| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 10:55:56
Well met
Please discuss herein the upcoming Realms tome, Champions of Ruin. Eric L Boyd is one of the authors of the product, please pen any questions herein (if you're permitted to discuss this presently of course, Eric).
Eric, what level of information and coverage can we expect to see for evil fiends and organizations? Which organizations will be covered in this product? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ze |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 11:54:40
Hi guys.
Reanimating an old scroll just to ask the authors something I did not find around.
Who wrote the part about Horrsin Zespar, the Extaminaar?
I plan to use her in my Waterdeep campaign (though I'll adapt her connections), so I was just curious who's her author.
Btw this character is one of the very few searches that give NO results here in Candlekeep!
Not very popular, it seems. Poor girl. 
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 23:33:36
quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
Hmm, I don't know if this has been posted before. (Since I don't wan't to read through all the 12 pages of posts to check).
But has any one thought that the story about how the Chaos hound is chained (page. 146)is a straight rip-of of the Nordic mythology conserning the Fenris ulv. Rather dissepointing that they can't create their own legend.
Besides that it's a nice book. All though it doesn't add much new information it expands the existing one rather nicely.
Ah, but how do we know the tale of Fenris biting off Tyr's hand in Norse mythology isn't a rip-off of what happened in the Realms? |
| Hymn |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 21:58:36
Hmm, I don't know if this has been posted before. (Since I don't wan't to read through all the 12 pages of posts to check).
But has any one thought that the story about how the Chaos hound is chained (page. 146)is a straight rip-of of the Nordic mythology conserning the Fenris ulv. Rather dissepointing that they can't create their own legend.
Besides that it's a nice book. All though it doesn't add much new information it expands the existing one rather nicely. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 03:45:05
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Finally got myself a copy of CoR today...
I have one question though. When I got BoVD, there was this big warning saying something like "Mature Audiences Only!" because of all the "evil stuff" inside. I'm wondering why CoR did not have such warnings since it's like Forgotten Realm's version of BoVD?
Just want to make it clear that I do not think CoR should even have such a warning label. In fact, I don't even think BoVD should have had it either, as that's just dumb. I brought it up because it was an interesting point as the two sourcebooks seem to discuss a similar issue.
I think it was more of a disclaimer of any liability, since the Book of Vile Darkness could be considered to "promote" evil and acts of evil.
i.e. legal deniability for anything that some idiot tries to do after reading the book. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 01:59:56
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Finally got myself a copy of CoR today...
I have one question though. When I got BoVD, there was this big warning saying something like "Mature Audiences Only!" because of all the "evil stuff" inside. I'm wondering why CoR did not have such warnings since it's like Forgotten Realm's version of BoVD?
Well, CoR doesn't have nearly the "mature" material that BoVD had. BoVD, was, after all, the "Complete Evil Handbook". CoR is more of a "Baddies of the Realms" book. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 00:40:29
Finally got myself a copy of CoR today...
I have one question though. When I got BoVD, there was this big warning saying something like "Mature Audiences Only!" because of all the "evil stuff" inside. I'm wondering why CoR did not have such warnings since it's like Forgotten Realm's version of BoVD?
Just want to make it clear that I do not think CoR should even have such a warning label. In fact, I don't even think BoVD should have had it either, as that's just dumb. I brought it up because it was an interesting point as the two sourcebooks seem to discuss a similar issue. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 05:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Quite true, was really nice when you could just "make-up stuff" without thoughts or concerns about "balance" issues. One could technically do so with the 3.x rules set, but it tends to get trickier.
You can make stuff up just as easily in Third Edition.
The rules even tell you exactly how to do it.
As for stat blocks, they're more advanced in Third Edition because the rules do a far better job of stating up an NPC's abilities and characteristics.
Regardless, most DMs I know can knock out low and mid level 3.X NPCs in a few minutes (when they don't just flat borrow from the pre-stated up NPCs in the DMG) and can build important high level NPCs in about a half-hour to an hour.
"Throw Away" high level NPCs take less time on average.
The learning curve simply isn't that high for 3.X.
After looking at Soneillon's stat block, I too saw the errors. That's very dissapointing because the strength of 3.X is that it's designed to accurately represent NPC/Creature abilities via game mechanics.
