's on my list for a future Silver Marches campaign. |
| Wil_Upchurch |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 20:11:16
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I have considered That Other Setting,
Midnight? You should probably wait for 2nd Edition to come out this summer.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 14:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
From last year? Shining South springs to mind. Although it was a well done product, I and my players have little interest in that area of Faerun.
Is that a recent trend SB, or something that you and your players have always maintained?
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 12:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
Which products? I liked them all, so I curious.
From last year? Shining South springs to mind. Although it was a well done product, I and my players have little interest in that area of Faerun.
This year, the product mentioned in this thread is one I doubt I will be buying after hearing comments from the scribes on here. |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:28:12
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Something that will be missing is my purchase if I'm not satisfied with a Realms product. I've skipped purchasing products last year, and will do so as well this year, if I'm not happy with what is being offered.
Which products? I liked them all, so I curious.
I too believe in voicing my opinion with my money. The last core D&D product I bought was the Fiend Folio (which was excellent btw)
I have considered That Other Setting, but I don't have the time to play it, so I have stayed away so far. I believe I'm gonna get the upcoming Spell Compendium, but thats probably it this year. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
The new prestige classes, feats etc are always going to be there, we may as well accept that.
Indeed as this product demonstrates, these areas will continue to get a good page count no matter the size of the tome.
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
With the current trend of less crunch I don't feel I am missing that much anyway
Something that will be missing is my purchase if I'm not satisfied with a Realms product. I've skipped purchasing products last year, and will do so as well this year, if I'm not happy with what is being offered. |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:11:02
No, no, no, I certainly hope not. Well written, well researched lore and sturdy hardbacks is the way to go. Superior production values is one of wotc advantages to the other d20 publishers, and it would be foolish to throw that away IMO.
I hope that wotc increase the pagecount when the market is more willing to accept a 35-40 USD pricetag for a niche product like FR books.
The only flaws with my beloved Magic of Faerun and 3e Lords of Darkness is the fact that they are softcover, so please keep the current standard, even at a decreased pagecount.
With the current trend of less crunch I don't feel I am missing that much anyway |
| Reefy |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:03:39
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I would have happily payed an extra 3-4 Dollars for the 192 page book
I would also pay extra for additional pages of a quality Realms product I know I will find useful.
Concurs. And I fit into the university student bracket, for what it's worth.
My biggest gripe with the page cut is that the section of the book which will likely take the biggest hit is the Realmslore side of things. The new prestige classes, feats etc are always going to be there, we may as well accept that. But as a percentage of the book, they're going to be taking up a bigger one, meaning other things, things I'm more concerned about, will be cut. I don't have CoR but from what was said, I imagine in a 192 page book there would be more information on the Zhentarim etc. |
| tauster |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 10:57:52
if costs are the reason for the missing pages, then wizards could just use cheaper paper: print those realmslore not on the high gloss pages used for all FR products but on normal paper like tome&blood, sword&fist, etc. - or the one used in the good old times of 2e.
it´s as simple as that, imo. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 10:54:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I would have happily payed an extra 3-4 Dollars for the 192 page book
I would also pay extra for additional pages of a quality Realms product I know I will find useful. |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 08:43:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In fact, Wizards does publish a ton of free material on their website. They don't usally get complimented much for that but people should really be more expressive about how much they appreciate that material, because I for one make use of it all the time and am very pleased with all the great free material they offer.
[disclaimer: I don't mean to go of on a rant or a flame below. It just reflects my opinion on the topic that just happend to be triggered by Gray's posting.]
Granted, they do publish a ton of stuff, and it is appreciated silently by many, or grumbling by those who'd have liked to see a tad more flesh on the sometimes bare-bones Realms articles. [Ed's colums are the usual exception here.]
Yes, I know more freedom for the DMs to play with - but as complained about elsewhere on the forums and masterfully illustrated by George Krashos - when it comes to Realms products, they ought to contain REALMSLORE, not just a minor reference that very superficially ties it to FR.
I would have no problem at all buying a 160 page book at the current price level, but I wish that more of the material that was edited out would be made available on-line as web-enhancements or some such.
WOTC started out ok-ish just after FR was converted to 3e with those web-enhancments, but that policy of customer satisfaction seems to have run into a brick wall (or whatever magical variant wall). Why?
Even if WOTC wanted to charge for downloading the extra stuff that was edited out, it would probably be worth it since the material has already been produced, it doesn't cost too much money to put it in a downloadable format and place it on a server...
And the side benefit - it targets that group of customers that WOTC wants to keep in its crosshairs [college, highschool age] since that group has probably the most internet access of all FR customers... |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 08:08:36
"Particularly WotC's younger customers--college and highschool age or younger--who are vital to WotC's business strategy if they want to continue to bring in new players and grow the customer base."
Based on what Ive heard Id disagree
The average age of a D&D player is around 33 and an FR fan around the same ie there target Demographic arent College or High School Students
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 07:44:12
Well, even at 2% inflation that drives the price of a $30 book up to $32.47 within 4 years.
But price increases don't usually happen smoothly, they happen in fits and starts. One thing that has affected prices a lot lately is sky high gas prices. That factors into energy costs to press the books, ship the finished product and transport raw materials. It may even affect the price of inks if they are made from petroleum.
I have no trouble believing that inflation is starting to hit publishers harder of late.
Now I agree with you that I personally would pay a lot more for more pages of lore. However not everyone can afford such a price increase. Particularly WotC's younger customers--college and highschool age or younger--who are vital to WotC's business strategy if they want to continue to bring in new players and grow the customer base.
And lastly, I doubt they have cut tons of stuff. They probably comission by a given word count, so the authors probably turn in the amount that is asked for. If they did overwrite anything, perhaps they will include it in a nifty web enhancemnt.
In fact, Wizards does publish a ton of free material on their website. They don't usally get complimented much for that but people should really be more expressive about how much they appreciate that material, because I for one make use of it all the time and am very pleased with all the great free material they offer. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 07:28:26
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
But, I get to see lots of exciting and juicy stuff while it's in the pipeline. I guess that's payment enough when you think about it. I do.
-- George Krashos
I know that, were I in your position George, I'd see it the same way  .
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 07:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If previous source books are anything to go by WOTC frequently trims an FR source books down leaving much cut material that never sees the light of day. As for the money spent on the material thats cut, WOTC have already "wasted it" theyve already payed Eric Boyd/George Krasho/Ed Greenwood.
Some how I dont see Eric, Ed or George reacting well to WOTC saying "The editing department cut a third of the material we payed you for, please send us back a third of the paycheck we sent you"
 What?! You mean Eric and Ed get paid for the stuff they write?! Man, I gotta join a union ...
For the record, I don't write FR products and don't get paid for them - as it should be. I merely proofread and do research. But, I get to see lots of exciting and juicy stuff while it's in the pipeline. I guess that's payment enough when you think about it. I do.
-- George Krashos
|
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 07:22:32
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If previous source books are anything to go by WOTC frequently trims an FR source books down leaving much cut material that never sees the light of day. As for the money spent on the material thats cut, WOTC have already "wasted it" theyve already payed Eric Boyd/George Krasho/Ed Greenwood.
Some how I dont see Eric, Ed or George reacting well to WOTC saying "The editing department cut a third of the material we payed you for, please send us back a third of the paycheck we sent you"
Waitaminute. George got paid? Who told you that?!? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 06:08:59
In response to Gray
Inflation in both the US has been negliable for the 5+ years! In Australia its around 1 or 2% and Im pretty sure in the US its even lower
"I believe they were faced with the choice of either raising their price to $32.95 or cutting the page count in order to maintain the more attractive price point of $29.95."
If thats true Ill really be spitting chips! I would have happily payed an extra 3-4 Dollars for the 192 page book
"It seems that $30 is a psychological breaking point where the book just feels too expensive for people to buy."
Thats pure rubbish, Australians have been paying 30 plus dollars for WOTC source books since the 2ed came out!
"The 32 pages were the sad sacrifice that had to be made at the altar to the great Marketing gods."
You mean 35 pages of Sacrificed Realmslore the wasted another 3 pages of COR 160 by with ads at the back of the book
"Dargoth, it is not fair to say that WotC is cheating you somehow by trimming the page count of their books, because if they had included those extra pages you would have paid more money for the book. The price was going to be paid one way or another. I think they made the best choice they could to sacrifice pages over increased price."
As Ive already said I would have had less of a problem with a price increase then the page cut
"It would certainly not be fair to demand that WotC just give you the pages for free at a loss to themselves. If WotC cannot remain profitable then they can't keep putting out the books that we love and pay their authors to write great Realmslore."
Why not?
If previous source books are anything to go by WOTC frequently trims an FR source books down leaving much cut material that never sees the light of day. As for the money spent on the material thats cut, WOTC have already "wasted it" theyve already payed Eric Boyd/George Krasho/Ed Greenwood.
Some how I dont see Eric, Ed or George reacting well to WOTC saying "The editing department cut a third of the material we payed you for, please send us back a third of the paycheck we sent you"
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 05:04:40
Look, I don't think that is a fair thing to hold against WotC. The Elder Eternal Evil of the publishing world has barred it's venomous teeth against the good Wizards, and that monster's name is inflation.
I believe they were faced with the choice of either raising their price to $32.95 or cutting the page count in order to maintain the more attractive price point of $29.95.
I think WotC made the decision to keep the price at $29.95 in order to keep the price down for us, the consumers, and also for business reasons because they thought they would sell more books at that price. It seems that $30 is a psychological breaking point where the book just feels too expensive for people to buy.
The 32 pages were the sad sacrifice that had to be made at the altar to the great Marketing gods.
Dargoth, it is not fair to say that WotC is cheating you somehow by trimming the page count of their books, because if they had included those extra pages you would have paid more money for the book. The price was going to be paid one way or another. I think they made the best choice they could to sacrifice pages over increased price.
It would certainly not be fair to demand that WotC just give you the pages for free at a loss to themselves. If WotC cannot remain profitable then they can't keep putting out the books that we love and pay their authors to write great Realmslore.
But I don't mind paying the price to purchase fine Realms books. I just think of it as the gate tax that allows me entry into the wonderful world of the Forgotten Realms. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 03:36:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Sure your getting an extra 64 pages with 4 books but WOTC are getting an extra 19.77 USD out of you for those 64 pages
You an accountant, Dargoth?
-- George Krashos
Nope
I just want 4x 192 Pages of Realms lore not 4x 160 pages, WOTC are after all still charging us the same price for 160 page book as they are for the old 192 page books |