About the only error I saw in Simbul's analysis vis-a-vis other Succubi was the lack of any consideration for Soneilon's reputation amongst her kind. But that's minor at best. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 04:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, I promise that if I ever have a hand in any official sourcebook detailing Impiltur that I'll make sure she's statted properly. Until then, I guess I'll keep the realmslore and defer to those with a much better grasp of game mechanics than I (which means just about everyone!).
-- George Krashos
Don't feel bad George, after playing 3/3.5e for five years, I still can't grasp the mechanics and I defer replies like that to others while I answer lore questions because lore is more important to me for NPC's then stats.
And it's the same for me as well.
I usually try to avoid most mechanics-based scrolls, simply because I don't have the patience required for completely understanding most of the 3e game rules. I've learned what's necessary for my campaigns, and that is about it.
I'm happier with the Realmslore...  .
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 00:02:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Quite true Kuje, but you figured things like that would have been "weeded out" by now.  Or is that just too much to hope for?
I dunno, I think it'll be harder in 3/3.5e because the stat blocks are so much harder to stat up. You said it yourself, "In 2e I can rattle off a stat block in a hour without the PHB, now I need the PHB each time and it takes me hours."
Quite true, was really nice when you could just "make-up stuff" without thoughts or concerns about "balance" issues. One could technically do so with the 3.x rules set, but it tends to get trickier. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 23:44:40
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Quite true Kuje, but you figured things like that would have been "weeded out" by now. Or is that just too much to hope for?
I dunno, I think it'll be harder in 3/3.5e because the stat blocks are so much harder to stat up. You said it yourself, "In 2e I can rattle off a stat block in a hour without the PHB, now I need the PHB each time and it takes me hours." |
| warlockco |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 21:50:15
Quite true Kuje, but you figured things like that would have been "weeded out" by now. Or is that just too much to hope for? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:37:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Don't feel bad George, after playing 3/3.5e for five years, I still can't grasp the mechanics and I defer replies like that to others while I answer lore questions because lore is more important to me for NPC's then stats.
Ditto... As I've said more than once when it comes to characters, give me a concept. That's the hard part. Anyone can come up with numbers.
Though, to be fair, Alassra does bring up a valid point. It doesn't make sense to waste space on a stat block when it's not accurate. This isn't the first time we've seen this from WotC.
It's not like TSR was better. I've teared my hair out sometimes going through these sourcebooks. For example: In one Zakhara sourcebook, an elf turns to human, then flip the page he's an elf again but he's 5 levels lower!
There were other such errors, that I recall, in the North as well. :) Poeple changing sex/race/losing levels and then gaining them back, etc. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:21:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Don't feel bad George, after playing 3/3.5e for five years, I still can't grasp the mechanics and I defer replies like that to others while I answer lore questions because lore is more important to me for NPC's then stats.
Ditto... As I've said more than once when it comes to characters, give me a concept. That's the hard part. Anyone can come up with numbers.
Though, to be fair, Alassra does bring up a valid point. It doesn't make sense to waste space on a stat block when it's not accurate. This isn't the first time we've seen this from WotC. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 17:59:24
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, I promise that if I ever have a hand in any official sourcebook detailing Impiltur that I'll make sure she's statted properly. Until then, I guess I'll keep the realmslore and defer to those with a much better grasp of game mechanics than I (which means just about everyone!).
-- George Krashos
Don't feel bad George, after playing 3/3.5e for five years, I still can't grasp the mechanics and I defer replies like that to others while I answer lore questions because lore is more important to me for NPC's then stats. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 17:06:39
Good points, Simbul! My gaming group still plays 3e instead of 3.5, and that may be why I missed those mistakes with NPCs. I do not usually look at them, until I decide to use a particular NPC (except, perhaps, when using their stats, feats and items as a reference for a similar NPC).
I agree that if you have five pages of information about a particular NPC, I would prefer to have all five of them containing useful fluff instead of any space reserved for a stat block filled with mistakes.
Thank you for pointing them out - I trusted them to be accurate for all the NPCs, and probably would have never checked those feats, levels, and skill points  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 16:41:02
Well, I promise that if I ever have a hand in any official sourcebook detailing Impiltur that I'll make sure she's statted properly. Until then, I guess I'll keep the realmslore and defer to those with a much better grasp of game mechanics than I (which means just about everyone!).
-- George Krashos
|
| The Simbul |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 07:04:16
Yes, it was very good realmslore Krash, but if I cant use the NPC's stat block then those other five pages of lore devoted to that NPC are simply useless for the purpose they serve.
I got the book knowing that a majority of its content; prestige classes, feats, spells, epic spells with too high DCs for anyone to cast, etc would not appeal to me. But I wanted updated information on BBEGs I have used in previous editions for my campaigns, and additional powerful villains I can use who arent the de-facto leaders of powerful realms or whose demise at the hands of the PCs wont be world-shattering, and I was willing to buy a whole book for it. Unlike many powerful NPCS, these particular characters are re-useable, and if they die they can easily return and the fate of nations or regions wont collapse in their absence. If Eltab dies he goes to yet another Demoncyst, If Aumvor is slain well boo-hoo, now he only has 248 phylacteries left. In Soneillon bites the dust the only visible consequence to the realms will be that Impilitur wont have any organized Hobgoblin raids for a while, and their nobles will only delve into corrupt and immoral behaviour of their own accord.
Really good adherence to the rules but very poor lore can be equally as bad as really good lore but really bad adherence to the rules.
Seriously, Soneillon is charismatic enough to corrupt legions of nobles and royals to evil, and turned a former paladin king into her little puppet. A normal Succubus has a +12 modifer to Diplomacy. Eltab has a +39 modifier to Diplomacy. Imbrar, despite being Soneillon's now eternal puppet, has a +21 modifier to Diplomacy. Meanwhile Soneillion doesnt have any ranks in the skill or a listed modifier for it at all. If she had the ability score array and skill points she was entitled to under the core rules and the rules for monstrous and epic characters, then Soneillon's Charisma score could be upwards of 36 (40 with Coronation Crown) and her total Diplomacy modifier could be as high as +54 (27 ranks, +15 CHA bonus, +6 synergy bonus [5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge nobility, and Sense Motive], +6 epic synergy bonus [25 ranks in Bluff , Knowledge nobility, and sense motive]).
In her listed form, any Succubi you call with a Lesser Planar Binding Spell can out-negotiate Soneillon in virtually any Charisma based opposed check. It is a bit like having a 1st level Adept who can chain counterspell Elminster any day of the week. That is just not right....
I am not trying to be overly critical, or one of those "haha look what they messed up on now" people, but right now I feel like a kid who paid 29.95 for a Happy Meal -not for the molded chicken nuggets or the fattening fries- but just for the toy; and opened the box to find that it was broken.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 05:43:00
Good realmslore though, eh Simbul? I didn't even read the stats.
-- George Krashos
|
| The Simbul |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 03:46:12
I bought the book soley for the Champions of Evil chapter, and because of the exceptional number of errors in that chapter I am sorry to say I plan to return it for a refund later in the week once I complete my notes for errata suggestions. I have NEVERreturned an RPG book before, even the horrendous Races of Destiny that managed to fill its page count by finding 100 ways to comment on the adaptability and versatility of humans, or the social prowess of Half-Elves...
The errors in some of the NPC stat blocks range from miniscule, like Eltab's being able to "Teleport without Error" in 3.5, to utterly appauling, as in Soneillion's random assortment of numbers that dont make for a CR 23 encounter
To elaborate further;
Aumvor the Undying
His stat block doesnt follow the Epic Advancement rules, and if it did, then he wouldnt meet the prerequisites for the Netherese Arcanist prestige class. If a Necromancer15/Archmage5 gains 7 epic levels, and places them in the Wizard class, he is not a Nec15/Acm5/Epic Wizard 7, he is a Nec22/Acm5. He uses the Epic Attack and Epic Save bonus progressions, but he is not an "Epic Wizard" until he has a full 20+ levels in the Wizard class. While he does gain access to an epic feat every three character levels beyond 20th, he does not recieve any bonus epic wizard feats (which are gained at Wizard class level 23 and every three Wizard class levels thereafter), and as such he cannot attain all of the epic feats he needs to become a Netherese Arcanist when he actually enters the prestige class (after 27th level).
If his Archmage levels were nixed, and replaced with additional Wizard levels, then he would have the number of epic feat slots and bonus epic feat slots to have Improved Spell Capacity 10-13 and Improved Metamagic in time to enter the Netherese Arcanist PrC by level 28 and max it out by level 32.
In addition, he is missing all of his bonus 10th-13th spell slots gained from a high INT score (see the Epic Level Handbook or the Epic Feats section of 3.5 System Reference Document). If he were made simply using the Epic Sidebar in the FRCS, then he would only have one spell slot of each of those spell levels, but he references the Epic Rules, which grant access to bonus spells for a high INT score for each of those spell levels.
Soneillon Queen of Whispers
The stat block for Soneillon, Queen of Whispers is a whirlwind of statistical errors. Somehow I like to imagine that the version that was printed was somehow a rough draft that accidentally was sent to the typsetter by mistake. Minor errors are easily ignored or rectified by a DM, but the gaping holes in her stat block are obscene.
Ability scores
1) Soneillon is an "Improved Monster" (see MM 3.5). While monsters who simply advance their HD or add a template can get away with retaining their normal ability scores, all monsters who are improved by adding class levels are supposed to have the elite ability score array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) arranged into each stat as they like, with their racial ability modifiers added, which in the case of a Succubus are STR +2, DEX +2, WIS +2, INT +6, WIS +4, CHA +16 (see Adding Class levels section under Advanced Monster Challenge Rating in the calculating CR section of Improving Monsters). Monsters with NPC class levels use the non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Soneillon has prestige class levels, which are virtually unheard of for Monsters except in the case of truly unique NPCs. She should have the elite ability score array plus her racial modifiers, but she doesn’t, in fact she doesn’t even have the minimum ability scores of a normalsuccubus.
2) As an advanced monster with 24 total HD (18 more than the base creature), she is entitled to 4 or 5 ability score adjustment points; yet she has received none of them.
3) Her STR, DEX, and CON scores are actually lower than those of a normal Succubus, whilst her INT WIS and CHA scores are equal. That basically means that her starting ability score array was weaker than that of a 1st level Commoner, yet somehow she rose to the power and prestige of an ECL 30 Unique NPC.
Skills: A character with her monstrous HD, class levels, and her INT score should have 225 skill points. Reverse-calculating her skill ranks from her listed skill modifiers (by removing racial bonuses and ability score bonuses) shows that she is missing 140+ some odd skill points. Simply comparing her skill modifiers to the skill modifiers of a standard Succubus in the MM makes the gaping absence appallingly clear, even without using math.
In addition, due to her lack of sufficient skill ranks, she does not qualify for at least one of her prestige classes.
Feats: Soneillon has more feats than her total character level (HD + Class levels) allows. In addition, because her ability scores are incorrect for an advanced by class monster of her race and CR, she does not meet the prerequisites for at least 5 of her listed feats (Dodge, Mobility, Flyby Attack, Improved Flyby Attack, Quick Change).
Special Attacks/Special Qualities: Soneillion’s monstrous abilities appear to come from the 3.0 version of the Succubus, mainly since they either worded incorrectly or are missing many features from 3.5. Teleport without Error is not a spell in 3.5, Suggestion and Polymorph (humanoid forms only, unlimited duration) should be in her list of at-will spell-like abilities. Energy Drain is supposed to have a suggestion effect to make the victim want another kiss, the save DCs for her abilities are incorrectly calculated, the minimum SR for a normal Succubus is 18, whereas Soneillon’s is only 12, and probably should be higher than even a normal succubus since she is an advanced creature. A succubus’s damage reduction is not bypassed by “+2 magic weapons”; it is bypassed by cold iron or good weapons, or perhaps in her case her DR should require both properties in a single weapon to bypass since she is an advanced epic tanari character.
As for her class abilities, they should have been listed and detailed in full. If 5 pages are going to be devoted to a single NPC, and a full stat block is going to be given for them, then the full stat block should be listed. Basically her stat block is worthless to anyone who doesnt own the Fiend Folio. In most cases where a stat block references material from a more obscure book, its fine to have a few feats, spells, or items in an NPC stat block that are not from the core books, since a DM who doesn’t have access to that single feat, spell, or item can still make use of the NPC without access to it. 90% of Soneillion’s power as a character comes from her class abilities. If they aren’t going to be even remotely touched on in her stat block (Wedonai is a fiend of corruption, but has all his abilities listed in LEoF), then for all intents and purposes we would have been better off with: “Soneillon, Queen of Whispers (CE female advanced succubus fiend of corruption 6/fiend of possession6)” with the rest of the space devoted to fluff information, or maybe more background for Malkizid.
In addition, Soneillion’s listed consort/cohort appears to be missing a subtancial number of skill points as well.
The rest of the NPC stat blocks may have errors as well, probably less severe, but by this point I am sorry to say I am a bit too dissapointed to bother looking.
|
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 08:22:26
Just a snippet from a report from GENCON which sounds very interesting:
quote:
Another interresting tidbit that came from the session has to do with the book Champions of Valor. Take a close look at the cover when you get a chance to see it. If possible, look at the cover of Champions of Ruin at the same time. As Bill Slavicseck put it, "If you look closely, you'll see the heroes are kicking the ass of the villians from Champions of Ruin."
The full report is here. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 10:22:34
My biggest gripe with the book so far, after taking a look at the Monster Class progression for the Draegloth, is there seems to be several glaring errors in it.
Nothing in the progression about when the 3rd and 6th HD feats are supposed to be taken, is one notable example.
Never really bothered looking at the Draegloth, until someone on the WotC boards had asked some questions while theirs was being shipped to them. Since I personally don't care for them much. |
| elven_songstress |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 06:11:04
Well I have this book now and it's alright I think it's pretty good for what it's for made a really kick butt half orc enemy for my PC's...*lol* |
| Reefy |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 00:45:54
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
No one ever said a Fanatic had to make sense.
And one might easily be more surprised is a fanatic did make sense. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 22:16:45
No one ever said a Fanatic had to make sense. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 20:07:41
They might, but it's not like the members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are walking around with badges proclaiming their membership, and even if the seldarine "strongly hinted" (although, doesn't not granting the divine spellcaster-members' spells count as a fairly strong hint?) the EV seems to be made up from the kind of fanatics that wouldn't take the hint, anyway.
Furthermore, they're not exactly a large organisation - about 100 members according to Lords of Darkness (although I'd have them at 150-200 based on the information in Champions of Ruin), and they're highly secretive , so I'm just not sure that anything short of the entire Seldarine descending from their deific plane and telling each member, in person, that he/she has been a bad boy/girl and should stop with this human-killing nonsense pronto. |
| khorne |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Yes Sheverash has Evil clerics, but he is Anti-Drow not Anti-Human, also Corellon himself does not approve of the EV, and thus the entire Seldarine abides by his wishes and none of the Seldarine will aid the EV.
And the EV haven`t noticed the fact that all of their gods have basically given them the finger?
They have noticed, but their cause is so "just" that they don't care.
Great, the elven version of the ku klux klan. Can`t the seldarine just "strongly hint" the elves through their clerics that the EV are persona non grata? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 10:20:15
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Yes Sheverash has Evil clerics, but he is Anti-Drow not Anti-Human, also Corellon himself does not approve of the EV, and thus the entire Seldarine abides by his wishes and none of the Seldarine will aid the EV.
And the EV haven`t noticed the fact that all of their gods have basically given them the finger?
They have noticed, but their cause is so "just" that they don't care. |
| khorne |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 09:57:36
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Yes Sheverash has Evil clerics, but he is Anti-Drow not Anti-Human, also Corellon himself does not approve of the EV, and thus the entire Seldarine abides by his wishes and none of the Seldarine will aid the EV.
And the EV haven`t noticed the fact that all of their gods have basically given them the finger? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 00:01:48
Yes Sheverash has Evil clerics, but he is Anti-Drow not Anti-Human, also Corellon himself does not approve of the EV, and thus the entire Seldarine abides by his wishes and none of the Seldarine will aid the EV. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 19:32:43
Well, I got it, and I like it. The PrCs are very good -- I like this new way of writing them up, showing how they fit in to the world and including both low and high level members of said classes.
The races aren't so very much to me, but they're okay.
The section on Power groups was probably the best from my PoV. I like the info on bloodthirsty elven barbarians worshipping Malar in Cormanthyr, together with evil weretigers no less. And they remembered Kiaransalee's cult too! (Lolth can go hang, the other drow deities are what do it for me.) Though I am surprised to read about Malar's elven worshippers, considering how much he hates the elves. Maybe in CoV we'll read about First Orc Church of Moradin? ;)
I liked the additional info on the Cult of the Dragon's activities, as well as the Eldreth Veluuthra (evil non-drow elves, yes!). But one thing I'd like to ask about -- we're told that the EV doesn't have access to healing or clerical magic as there aren't any evil elven gods, yet Shevarash the Avenger does have some evil clergy. Why doesn't the EV recruit some of Shevarash's priests -- or are they all too busy killing drow to revenge elfdom on humans? |
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